Coraggio Consulting
Loudoun County Board of Supervisors, Transportation and Land Use Committee, Monday, December 18, 2023

Date: Monday, December 18, 2023
Place: Board Room, First Floor, Government Center, 1 Harrison Street SE, Leesburg, Virginia
Length: 1h 41m (video)
Official meeting video (county, Granicus): https://loudoun.granicus.com/player/clip/7526
Agenda (Granicus): https://loudoun.granicus.com/AgendaViewer.php?view_id=73&clip_id=7526

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-21. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:08:10] Let's get started with the Transportation and Land Use Committee meeting. I'd like to call to order the December 18, 2023 Transportation and Land Use Committee meeting. This room has a hearing loop. If you need hearing assistance, switch your hearing aids to the telecoil mode. If you need a headset, we have those available as well.

[00:08:26] Please see the clerk to request one. I always start off with a little piece of trivia and useless information. This is not so useless since it's in the news. I'll explain what you're hearing when you're in the news. A lot of discussion about dropping dumb bombs in the Gaza Strip.

[00:08:42] A dumb bomb is a non-laser-guided bomb. A laser-guided bomb is a 500-pound or 2,000-pound bomb that has a guidance package that sees the laser beam on the nose, and it's got a set of fins on the back so it can fly to where the laser beam is. It's very precise. Generally speaking, if you drop a laser-guided bomb from altitude with energy, 15,000, 20,000 feet, so it's constantly accelerating as it drops, you can hit your pinpoint target with plus or minus 10 feet.

[00:09:08] A dumb bomb is simply a Mark 82 or Mark 84, either 500-pound or 2,000-pound bomb, and it's just that. It has no guidance package on it at all. It's a piece of iron and a bunch of explosive tritonol inside of it. And when you drop it off the airplane, it goes where it's going. You can't guide it at all.

[00:09:25] In the more advanced systems like the F-16s, like the Israelis have, they have what's called a continuous computing impact point. And on its heads-up display, it shows a little airplane, it shows a line, it shows what's the CCIP is a dot at the bottom of that line. And what it's saying is based on the computer calculations, if you drop a bomb, at this moment, it will hit that dot where the dot was when you dropped that bomb.

[00:09:47] The problem with unguided munitions is if you're dropping a string of six, that string might be 300 feet long. So you'll have a 500-pound bomb every 60, 70 feet in that string. You could also drop at salvo where you just drop them all, but then they'll disperse as they fall.

[00:10:05] I don't think I ever saw a single scenario in 24 years in the Air Force and in 11 years flying fighters where we would employ unguided munitions in an urban, civilian, populated area. I never saw that scenario. We never planned for that scenario, and I never saw it.

[00:10:23] So I won't go any further with the political analysis, but it's important. When you hear dumb bombs being dropped in the Gaza Strip in urban, populated areas, they are truly dumb bombs. Once it's off the airplane, it's going to go where it goes. So with that rather unpleasant little piece of trivia, please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance.

[00:10:40] Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[00:10:57] Thank you all very much. We actually have a consent agenda at tonight's TELIC meeting. The proposed consent agenda is as follows. Item number two, Heritage Commission Annual and End of Term Report, 2011-2022 countywide. Item number three, the Transit Advisory Board bylaws amendment request to add local nonprofit human services agency representative of 2011 and 2022 countywide.

[00:11:22] Is there a motion to move the consent agenda or to adopt the consent agenda? Supervisor Glass moved. Is there a second? A second. Supervisor Kirshner is a second. Consent agenda moved by Supervisor Glass, seconded by Supervisor Kirshner.

[00:11:40] Any discussion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Aye. The motion passes 3-0-2, and we'll now move on to the information items. The first information item is the unmet housing needs strategic plan, first quarter FY24 update. No pressure at all, everyone, but you're standing between me and a hamburger.

[00:12:06] Just thought I'd mention it. I was late. I got mine done. Good evening, Chair Turner, members of the board. I'm John Hall, Director for the Department of Housing and Community Development.

[00:12:24] This evening, I'm joined by one of our newest employees, Randy Collins, who is our housing policy administrator technically she wouldn't be in the update until the second quarter but i didn't want to delay we were very excited to have her here followed with her staff member christine hillock who is our housing initiatives project manager they will be given tonight's presentation and then we will be available for any questions that you have okay

[00:13:08] thank you mr hall um good evening chair turner members of the committee um as mr hall said my name is christine hillock and i'm the housing industries project manager with dhcd tonight i will provide the first quarter fiscal year 24 report on implementation of the unmet housing needs strategic plan this is the seventh update to tlock regarding the plan which was approved by the board in september of 2021. during the past two years since the adoption of the plan the board and staff have taken many important steps in plan implementation and much progress has been made towards achieving the county's attainable housing goals attachment one to tonight's item includes

[00:13:44] progress updates for each of the 76 key actions in the short term or one to two year time frame and adds reporting for the first time on the 45 key actions in the intermediate term or between the second and fourth year time frame reporting on the 12 key actions in the long term or fourth and fifth years time frame will begin in fiscal year 2025 the next three slides tonight provide a brief summary of significant plan related actions for the first quarter of fiscal

[00:14:20] year 2024 below each item you will see noted the unmet housing needs strategic plan strategy which is associated with the activity first on july 12 2023 the board approved a substantial amendment to the county's five-year consolidated plan and annual action plan to include the home investment Partnerships grant award and to amend high-priority funding activities. Home funds in the amount of $515,632 will support tenant-based rental assistance, down payment and closing cost assistance, and a HUD-required reserve for a community housing development organization.

[00:14:59] Next, on August 29, 2023, the county issued a request for proposals for the preservation of affordable housing, displacement support, and homeless prevention and diversion services for DHCD and the Department of Family Services. The RFP solicited bidders to manage funds allocated to the county from the American Rescue Plan Act, or ARPA. Then on October 3rd, 2023, due to increases in eviction case filings, the board approved a reallocation of $500,000 from the $1.5 million

[00:15:33] in ARPA funds allocated in the RFP for program number three which is housing preservation for households with eviction filings. Utilizing a separate smaller competitive process this reallocation allowed for a more immediate disbursement of funds to help prevent evictions prior to hypothermia season this winter. Loudon Cares was selected as the non-profit partner to administer the immediate eviction prevention funds and the program opened on November 21st 2023. The eviction prevention funds and, sorry, the procurement process for the remainder of the

[00:16:09] funds is being finalized now, and it is expected that the additional funds will be made available to the community in spring of 2024. And then the last significant action that we would like to highlight is that on September 19th, the board approved a pool of 13 certified developers for the Rental Housing Acquisition and Preservation, or RHAP, loan program for calendar year 2023 to 2024. The group of developers is now eligible to apply to the RHAP loan program for gap financing for the next 12 months, following board approval for the acquisition and preservation of existing

[00:16:46] multifamily rental developments in order to preserve market affordable housing and rent restricted housing in danger of conversion to market rate. There is approximately $5 million currently restricted for use by the RHAP program. Within the plan, attainable housing goals are defined as any housing for sale or rent entering the marketplace each year affordable to households with incomes at or below 100% of the area median income. 100% of AMI for a family of four in Loudoun

[00:17:18] County is currently $152,100. The plan sets a goal that 20% or approximately 8,200 of forecasted new homes by 2040, as projected based on land use policies in the 2019 comprehensive plan, will be attainable housing. In addition, the plan sets a goal to preserve or create access to approximately 7,800 units for a grand total of 16,000 attainable units by 2040. This slide shows the county's attainable housing goals through 2026, as well as the number of new units created

[00:17:56] and access to units achieved for the first three years of the plan. The slides were prepared at the request of the committee in September and show that while the county has not met targets, there were significant increases between 2022 and 2023 and we expect that upward trend to continue in future years. This slide shows the number of new units and units added through access for the first quarter of fiscal year 2024. During the first quarter, 29 access opportunities were provided and 12 new attainable units were added to the supply. During the first quarter, new units were

[00:18:35] added through the affordable dwelling unit purchase program and access units were provided through a variety of programs, including the ADU Rental Program, ADU Purchase Resales, new leases at rental communities supported through the Affordable Multifamily Housing Loan Program, the State Rental Assistance Program for individuals with developmental disabilities, and loans offering lower interest rates through the Sponsoring Partnerships and Revitalizing Communities, or SPARC, program.

[00:19:03] We would like to note that there will be an uptick in access units beginning in the second quarter, due in large part to the opening of Loudoun County's Housing Choice Voucher Waitlist on October 5th, 2023, which was just the very beginning of second quarter. This was the first time that the Loudoun County Waitlist had been opened in over a decade, and in October and in November 2023, just in those two months, 24 new HCV vouchers were issued. We expect to issue over 300 additional vouchers over the next three years, and more details will be provided about that

[00:19:39] HCV waitlist opening in our next quarter report. We also anticipate that there will be an uptick in the number of new units for second and third quarter fiscal year of 2024. As you see on this slide, this is due to the expected delivery on 322 attainable units at several new affordable communities by the end of calendar year 2023. These communities have already begun accepting applications, and we will report back as the units are leased up over the next few months.

[00:20:14] And then finally, you will see on this slide that 310 additional units are still in development and expected to be delivered in 2025 and 2026. These three projects, as well as two on the previous slide, were financed in part through the Affordable Multifamily Housing Loan Program, which is funded by the Housing Trust.

[00:20:32] Applications for two new projects not yet listed on any of tonight's slides were also received this past October for the fiscal year 2024 cycle for the Affordable Multifamily Housing Loan Program. We expect to fund more projects that recycle, and that will continue to add to the attainable supply and increase our new unit numbers.

[00:20:53] And with that, we're happy to answer any questions you might have. Questions, colleagues? Thank you, Chair Turner. Thank you for the presentation. I have a question.

[00:21:10] Do we have a program where, or have we thought of a program where the houses that we have that are affordable housing, that I can't remember how long that when someone purchases a home and at a certain point it reaches where they could sell it and go, you could purchase it at market rate.

[00:21:37] Have we talked about maybe repurchasing those homes so that we could have someone else to be able to purchase a home at a lower cost? Thank you for the question, Supervisor Glass.

[00:21:56] Yes, that is a current feature in our resale covenants when the covenants expire after 15 years. So that we do have the first line of first right of refusal to purchase. Okay, thank you. And it's currently available.

[00:22:11] Thank you. Can you refresh? Do you have a question? I do, sorry. Okay, go for it. Sorry. But you're always welcome to go before me. Thank you for your presentation.

[00:22:27] Thank you for all your hard work. This obviously is a big task and an undertaking that we're taking on here as a county. And you guys are right in the thick of it. So you alone want a lot more about this than we do. But I do have a couple follow-up questions from the presentation and from a little bit of reading the item.

[00:22:42] The first is the $1.5 million of ARPA funds. Seems to be, and maybe this is typical, I think we requested, request for bids on that went out in October, and the funds won't be available until spring.

[00:22:58] I hope I'm not mixing apples with oranges here, but that's like a six-month kind of lead-up time. Is that fairly typical for something like this? And it's only for displacement services, or is it for other types of services the ARPA funds are going to be used for? The opera funds, I just want to underscore, so we received $12 million allocation from the board.

[00:23:19] $2 million of that was for housing management software, but the remaining $10 million divides into $1.5 million for housing displacement for those who reside at mobile home parks. Then there's roughly $6 million for temporary rental assistance.

[00:23:37] And then we had another 1.5 million available for households facing evictions or with eviction filings. Those three activities, and there were two additional activities that we combined with Department of Family Services, so a total of five activities.

[00:23:53] But our three at DHCD, all five of them were released at the end of October. I mean, not October, August, with an RFP. And then that deadline was in October. And so we've been working in collaboration with the Department of Finance and Procurement.

[00:24:11] We participated in the proposal analysis group. That has been happening all the way through this past Friday. And as I understand, the next steps in the process is for the Department of Finance and Procurement is to work up a decision, and that would go to the Finance Committee in January.

[00:24:30] So if I recall reading, and I think you also mentioned, some of that was concern because of the winter months, et cetera, but this won't actually get started until the spring. Right, so on October 3rd, we got approval for to slice out of the $1.5 million, $500,000.

[00:24:49] I got it, okay. We actually launched that eviction, households facing evictions, we call it eviction assistance program. Right. That launched the week of Thanksgiving. Okay, so those are currently. That money is available. Got it. Okay. That was what was a little confusing to me from the presentation when I read it. That's very, very helpful. And then I have 21 seconds left. Could you give me a little more meat on the bones for the gap financing for the third? You said we have 13 developers on that.

[00:25:14] Help me understand that a little bit more thoroughly. Thank you. That's how it works. How it works with the certified developers. So they would have a first right of refusal for our rental homeownership and acquisition program.

[00:25:29] It's for existing real estate. Any developers who wanted to refurbish or put units back online, these 13 developers are hopefully looking for deals that would bring them to us. We have currently $5 million allocated in our funding streams to help with that acquisition for that particular site to be developed.

[00:25:52] I'd like to hear a little more offline. Can I just add, so there are two loan programs. There's the RHAP program, which is the one that Mr. Hall just described, but then there is also our Affordable Multifamily Housing Loan Program. So the RHAP program is for redevelopment of existing properties, and the Affordable Multifamily Housing Loan Program is for new development.

[00:26:13] And so we had two applicants this cycle for the Affordable Multifamily Housing Loan Program. Thank you. Mr. Hall, can you refresh my memory as to when an item makes the chart?

[00:26:32] Is it when we approve the development deal? Is it when they break ground? Is it when the first rental is rented? In some cases, it depends on the source of funds. With our multifamily loan program, which is where a bulk of a lot of our reporting is happening, it's actually when the certificate of occupancy happens, so when the actual units come online and are available for residents.

[00:27:00] And so that is on a quarterly basis, so sometimes our data lags. Okay. All right. Is it a fair characterization? I've said this a couple of times. Is it a fair characterization that we're still sort of in the ramp-up phase for the first two or three to four even years that we're maturing our programs and beginning to implement the objectives of the Unmet Housing Needs Strategic Plan? So we've got some catch-up to do, but we should accelerate here within the next couple of years once the programs become mature. Is that reasonable?

[00:27:28] Yes, I believe that's reasonable. We're just at the two-year mark of actually having the Unmet Housing Needs Strategic Plan, and we're only about 15 months into the department being formalized and launching, and we staffed up, as you can tell, with Ms. Collins present, so we are now fully at staffing levels. Okay. Any other questions? Yep. Supervisor Clance. Thank you again. So the programs that we have when we talk about the multifamily housing, and I know that there are people that

[00:28:07] like to live in Loudoun County. Is there like a process that you look at folks who may live in Loudoun already, or does it not matter if they live in Loudoun already and looking for housing, or is it for folks who may live in a couple of counties over and want to live in Loudoun? Well, we administer several programs. So one program is our Housing Choice voucher program. And the administrative plan, which dictates our policy on how we choose,

[00:28:45] we do have a preference for those who live in the county and work in the county. And then it kind of cascades down to working elsewhere in the state and then nationally. But we do have a high priority preference for people who reside in the county and then work in the county or both.

[00:29:06] That's with the Housing Tours Voucher Program. Then we also have the Affordable Dwelling Unit Program for multifamily. And then I believe there is a residency requirement with that. But for additional clarification, I'm going to ask if Mr. Regan would come up. He's the subject matter expert in the Affordable Dwelling Unit Program.

[00:29:24] But for our Housing Tours Voucher Program, that's the way it goes. Okay. Good evening. Yes, there are preferences for living in Loudoun County already. Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? Thank you all very much.

[00:29:41] Appreciate it. Thank you. Next item on the agenda is our first action item, the Transit Advisory Board 2023 Annual Report.

[00:29:56] Good evening, Chair Turner, members of the committee.

[00:30:12] Thank you for the opportunity for us to present this evening. I will not be presenting, so you will likely be short and sweet. But I would like to say that the transit programs, the transit and commuter services recently came over to DGS, and we are delighted by the opportunity to work with them and to improve our commuter services and our transit services to the community, and the Transit Advisory Board is an integral part to that.

[00:30:36] So I've already been exposed to their extraordinary knowledge base and their commitment to commuter and transit services in the county. So with me tonight is Sarah Kleckner, who is the liaison to the TAB and certainly the chair of the TAB, Mr.

[00:30:55] Let's see if I can get it right. Ven Kotechum. Tetchel, yeah. Did I say that right, Ron? Venkatechel? I was close. So what we'd like to do is, if at all possible, just there are several board members of the TAB, if we could just recognize them, stand maybe, or raise your hand.

[00:31:20] Thank you all for your service. We appreciate it. And pending your concurrence, I would like to turn it over to the chair to present the – Ron, you're on.

[00:31:48] You've got to bend over and see it. There you go. All right. I'm Ron Venkatechelam, chairman for the Transit Advisory Board, and I would like to open up thanking my fellow colleagues on the Transit Board, county staff here, and Board of Supervisors for the opportunity to serve and contribute the last seven years on the Transit Board, of which the last three years as Chairman. With that, I would like to open up the first annual report that's presented by the Transit Board, and I believe in your packet, first

[00:32:27] two pages is a summary from DTCI staff. Sarah Kleckner provided a good summary end-to-end of the tabs purview, and the next four pages is our actual annual report. I would say it's more a roll-up of our efforts since COVID fall of 2020, to be precise. And as the summary indicates, I would like to share some of the highlights from the staff report from pages one and two, some highlights, and then

[00:33:06] happy to answer any questions that you may have for us. So the first two pages actually in our report as well highlights the purpose of the TAP, transit board, the structure of the body, as well as our accomplishments and our future goals as we go into the pages three and four of our report.

[00:33:29] And the key highlights, as staff indicated, is the transportation synergy between the services that we provide from metro connect buses to commuter buses to local buses and paratransit services to have better synergy and to provide better coverage, optimal coverage, and increase in ridership.

[00:33:51] And I did notice that from, I think, 2024, there's going to be more emphasis on local bus services that alert went out today, which is a good step in the direction, I believe, in terms of transportation synergy that we have highlighted in Item 1.

[00:34:11] And in the same section, the subsection, we recommended adding a bus service to Dulles International Airport to support both travelers who go to the airport as well as people who work in the airport.

[00:34:30] And this is in no way competition to the Silver Line, but as a complementary service. That's one of the recommendations from us. And in the same section, item B, if you will say, is add a bus service along Route 7 going into McLean, Tyson's Metro Rail stations.

[00:34:51] So it alleviates traffic along the Fairfax County lines. So it will be a helpful addition there. And I think this would be much felt in the Algonquin and Sterling districts.

[00:35:07] And the second item that we recommend is connectivity to have parks, wineries, and breweries that we have in Loudoun County. You know, if you search in Google, the best things to do in Washington, D.C., of course, you know, D.C. museums, and the next comes Loudoun County breweries and wineries.

[00:35:28] So I think we can work with our local businesses. This has been in multiple summits, so we can work with our local businesses to gauge interest and come up with creative ways. where we can promote tourism and for attractions via mass transit here and the third thing we recommend is outreach to senior community senior living in various parts of the county you know namely in you know algonkian ashburn districts where some of our transit board members have

[00:36:01] worked with senior communities on buses to the retirement homes where we can develop a plan for senior ridership on Fridays where we can promote bus service, bus ridership.

[00:36:18] So that's the third recommendation from the board. And the fourth one would be the tab representation. This is more an administrative task, so where the terms of the board members spill over three months to six months into the new Board of Supervisors term.

[00:36:36] So there's continuity in terms of representation, and there's a handshake. as we go forward in the future. And I think that's pretty much the annual report highlights.

[00:36:53] And TAB members have engaged in a wide variety of conversations and discussions over the past four years. And with that, I'm not sure if staff has anything to add, but if not, we'll be happy to answer any questions.

[00:37:09] Thank you, Mr. Venkatachlan. Questions? Supervisor Kirshner. Thank you. Chair, and thank you, all of you who have served on this committee and for all your hard work. It is actually not overlooked that this is a really important aspect of a really fast-growing county.

[00:37:26] And I appreciate it. I plan to vote to endorse this report. I know that surprises all of you, how controversial it is. I'm being funny. But I do have a couple of questions. In large part, because I noticed, and actually I got a call from him about a month or so ago, My representative on the specific board is resigning, and I'm going to need to appoint somebody else.

[00:37:53] As in kind of your intricate experience, and I'll open this up to anyone, is there certain qualifications that would be helpful for someone to serve on this board? I mean, maybe some experiences and background and whatnot, and I understand this may not be right along the lines of what we're here to talk about tonight, but that would be helpful in feedback.

[00:38:12] And then the other thing that you mentioned and brought up, which, of course, is very important to Western Loudoun and I would be, you don't have to share it today, but I would be very interested in working and hearing back from the board itself as to how we may be able to work together with some of our wineries and breweries and economic development to provide more public transportation services to the Western Loudoun economy and how that might actually work. So if that is something it appears you're going to explore some more, I'd be very interested and certainly lend my office any support that we can and bring together some folks within those

[00:38:51] communities and within those businesses to work on that. But that's kind of my thoughts, comments, and a couple of questions. Sure. If I share my experience. So I used to fly out of Dulles Airport. When I stopped flying out of Dulles Airport, I took the commuter bus to DC for my clients. And that's how I got appointed to the Transit Advisory Board seven years ago, seven years ago. But having said that, I think we need members on the board. And I'm not seeking

[00:39:23] reappointment myself, but we need members who understand the transit network. And it's a multimodal transportation system. It's not just one system takes over the other. So who understand that we need a fine balance there. We need people who could play that factor, I think that's key, who understand public transportation, transportation, how that works.

[00:39:51] And one thing I have, recently we had this discussion in our transit borders, how efficiently that public transit systems in other countries globally, say Singapore or even Europe, one of our members returned from a recent European trip, how smooth and easy it's to transit from one system to the, one country's system to the other.

[00:40:16] public transportation so that kind of perspective and whatnot is would be helpful just in general public public transit perspective would be key for this i would recommend and with your to your second question i think earlier this year there was a summit in middleburg i forget um mayor littleton had a rural summit i forget what it was called but there there was a wide range of discussion from Beth Erickson, from Lauren Tourism, and a whole host of stakeholders.

[00:40:53] So I think we can tap on to some of those networks to provide better connectivity, if you will say, to rural businesses. Sue Rose of Glass. Thank you, Chair Turner. Thank you for the presentation. I have a question.

[00:41:09] And so when is the next review that you'll have to, I'm talking about expanding the bus stops and where they'll be located. I actually have a couple of neighborhoods who have asked that we expanded on the weekends, Wingler House, because they don't have, they do have buses, but it's just during the week.

[00:41:39] So on the weekends, you know, they're looking to go to the Giant or looking to go to the Metro during that time, and they don't have access to that. Yeah, thank you for the question, and I'll go ahead and answer and let Ernie chime in if he wants to add additional content.

[00:41:58] So currently we are looking at strategic plans for the transit services, as well as we recently did a study to look at the system overall. and our goal is to apply for a grant in the next few months to do an overhaul of our local bus system and look at all the stops and where the routes are located and their timings.

[00:42:20] The request for additional weekend service and longer hours has been a thing that we've continued to hear from the public, and that's certainly something that we want to incorporate as our budget allows. And I'll open this to Mr. Hemstreet or anybody that can answer, Mr. Crowbuth.

[00:42:42] What's the implementing mechanism? So there's some recommendations here that I think are good recommendations. So, for example, extending the TAB to four to six months into the next term so you don't get hit with 30 appointments right after a new board takes office. How do we implement that? When we go to the full board and accept the report, do I make a motion recommending that the TAB move to four to six months on its cycle?

[00:43:07] How would we do that? Yes, I think the mechanism would be for the board to formally change the terms for the tab so that they're not concurrent with the Board of Supervisors' terms.

[00:43:24] So you have the authority to do that. We will need to check to make sure there's no statutory additional advice from the Commonwealth on the Transportation Advisory Board. I don't think there is. So as long as there's not, then you would have the authority to modify the terms.

[00:43:41] Okay. And then the other one I was thinking of is the additional routes. So if we want to propose additional routes in accord with the recommendation, so routes out to the wineries or routes out to the senior centers, would we go through DTCI and ask them if we can do that?

[00:44:01] If we have the resources to do that, how would we implement that? So transit is within the Department of General Services. Oh, okay. All right. We will, we traditionally come to you with a transit summit or either that or a special portion of a meeting to discuss with the board proposed routes for the next year in our analysis.

[00:44:23] So we'll need to schedule that with Chair Randall for the incoming board. You want a May time frame or May, June is typical. Yes, sir. It's the typical is the spring time frame. And when Transit came over to General Services, we commissioned really a system-wide assessment and study of what was happening and how could we optimize that based on our current trends, riderships, and existing infrastructure.

[00:44:56] That study is near completion, and we would like, as part of some sort of summit, or if it needs to come earlier to the board, bring the recommendations of that study by an international transit firm, and then you all can use that as a starting point from that to provide direction.

[00:45:16] Good. And then the last thing is you saw the different kinds of buses. Did we decide on anything? Do we have any idea what we're leaning towards? Are we going to go with the capacitive buses? There was hydrogen, capacitive. There was another one on there. So a lot of that has to do with availability.

[00:45:33] We have a number of our comparators that have gone heavy electric with extensive delays, lead times to get them. We just received a loan-o grant from FTA to transition our body-over-chassis buses into CNG as a transition point.

[00:45:54] That brings to the conversation enormous air quality benefit and ridership benefit. The riders on CNG, it's basically a silent vehicle. So that's an interim step for us, and we're looking at transitioning to what they call a low-floor system, the Gilligs, as opposed to a lot of our current buses, which are aging.

[00:46:18] Also CNG, until we can move into more of an electric EV type. We do have two electric buses that have been ordered and should be here this summer, we think. We hope they've changed the delivery date four times since we purchased them.

[00:46:35] But we're getting the chargers in place for those two buses and the existing two C&G Gillig low floors that we have now. And we're piloting those to make sure that they fit and operate properly within our system. Okay. Any other questions? I'll just close on a quick note and use the chair's prerogative here.

[00:46:53] I was out in Phoenix in early November, and my daughter and I took a Waymo. It's freaked us out. I mean, you stand at the corner, and this driverless car pulls up right in front of you. And you get in the car, and it knows where you're going.

[00:47:11] And you just, I can't remember what we did to get it to go. We said okay, and the car just started driving in downtown Phoenix. And, I mean, red lights, green lights, left turn lanes, right turn lanes, cars passing on the left and the right, and this completely empty car is just driving along the highway.

[00:47:29] It was great. It was an experience, but they're coming. I mean, they're really coming. It was pretty interesting. So thank you all very much. I appreciate it. We're going to take a very short break. While we get the system set up, we have to bring some people from Vionair in to remotely.

[00:47:47] So we're going to make sure that we've got that all set up. So let's take a 10-minute break real quick. Chair Turner. Yeah. I believe we need a motion to. Oh, yes, we do. Absolutely, we do. Yeah. Thank you. I move that the Transportation and Land Use Committee recommend that the Board of Supervisors endorsed the 2023 Transit Authority Board annual report included as attachment one to the December 18, 2023 transportation land use action item. Second. With one minor exception, it's not Transit Authority, it's Transit Advisory Board, but I'll take that as a quick amendment. Moved and seconded.

[00:48:23] Any discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? That motion will pass 302.

[00:48:38] Now we will take a short 10-minute break. Thank you very much. Hi, Jim. Can

[01:07:42] you hear us can you hear me now yes we can hear you now okay session and the next item is uh update

[01:08:19] on the faa community process to mitigate aircraft noise and uh you guys are on go for it thank you mr chairman good evening good evening committee members um for the record again i'm josh peters with the department of planning and zoning joined by daniel galindo our department director also joined by the webcast by Jim Allardyce, who is representing Vion Air. So no PowerPoint this evening, just a very brief update and request for a motion. So I'm going to start with a little bit of background just to kind of set the stage for the update. This item being a continuation of our

[01:08:57] series on efforts to engage with the Federal Aviation Administration regarding noise concerns in the vicinity of Dulles International Airport. As the committee will recall, this effort began earlier this year at the board's direction when adopting updates to the airport impact overlay district.

[01:09:16] So tonight's presentation will offer a very brief background, an update, and then staff's recommended next steps. So our most recent update to this committee was on September 20th, at which time staff presented and the committee endorsed an approach for forming a community work group in an area immediately west of Dulles Airport.

[01:09:37] After receiving this committee's endorsement on that work group concept, staff then presented the idea to the full board on October 3rd, where the board also endorsed this approach while expanding the membership from nine members to ten members. Since that time, staff has worked with Vionair to plan a series of meetings for the community work group that would begin next month in January of 2024.

[01:10:01] However, during this reporting period, Vionair staff communicated by phone with the FAA Eastern Region Administrator, and the Eastern Region Administrator provided some parameters for how the county would need to proceed if proposing any operational changes within FAA jurisdiction. These communications mark the first substantive instruction the county has received from the FAA in this effort, and it signals the beginning of what we expect as an ongoing discussion. These parameters include the use of a roundtable process, which is a defined

[01:10:38] process, but which could take a range of formats, durations, etc. The bottom line is that this instruction provides an idea of what needs to occur, but not a full definition. So finding clarity on this point is something we're relying on Vine Air to continue fleshing out through additional discussion with the administrator. And depending on those conversations, staff will likely need to gather information on how this changes the scope and cost of the process we've Staff is recommending that we pause both the community work group meetings that were scheduled

[01:11:16] for January and these regular updates to allow time for the county and Vineyard staff to clarify the process expectations of the FAA with the expectation that we do report back during the second quarter of 2024.

[01:11:32] And so with that, ready to take any questions on what I just covered. And again, Jim Allardyce is on the phone to help talk through what the community, what the FAA regional administrator said to him on the phone. Okay. Thank you very much. Yes, sir. Do we want to go straight to Mr. Allardyce?

[01:11:51] Just kind of explain that process. We certainly can. If we could, Jim, would you mind? Sure. So what I did was I wrote a letter to Vita Simmons, who is the CEO or the community engagement officer for the eastern region.

[01:12:09] And she basically ran our intentions up the ladder. And lo and behold, I was driving home one day and got a phone call from the regional administrator. And she called me directly and she relayed to me basically some of the experiences that they had had in a similar situation.

[01:12:27] I believe it was Teterboro Airport. And her concern was that if we were to do the project as an isolated project just on the west side of the airport and other people around the airport found out what we were doing, they'd be like, well, why didn't you include us?

[01:12:46] What's going on? We didn't know about anything. Wait a second. Hold on. And she said it caused them a whole bunch of angst over at the Teterboro area. And so she did not want to have a repeat of that. And so she said, well, let's have, what we really need to do is have a roundtable or all of the communities surrounding the airport involved.

[01:13:14] And she gave some kind of general thoughts and parameters. Pretty much, she said, what would be the communities that would need to be involved would be the communities that may be affected by aircraft noise for aircraft flying at or below 3,000 feet above the ground.

[01:13:34] Depending upon whether you gauge that or departing aircraft or arriving aircraft, the radius could be anywhere from 6 to 10 miles around the airport. We had a few more points that we covered as far as what it would take for this to happen.

[01:13:58] But the interesting point, at least from my perspective, was that you all had for a long time suggested some kind of working group roundtable and all that. And they're like, no, no, no. And now it's their idea to have a roundtable. So it's OK.

[01:14:14] So that's what they want to do now. So I think in the long run, it's a positive step. And the reason I believe that is because it at least gives us a path forward and at least gives us a venue for dialogue.

[01:14:33] And I think that's something that we haven't had so far. And I think that having dialogue is really the only way we're going to end up breaking this logjam about he said, she said, pointing at each other and everything that has been going on throughout recent history and probably a lot longer than that. But I think long run, this is going to be a good thing. I think it's probably the only way to move forward. You know, with staff,

[01:15:07] we briefly discussed the ramifications of taking legal action, filing a lawsuit, which my response was everything that I've ever seen happen. When somebody files a lawsuit with the FAA, they completely shut down and they don't talk to anybody at all. They wouldn't talk to me. They wouldn't talk to you. They just let the lawsuit play out. And that just absolutely is not, in my opinion, where we want to go. So I think the positive takeaway from this is that at least

[01:15:40] communication has been established, and they have given us a pathway forward to have dialogue and ultimately to give recommendations to the FAA. What we're doing as next steps is Jason Schwartz is my community engagement person, and he is in the process of getting a little bit more clarification from the regional administrator and or her staff as to what would be acceptable

[01:16:16] representation on this roundtable and how to go about getting that. We will give that feedback to you when we have clarity on that. And then, you know, we expect to be able to move forward with a plan, you know, by January sometime, you know, get through the holidays. We probably won't have any dialogue with the regional administrator until after the first of the year. But, you know, we expect in January that we'll have more clarity on what exactly is expected. And then we can

[01:16:48] give staff some recommendations about, you know, where to go from here. So that's pretty much all I know. Any other questions for me? Thanks, Mr. Alleyes. If you stay on the line, just in case we have other questions any questions do you like members okay thank you Jim I agree with you I think this is probably the best way forward however based on just my limited research into community roundtables FAA community roundtables and the fact that we're focused just on the departure procedures off runway 3

[01:17:25] 0 and a community roundtable opens up the 360 degrees and 6 to 10 miles out I I can only imagine the community involvement discussion that's going to evolve around, well, if you change Runway 3-0, how is that going to affect me? Trying to get unanimity or even a majority consensus just seems to me to be very hard to do.

[01:17:46] Let me propose this as not an alternative, but as a – And I lost audio if you're trying to talk to me. Can you hear me? Test one, two. Can we check it? Jim, can you hear me? Jim, you on?

[01:18:08] Yes, I can hear you now. Okay, great. So let me propose this as a course of action. I agree with the draft motions. I agree with your recommendations, Jim, that we go forward with the form of the community roundtable. The emphasis has to always be departure procedures off runway 30.

[01:18:28] And so we're going to have to really discipline ourselves and all the members of the community roundtable because we're going to start hearing things like, well, you know, I'm in Sterling, and they take off, they land over Sterling all the time. How can you change that? We just got to resist that temptation. I don't know if we successfully can, but we've got to stay focused on the departure procedures off runway 30.

[01:18:47] I put an email in today to the chief pilot of United Airlines. United is the biggest carrier at Dulles Airport. What I want to talk to her about is if we could somehow get United to say to the FAA and to EMWA, look, this is not that big a deal.

[01:19:04] Our carriers would be willing to test pilot for a month or two a revised departure procedure. We'll help the community work on it and EMWA work on it. And maybe we can get a departure procedure that's very benign, that the pilots can fly, that's pretty easy to do, and then fold that into the community roundtable process so that there's something narrowly focused and substantive that the community roundtable can stay focused on that will tend to cause us not to get so diffused that we'd lose sight and we're here eight years from now without having accomplished anything.

[01:19:35] Does that sound remotely viable to you, Jim? Yeah, I think one of the things that we discussed was if you get the lead carrier involved and the influence that the lead carrier has over the FAA, I think that's a good thing, trying to get everybody rowing in the same direction.

[01:19:57] I do think that inherent in the roundtable process with other communities involved, there may be other interests put forward. Certainly, Vionair has been hired to work for you all.

[01:20:17] Should other communities want other things addressed, it would be up to them to get their own technical experts. Whether they hire us or not, we don't know. But as far as the focus for West of Airport and Runaway 30 departures, we're all about that.

[01:20:33] So I think the contacting United to get them involved and, you know, hey, what can you all do to help us out is not a bad thing. And we'll see what their response is. It'll be interesting to see what they say.

[01:20:50] Jim, in your experience, what has been the action result of community roundtables? Does the community roundtable at some point take a vote and the majority says do this and the FAA does it? Do they come to some sort of consensus with the FAA of what the best action to take is and come up with an action plan?

[01:21:07] What's the implementer from that process? So the most relevant experience that we have with that is DCA roundtable, the community working group over there. And our experience with that, we would expect would be similar to what you all should expect.

[01:21:28] And that is other communities may be involved, but the recommendations that we would put forth would only affect residents west of the airport. So all of the efforts that we have expended so far and the communities that we've identified in the HOAs and so forth is not wasted.

[01:21:50] I think that will still be the subcommittee, if you will, that we would work with going forward to try to come up with these ultimate recommendations that we would put forward. And that is very similar to what we did on the north side of the airport at DCA.

[01:22:09] So we worked with the North of Airport Subcommittee, and we basically told everybody else around the airport that the only thing we would recommend is things that would affect the people living north that were represented by the North of Airport Committee.

[01:22:25] The other committee members had a vote, but basically they were like, as long as the North of Airport Committee likes it, then there's no reason for us to oppose it. And when we finally formulated the recommendations, we brought those back to the full roundtable.

[01:22:44] North of Airport Committee endorsed it. They said, you know, these are our recommendations. We, you know, would like you all to vote. Once the full CWG voted on it, we got unanimous consent for moving those recommendations forward to the FAA. Now, all that does is send the recommendations through a formal process to the FAA, and then the FAA says, we will consider them. It doesn't force them to act on them. It just is a recommendation to the FAA.

[01:23:20] Now, having had technical expertise to determine whether or not these procedures were viable on the front end and having had initial consultation with Potomac TRACON to make sure that, as I always tell the staff, they didn't hate it, and that's the best I can do for y'all, we knew we didn't have an initial barrier to implementation.

[01:23:45] From there, the FAA took the recommendations, which also included over there things that the FAA wanted to have done. So we tried to make a recommendation that was good for the community, was good for the FAA, was good for the airlines, and we had everybody on board and they were all rolling in the right direction.

[01:24:06] And then ultimately they agreed to implement our recommendation with some minor modifications that they had to do for criteria and or waivers or whatever to make it work over there because they got to stay along the river and it's weedy windy and it's a whole thing over there.

[01:24:24] But ultimately, they agreed to implement those approaches. And there was two stars and several approaches that were affected, four approaches that were affected by the recommendations. And as of right now, the planned implementation is May.

[01:24:44] So this was a better part of a three-year process to get everything done and get to the point of implementation. And I would guess that that's pretty much the time frame you're looking at for something like that to happen here.

[01:25:04] Okay. That's helpful. Questions, committee members? But I think you just answered my question. Because I wanted to know about, because I see the motion says that report back to a future TLUC meeting.

[01:25:21] So I wanted to see about how much time do you all think we would have information for this? I'll ask Josh on that one. Yeah, the motion we have is to have us come back in the second quarter of 2024. This gives them time to figure things out with the FAA and then give us time to put some time and cost to it and come back to you with more information.

[01:25:44] Okay. Thank you. Supervisor Kirshen. That was actually my question. I would assume when it comes back, the scope of this roundtable, you guys would make recommendations as to what our suggested scope would be going forward, recommending to the FAA, correct?

[01:26:06] Yes, sir. We do intend to come back with a recommendation from staff on how to proceed. In terms of the scope of who the roundtable folks would be in the, I guess, what would this be, the West? Yes. Yes, all of that information. who's to be involved, what the process would look like, the format for those meetings, the cost of it.

[01:26:29] And my understanding of this most recent that occurred, and this was at Reagan National, is that what I understood, the example that was given? Yes. And that's in process now. You said it took three years to do that, to go through that roundtable process.

[01:26:48] Is that correct? Yes. From the time that we started the project, it was about a two-year project. And then for the FAA, about the time we recommended to the FAA, it was probably 18 to 24 months from the time they first initially received the recommendation until it actually got published.

[01:27:16] and the procedures got pushed back a couple of times, which is not uncommon. So I think that's a reasonable time frame to expect. But they've approved the process and they're in process of, you said, spring of 2024? Yes, sir. Right now, it's on the FAA website for implementation in May. Yes.

[01:27:38] And the scope of their project versus the scope of what we're looking at doing, are they similar in nature? Yeah, they, yes, they, they're similar. Your scope is, is more limited than theirs. Theirs included us looking at arrivals, departures, approaches, the whole nine yards where we're primarily focused on westbound departures here. So the, your scope is somewhat smaller.

[01:28:02] Okay. So maybe that would help us move it along a bit. Okay. Thank you. Not necessarily, because whether you're doing one procedure or 20, it doesn't really reduce the time that it takes for them to implement a procedure. Other questions?

[01:28:20] I was going to ask the same question. I heard STARS, and that's a standard terminal arrival route. It's a standard instrument departure if you're leaving. It's a standard terminal arrival route if you're coming in. And I can see where one would affect another, theoretically. But then they don't have a situation, I don't think, at DCA, at National, at Reagan, where they're using a principal western runway, not even an east-west runway, a principal western runway for the vast majority of their departures.

[01:28:49] And then right off the end of that runway, you've got a floodplain and power lines that are never going to be built on for at least a mile and a half. So that's a fairly unique situation. So hopefully, even though we're doing the community roundtable process, to your point, Jim, I think we can narrow it down and neck it down somewhat to keep us focused on the specific unique attributes of Runway 3-0, I hope.

[01:29:11] I mean, this has all the hallmarks around the edges of FAA death by 1,000 cuts. So I'm hoping we can, okay, we'll buy into the template for the process, but let's keep the focus of what we're in in this framework narrow as possible.

[01:29:30] So, any other questions or thoughts? All right, I'll make the motion. I move the Transportation and Land Use Committee direct staff to gather additional information regarding process, schedule, fiscal, and staffing resources needed to establish and support a Dulles International Airport community roundtable process pursuant to Federal Aviation Administration standards and report back to a future Transportation and Land Use Committee meeting.

[01:29:52] I further move that staff suspend the community workgroups that were scheduled to convene in January 2024 until directed by the Transportation and Land Use Committee or the Board of Supervisors to resume. Second by Supervisor Kirshner. Any other discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all in favor, please say aye. Aye. That motion will pass 302 before everybody leaves.

[01:30:14] Without objection, I'd like to take us into a committee of the whole for just a brief few minutes okay so feel free to chime in if you have questions of staff and mr. Glindo if I can ask you to stay mr. Peters you do not need to stay if you'd like to we'd love to have you mr. Crow with and mr. M Street if you could say that I'd appreciate it I want to talk about the DPC work plan and make sure that I've scoped out what I think is coming up on your plate fairly urgently and fairly quickly the way I see it we got basically four pots that They're going to happen fairly urgently.

[01:30:50] We have promised the rural community that we're going to do a rural CPAM-ZOAM. Everybody in the community, I think everybody involved, would like to mirror the end-of-game ZOR process that we had, where we had stakeholders and staff and some board representation sitting around the table and banging through these issues.

[01:31:09] I think that's probably the most expeditious way, but I'm wide open to suggestions. I just know that was very popularly received. I know that I've heard from the ZOC committee chair, Mr. Capretti, that he would like ZOC to oversee that process and make it a subject matter expert task force within ZOC.

[01:31:27] But that's not locked in anything like concrete. That's just a suggestion. But the four items that I see are the rural CPAM, ZOAM, and the rural community is chomping at the bit to get working on that. The data center, CPAM, and ZOAM, and I will just say that has become, I think, more urgent and more complex, let's say it that way. Since the Zohr process, literally within the time frame of probably August until now, the Western 500 KV power line just popped up out of

[01:32:05] nowhere, and PJM has just approved it as their submission. And that was in three months. The power constraints on the Loudoun County Data Center community are far, far, far more compelling than I thought they were three months ago. And so that whole data center CPAM-ZOAM discussion is going to have to have an integrated power discussion as part of that. And that's urgent because we have a lot of by right data centers that are developing over which we have no oversight. So that may end up falling into a two-phase process. How does the board gain oversight into all data center

[01:32:40] construction in Loudoun County in the immediate term? And then larger, what is the larger CPAM-ZOAM long-term management process we want to go through for that. So we have the rural, we have the CPAM-ZOAM combination for the data centers. We have the consultant that we have approved to hire to do an inventory and audit of land application processes. We've gotten quite a bit of input. I just forwarded the white paper from NVBIA to both of you gentlemen, and they had, we, Rachel and I and And Supervisor-elect Tachroni spent two hours with the NVBI community.

[01:33:16] They have some really interesting ideas. Clearly, it was a parochial viewpoint. But we need to figure out that process and how we're going to do that. It may involve DPZ, but it may not. And then the last one is I suspect we're going to have some quick fixes we're going to need to do in the form of ZOAMs to obvious things that need to be tweaked in the ZOR process that we just approved that are probably going to pop up.

[01:33:39] So those are four separate big buckets. And within the work plan, I would like to see if there's some way we can work those concurrently through a division of labor without driving staff out of their minds. We may not be able to do that.

[01:33:56] We may have to do it sequentially. I wouldn't even begin to know what that priority is for a sequential effort. And we may have to hire a whole bunch of outside consultants. I want to make sure that we all agree on that scope that I just described as to what we've got coming up in the next six months.

[01:34:12] and I'll open it to the floor to anybody who wants to respond. Completely agree with your first two points about the rural ZOAM and data center. Those would be our first two priorities when we're coming to you in January. We will be proposing a one, if not more, ZOR fix, ZOAMs for lack of a better term, that more than likely will propose a date certain that if anything that's found up until this point gets put into that bucket, and then we can just move forward with it so that there's not a lot of horse trading going back and forth and delaying things further.

[01:34:45] The land use decision study is definitely something that we're happy to take part in to the extent that the board desires. I don't know that as of right now is anticipating putting that into the work plan, but that can be something that we can discuss as we're getting things together.

[01:35:01] But as far as the number of projects that the staff can undertake with or without consultant help, I think our capacity right in this moment is higher on the comprehensive planning side than zoning. The whole zoning staff, other than the few that you saw at the table over and over, have to get used to a whole new ordinance right now.

[01:35:22] So while they'll be involved with the rural and data center, adding more on top of that is going to be very difficult, at least in the short term. So those are my initial thoughts on what you're out there. Okay, good. Mr. Grover. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[01:35:38] I would say that the Department of Planning and Zoning, Director Glendo, and I have been speaking on a regular basis about getting updated contracts in place for the use of consultants. More recently, the board directed to utilize consultants to support the data center, ZOAM, and standards development, and CPAM.

[01:36:03] So we see that as the future for being able to expand the capabilities where the staff in DPZ would serve more as a project manager supported by a group of consultants.

[01:36:18] Currently, the contracts that we have recently expired and we're at the beginning processes of working with finance and procurement to renew those. We do have the ability to utilize some of the planning contracts that are in the Department of Transportation and Capital Infrastructure as long as the scope generally fits those that those contracts were competed against.

[01:36:49] And so we leverage those. Unfortunately, those contracts are expiring January 31st, but DTCI has those teed up to come to the board, I believe, in January and essentially take effect February 1st. So we have that available to us. But going through our process is typically a four- to six-month process.

[01:37:13] Thank you. So when you say going through our process is a four- to six-month process, you mean just in terms of getting everything put together or actually completing the process, getting it ramped up? Putting it together, advertising it for the minimum amount of time, receiving the proposals, establishing a proposal analysis group.

[01:37:35] You heard Mr. Hall make reference to that. That group meets and reviews all the proposals and elevates recommendations to the board for contract awards. Got it. Yeah, and that's, yeah, that's... It's everything goes as smoothly as possible. Everything goes perfect. So the one thing I did not hear an answer to in terms of what Chair Turner had mentioned was, can, especially the first two that you mentioned that are part of the land use process or planning process, can they run concurrently or will they have to run consecutively or will one slightly be ahead of the other?

[01:38:08] How, and is that something you will, when you come back with a work plan next year, you will discuss with us? So they can run concurrently. data center project will more than likely run a little ahead because of the previous work we've done with the board and we the previous motion was to bring a project plan back within 60 days of ZOR adoption so that will more than likely come to your first meeting in February the rural ZOAM and and what to whatever extent we need to involve CPAM in that will probably be a little bit later but they can run concurrently once they're both approved and kicked off by

[01:38:40] the board. The ZOAM fixes, that can also run concurrently for sure. I've got a few more meetings set up this week with staff that we're preparing for getting that item together. So unfortunately, if you were asking me about three days from now, I'd have a better answer for you. When's our next work plan update? Is that? It should be January 16th, that's what we're targeting. Okay. We're going to ask more, figure out more then. I would be in favor, and I know this is not necessarily a topic for discussion, but you suggested it, and that is to, you said, suggest that the Preti and Zoc would be oversee some of the processes, is that correct?

[01:39:17] They're a resource. Yeah, a larger resource, I think. I would be fine with that. They're a great resource, and so let's not be afraid to use them, but I also don't want to just throw them in there for the sake of throwing them in there. So expeditious is the name of the game. And I just want to emphasize, this is Mike Turner, this is not T-Luck talking, this is my own personal opinion as a supervisor. I really view now based on the western power line issue that just popped up in the last three months, But by right data center development in Loudoun County is significantly problematic at this point.

[01:39:49] And there is a lot of opportunity for by right data center development right now. So I would really like to see how we can get board oversight and managerial control and rein in by right data center development, not necessarily to stop data center development, but just have visibility of what's going on.

[01:40:08] So we have sense of what the power consumption is going to be and how it's going to project. I don't know if that's even possible. I don't know what that mechanism might be. But if I were going to triage, I'd say, first, let's get some oversight over data center development. And then, second, let's think through strategically how we want data center developed with the CPAM and ZOAM in concert to go forward.

[01:40:30] But that's just my opinion, again, and we're a committee of the whole, so I'm just throwing that out there. Any other thoughts or comments? Thank you very much, Mr. Lindo. I appreciate it. Thank you for your inputs. Thank you. And we are adjourned. I'm sorry?

[01:40:48] So should we party? Last T-Luck of the term. No, yes, last T-Luck meeting. Last T-Luck meeting for your term. Yes. You didn't bring any gifts for us? I didn't bring anything. I didn't even think about it. It never even occurred to me.

[01:41:03] I'm already mentally moving on to the next thing on my plate. I want to thank you, Supervisor Turner, for the last two years of service. Thanks, everybody. It was great. See you. We're adjourned. Yeah, that's right. You can have a cold bacon cheeseburger over there if you want to celebrate. Thank you all very much.

[01:41:19] which I was reluctant -- recalcitrant for not mentioning, but thank you all for your service over the last four years. It's been great.

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