Coraggio Consulting
Loudoun County Board of Supervisors, Transportation and Land Use Committee-Western Loudoun Rural Uses and Standards CPAM/ZOAM, Thursday, November 21, 2024

Date: Thursday, November 21, 2024
Place: Board Room, First Floor, Government Center, 1 Harrison Street SE, Leesburg, Virginia
Length: 4h 12m (video)
Official meeting video (county, Granicus): https://loudoun.granicus.com/player/clip/7821
Agenda (Granicus): https://loudoun.granicus.com/AgendaViewer.php?view_id=73&clip_id=7821

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-20. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:11:22] I'd like to call to order the November 21st, 2024, Transportation and Land Use Committee special meeting. This room has a hearing loop. If you need hearing assistance, switch your hearing aids to telecoil mode. If you need a headset, we have those available as well.

[00:11:38] Please see the clerk to request one. I'd like to start with the Pledge of Allegiance. - Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

[00:12:00] For this special meeting, committee members will be allowed two minutes each for questions. Pursuant to Virginia Code Section 2.2-3708.3 and the board's rules of order, Supervisor Turner requested to participate in this meeting by electronic communication.

[00:12:22] A physical quorum of the Transportation and Land Use Committee is present in the boardroom, and the committee has made arrangements for the voice of Supervisor Turner to be heard by all persons in the boardroom. Supervisor Turner made this request within the required time frame, and the county attorney determined that Supervisor Turner's request meets the qualifications to participate remotely. The committee will record in its minutes that Supervisor Turner participated remotely from a private location in Sedona, Arizona for personal reasons. I will now turn

[00:12:56] the meeting over to Supervisor Turner as the committee chair. Well good evening everybody and thank you. I know this is a little bit unorthodox. I had a personal commitment that was laid on quite some time ago and this was the best available day and time to kick off this meeting and so we felt it was really important to continue on to keep the process moving forward. I really appreciate the ingenious innovation of staff to make this possible and so I'm going to run through the run of show here and kind of give you an idea of what we're going to do. I know this is a

[00:13:32] bit unusual. I can see everybody. I can hear everybody. So if you simply think of me as the great and powerful odds, we should have a fine meeting tonight. To start with, staff will provide a presentation. It should take about 20 minutes and kind of an overview of the various issues. And I really welcome all your inputs for this rural CPAM and Zoan.

[00:13:56] This is long overdue, and I'm excited to get it started. And I think we've got some great people at the in the stakeholders groups and it'll be around the table tonight so it should be very interesting so to start with staff will provide the presentations that should take about 20 minutes following staff's presentations uh the key luck members uh will have two minutes each to ask questions of staff and then i will call each stakeholder up to the podium to provide their comments uh each stakeholder will be allotted three minutes when you come to the podium please come to the right-hand podium as you face the dais. We have a pretty intricate camera set up,

[00:14:36] and we want to make sure the cameras aren't yourself. So only come to the right podium as you come forward to speak. After each stakeholder has spoken, we'll take a dinner break. When we return from the dinner break, we will return in a committee of the whole. I will take us to a committee of the whole prior to the dinner break. When we come back from dinner, we will be in a Committee of the Whole, and Vice-Chair Dr. Crony will be the chair of the Committee of the Whole portion. I will still be in the meeting, and I will still be able to participate, but because Vice-Chair Dr. Crony can see the lights around the table easier than I can,

[00:15:13] she'll be chairing the Committee of the Whole portion. We'll go through the five issue topics that staff has detailed in the item in the following Committee of the Whole setup. Staff introduce each of the five issues with three minutes and then we will hold a 20-minute committee of the whole session there will be a one-minute timer on the clock so the participants around the table speak as we did during the zoning ordinance process that's not a hard and fast one minute it's a reminder to everybody please don't give a speech when we're in the committee of the whole

[00:15:49] keep your comments concise ask your questions make your inputs and then move on to the next person so One minute is what we'd like to hold it to, and the clock is really a reminder, and Vice Chair to Crony will monitor that.

[00:16:06] After the five issue topics have been covered and the five committees of the whole sessions have taken place, we're going to take a 10-minute break prior to the wrap-up session, and then staff will provide a three-minute introduction to the wrap-up session and note any outstanding areas.

[00:16:23] if we decide we need one there will be a 20-minute committee of the whole we're wrapped up with one minute timer set for each of the speakers as we've done prior to that um at this time i'd like to staff to present the uh information i am for the rural seat payment zone following staff's presentation each member of teloc will be allotted two

[00:16:42] minutes for a question thank you mr chair members of teloc

[00:17:28] my name is brian wilson with the department of planning and zoning we are here tonight for the very first stakeholders meeting of the western loud and rural uses and standards project so welcome everyone and thank you for coming just to give you a broad overview this is the first of seven tealuck sessions that we are going to hold for this project this is the first one livery stables and outdoor recreation you'll note we have two more that are scheduled with dates dates specific the january 23rd meeting will be ag

[00:18:05] processing and i can now say that rather than other farm related issues that is going to be seasonal labor dormitories, tenant housing, and other general lodging related issues that we've previously talked about with the project. The April 24th meeting will focus on value-added farming. The final four meetings, we do not have a date specific yet. As we proceed and move further into the process, we will be more able to provide a date as to when those will occur.

[00:18:40] But focusing on tonight's meeting, we are looking at equine-related uses, livery stables, as well as any type of outdoor recreation. We want to stay focused on the mission tonight.

[00:18:57] From staff's perspective, we're looking for direction on areas where we will need to do further research and evaluation so that we can develop draft zoning ordinance provisions that are reflective of the discussion that has been had by you folks tonight, as well as uh input that we have received in the past there are going to be overlapping issues that spill into future tluck meetings so when we discuss some of these items i want everyone to stay laser focused on the issue at hand we will note when there is a conflict or when there is an

[00:19:33] overlapping issue we will and we will hopefully address that issue at the relevant future meeting but we want to make sure that we are focused on on the current issues tonight just looking at it from a broader policy perspective we don't have draft language to review tonight so we don't want to get into a discussion where it should this be 50 feet or 48 feet or 52 feet really from a more broad broad-based perspective a decision that yes we think this setback is unreasonable and

[00:20:09] we would like to see it reduced would probably be most most appropriate there are there are many uh in in the comprehensive plan there's there's a number of instances where the equine industry is identified as being crucial and vital to the general character of loudon county i think everybody here recognizes that we as a group want to make sure that we get these regulations correct

[00:20:42] and it's supportive and helps that that industry continue to thrive and be successful we also recognize that when you're bringing multiple larger numbers of people on a property there is the potential for potential nuisance causing instances so from that perspective we're looking to make sure that we mitigate those particular issues with the lightest hands possible ensuring that that we can still look at the the equine industry as as the vital part of loudon county

[00:21:20] that it is and i think really in general the vital part of the character of metropolitan washington dc so with that i'm going to turn it over to ryan reed to give a brief summary of some of the relevant zoning ordinance provisions that we're going to be discussing tonight really i think what what you'll find is that it's a very narrow area of the ordinance where most of this is discussed.

[00:21:45] And with that, I'll turn it over to you, Ryan. Right. Thank you, Brian. Yeah, so I'll take a few minutes to get a little bit more granular and respect with the zoning ordinance and the sections that we'll be looking at. The specific sections that staff have reviewed and prepared for this discussion are mostly in Chapter 4, the use-specific standards, and then, of course, the corresponding definitions that we find in Chapter 12.

[00:22:11] Just for a little background for the group, we focused on Chapter 4 as this chapter serves to establish standards for the specific uses to minimize negative impacts on neighboring properties, implement state and federal law, and ensure orderly development of a diversity of land uses within the county.

[00:22:32] The purpose and intent of these standards is to provide uniform criteria for the development approval, protect public health, safety, and welfare, and protect property values and economic development. And I think that uniform criteria across similar uses has been a concern that has been shared and expressed by most of the stakeholders that we have here tonight.

[00:22:56] And in fact, by virtue of presenting these sections, I'll probably be queuing up some of our speakers tonight. Staff believe that much of the concerns and ultimately most of the revisions and amendments to the zoning ordinance regarding these issues are focused on these four sections that you have on your screen within those use-specific standards.

[00:23:17] And those are agricultural support uses, standalone agricultural support uses, livery, stables, and equestrian event facilities. I'll quickly walk through each one of these sections, but more detail can be found in the staff report and within the zoning ordinance language itself.

[00:23:36] First, agricultural support uses are those that are directly associated with ongoing agricultural activities, such as agriculture, horticulture, and animal husbandry on the property. The use-specific standards within that section include minimum lot size, parking limits, hours of operation, structure sizes, and setback requirements.

[00:24:05] Now, standalone agricultural support uses, a separate section, is where those same uses are a principal use of the property. In other words, not directly associated with an ongoing agricultural operation or use on the property.

[00:24:21] The same standards, lot size, parking limits, hours of operation, structure sizes, and setback requirements are being reviewed in this effort. Livery stables is a specific use where the current use-specific standards actually reference back to that first one agricultural support uses.

[00:24:44] And therefore, again, livery stables are subject to lot size, parking limits, hours of operation, structure size, and setback requirements. However, in addition, this section 40806 clarifies that accessory uses to livery stables include offices, storage areas, tenant dwellings, education and training and equitation, and the caring for breeding and training of horses.

[00:25:14] Finally, the equestrian event facility found in Section 408.10 are, just like livery stables, subject to that same use-specific standards for agricultural support uses that we've discussed. However, in this section, the equestrian event facilities, it classifies them into two categories.

[00:25:37] Those where the facility includes the keeping and breeding of horses and those that do not include the keeping and breeding of horses. With that distinction, those that keep and breed horses are subject to the first one, the Agricultural Support Use Standards of 40803, because that facility has the direct association with an on-site agricultural activity.

[00:26:05] Whereas, those that do not include the keeping and breeding of horses are subject to the second one, the standalone Agricultural Support Use Standards. One thing I hadn't mentioned yet, the standards in 40803, that first one, agricultural support uses, and the standards in the next one, 40804, standalone agricultural support uses, are similar but not necessarily the same in each one of those categories of standards.

[00:26:37] Now, moving on in the definitions and hearing concerns, staff have taken a look at where we could have necessary revisions to the definitions of animal husbandry, agricultural support uses, equestrian facilities, and stable, both private and livery.

[00:26:56] A quick general summary of those definitions. Animal husbandry addresses the act of an ongoing propagation, rearing, feeding, milking, housing, controlling, handling, or general care of livestock, but excludes companion animals such as pets. Agricultural support uses that we've just talked about in the use-specific standards are uses that provide support and services to agricultural, horticultural, and animal husbandry uses. The definition continues, providing a long list of

[00:27:32] uses that are included in that definition. Equestrian event facility is defined as an establishment engaged in equine activities and events, including teaching equestrian skills, participating in competitions, exhibitions, or other displays of equestrian skill.

[00:27:52] It further clarifies what accessory uses to the equestrian event facility includes. And finally, the definition of stable is very simple, an establishment that keeps or boards horses, but it is further categorized into private stable and livery stable based on the number of horses that are not directly owned by the property owner or resident and by the number of horses used for hire.

[00:28:20] Finally, before I turn it back over to my colleague, Brian, the zoning administration is not here to defend what we currently have in the ordinance, but to present the existing language and to answer the questions that we can follow up with the ones that we can't, and to be here with open ears and open minds to collectively find ways to minimize the negative effects on the neighboring properties, implementing state and federal law, and ensuring the orderly development of a diversity of land uses within the county.

[00:28:51] Brian? you Ryan just to conclude staff's presentation you'll note that we have five bullet points as far as issues to discuss just to briefly go over each one of these the first one being consistency and uniform standards this is something that we heard quite a bit about in in our background research and discussing the the issues generally looking at you know how the ordinance is structured as

[00:29:26] far as you know this this particular use as these these restrictions this other use has the same basic impacts but doesn't have these restrictions so you know why why is the equine industry being subjected to these more stricter standards number two contextual appropriateness can kind of go hand in hand with the first bullet but essentially looking at the location of the facility some of the unique aspects of the area where it's located and some of the setback issues there's restrictions on the size of the

[00:30:05] permitted structures as well as buffering requirements and lighting requirements do those need to be relaxed that will be a question for you to discuss tonight defined equestrian standards it's essentially you'll notice note as Ryan Ryan spoke quite a few of the equestrian uses are essentially regulated by the agricultural support uses or the standalone agricultural support uses requirements we we had a lot of feedback that there's general

[00:30:40] thought that perhaps some of these specific uses should be broken out into their own separate section and reviewed with their own their own specific standards that are only related to their type of use some of the uses such as polo breaking out a difference between large scale large scale equestrian event facilities and maybe a smaller smaller scale equestrian event facility fox hunting was was brought up and that's

[00:31:13] not a use that's even contemplated right now in the ordinance the fourth issue rule use considerations this is more in the weeds um you know as ryan as ryan noted i think you can interpret that the the uh liveries are not technically accessory however the the clarification may be necessary to ensure that you know core agriculture and equine activities are clearly recognized as primary designations without being classified as accessory to other rural uses just just to make that clear

[00:31:53] in the ordinance and then finally the standards for recreation outdoor major you'll note that that is an extremely broad category right now going from athletic fields all the way to you know disney world or theme park is certainly certainly broad and the question is you know maybe we need to pull out some of these particular uses and and give them their own specific requirements right now looking at things like parking requirements right now this this particular use recreation

[00:32:32] outdoor major is in the rural area has has a requirement of eight spaces per 1 000 square feet so some of the less intense perhaps athletic fields have extremely large parking requirements that are probably beyond what they would need to provide to adequately park a facility so those are the five five issues for discussion tonight what i would say is this has been definitely a learning process for staff i think everybody is going to learn something tonight hopefully it's as productive

[00:33:07] and interesting uh as as we'd like and uh we're here to answer any questions thank you thank you staff i appreciate it can everybody hear me okay give me a thumbs up laura if you can hear me okay great um all right questions from tluck members uh chair randall so before you start my time could we could we just back up a little bit i think there's you know if there's for those five people watching this dynamically interesting meeting. I think maybe to bring people up as to why

[00:33:42] we're here right now because you know the fact that we did the rule the zoning ordinance for for Eastern Loudoun County as it were last year and would been and why we didn't do Western at the time and what we're doing this time. I think and I appreciate you guys jumped right into it but a little background on how we got here today and why we separate the two out and the timing and all that how long it's been since we've updated some of these standards. Just for people who are watching who may not have all that background, I can give it probably -- probably anybody up here to give it as could Mr. Turner. But can -- maybe

[00:34:19] we kind of level set people a little bit before we jump right into that. I will have questions about this, but if you don't mind, Mr. Chairman, can we do that? Can we just maybe do that? to just to give you a brief overview the zoning ordinance rewrite was a four-year process during that time staff received and and the board as well as the planning commission received quite a bit of public feedback regarding regarding issues in the rural area it was not contemplated

[00:34:55] to dive deeply into the regulations in in western loudon at that time based on time constraints it was felt that it would be best to break the zoning ordinance project apart and go forward with adopting the zoning ordinance rewrite and for the future have a western loudon rural uses and standards project that would address the concerns that we heard at that time and and

[00:35:27] And really going before that time to make sure that the zoning restrictions were lined up with the comprehensive plan. And if I could just add to that, I want to make sure everyone understands that this project is not a zoning ordinance rewrite for Western Loudoun, but the board approved a specific project plan with a handful of the key issues.

[00:35:56] Okay, thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. So my question's about this particularly. In more than one moment here, we've talked about minimizing the negative impact on neighbors' property. It does feel to me that our equine industry does have more stipulations, more guidelines, more things than other rural uses.

[00:36:19] And I don't quite know why that is. It would seem to me that if I moved to rural Loudoun County, seeing a horse wouldn't be something that I would oppose. because that's where I live it would also seem to me that it's harder to you know when we talk about ensuring negative impacts throughout well you know I think we in these discussions have to do one or two things one we have to say to Western Loudoun County people are going to ride their horses and they may ride their horses next to your house and your house may not be zoned for that or we have to say we're going to give large swatches of area where people can ride

[00:36:58] horses whether that is banshee reeks whether we create areas but they're they're they're large animals and they have to have places that they can be can be can be and i i think one of my concerns is that we talk about the equine industry as being an important industry to loudon county but i'm not sure we treat we've treated it like it's important industry to loudon county i think that the business we can make on it has been we haven't we haven't realized that And I think we haven't realized that because we haven't kind of unleashed the potential that is our equine industry.

[00:37:33] And so as we're talking about zoning in Western Loudoun and the equine industry, I'd like to have some discussions around, you know, where can they ride more often, more freely? And are, you know, if you cross one parcel of land to the next, you know, is it realistic to think that this parcel of land next to this parcel of land, you will no longer be able to ride your horse or there's negative impacts on your neighbors?

[00:38:02] So I think overall we've restricted this industry a little more than I'd like to see. And that's something I'd like to, a discussion I'd like to have tonight and then throughout. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Supervisor Kirchner. Thank you, Chair, and welcome from far away.

[00:38:20] So since this is our kickoff meeting, I was just going to talk a little bit this first opportunity about some of my kind of guiding principles, and I hope that the staff and my fellow supervisors and our stakeholders will really look at these and seriously undertake those.

[00:38:36] If you look at the RPA policies, I pulled out a couple that I think really are critical. policy two says limit residential one of the one of the aspects of the um our comp plan is to limit residential development to protect the land and resources of agricultural operations rural economic uses and open space uses minimizing traffic impacts so whenever when we're going through this over the next year or so obviously that's going to be one of my major guiding principles and if you look at that it's really houses are kind of second residents are a little bit second in some of this. And the RPA really is about protecting our open spaces, our ag and that sort

[00:39:15] of thing. So that's going to be one of my guiding principles as we go through this. Obviously, if you look at strategy 2.1, same policy 2.1, where residential development does occur in the RPA, it should be designed to preserve the rural character work of the land, to preserve and protect natural features and conserve land for agricultural equine uses, rural economy uses, passive recreation open space and then if you look further at policy 3 strategy 3.2 promote the retention and development of rural businesses uses and sustain the rural economy and support the county's agricultural equine and tourism industries. I point those out because that is really in large part

[00:39:54] what we are being told we should be doing in western Loudoun and are kind of our guiding documents and obviously one of the big core to that is our small businesses when we over regulate and i'm really concerned that as we go through this we do that so i'm going to be looking to remove some of the shackles of the regulation we we steal capital from some of the small businesses and in its place uh houses will come so i think also if i could are we are we hard on the clock here chair i ran out of time not hard on it but i'll wrap up is that okay we're we're like we're

[00:40:28] like cold jello okay so just kind of to wrap up specifically tonight i think our equine industry is so important to Western Lownton County. We are number one in the state, and I continue to try to find ways to encourage and support our equine industry. I mean, being number one in the state is quite frankly a really big deal, I think. And so anything we can do to kind of take the shackles off and really create successful equine events, events is not the right word, equine

[00:41:01] um business opportunities i think is really important and and enjoyment as well so i'm going to be kind of looking at those guiding principles as we go through this thank you thank you vice chair to crony thank you chair turner um so i i want to echo what my colleague said from the west supervisor kirschner you know the equine industry is a major benefit to rural loudon county and i think we should be incentivizing and enhancing where we can that industry. I don't want to see

[00:41:36] that industry, you know, weaken or there be less of it because it's really important to Loudoun County. I think horses are a critical part of our rural economy. And so one thing I'll be looking at is not having them placed within agricultural support uses. I don't really understand why they're placed within that category it seems like they should be a standalone you know on all the uses and it actually echoes for the outdoor recreation I think that's too broad of a category and we should have more specific standards

[00:42:15] for instance rural Latin has told us they like their dark skies so I think light pollution is something important to look at when you're looking at outdoor recreation in you know in rural in the rural part of the county and one question I had is for the outdoor rec in the rural policy area is lighting a permitted use yes okay so that I do want to look at and then the caretakers

[00:42:49] quarter I saw that as a definition of an equestrian event facility what does that mean that caretakers quarter so I've heard that we need a place for farm labor you know for people to take care of the horses 24 7 so what does that mean i'm trying to pull up the definition but yeah that's okay we can talk about it but but i think that's another important component is we have to make sure there's a place for the caretakers and for the farm labor you know a place where they can live and be right nearby because it is a 24 7 business

[00:43:27] a lot of the the horse industry so i want to make sure they have you know the place a place for the caretaker. All right. Well, thank you so much. So, Chair Turner, I turn it over to you. Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. Thank you, TLAC members. Thank you, staff, for the presentation.

[00:43:45] I appreciate it. We will now hear from invited stakeholders. All speakers will have three minutes to address the committee, whether speaking to an individual or as a representative of any group or organization. When you are speaking, please address the committee, not the audience. Those addressing the committee are asked to maintain decorum while speaking and while listening to other public others public comments our first stakeholder group up will be the agricultural conservation representative speaking first will be kelly fultman followed by john ludgrove followed by john ellis and again please use the right hand podium good evening thank you

[00:44:24] chair turner supervisors and staff i am kelly fultman current president of loudon county equine alliance for historical purposes equine uses in the 1993 zoning ordinance were altered during ZOAM 2015-006. During that process, ZOC committee members requested that the newly formed LCEA consider categories of equestrian uses based on traffic only. The concern was that the 93 ordinance had too many individual equine uses and was very confusing. LCEA then noted three broad categories, private stables, commercial stables, subsequently named liveries, and equine event centers. Unfortunately, somewhere within this process, liveries and equine event were placed

[00:45:02] within agricultural support, which has much stricter regulations than the newly formed LCEA would have recommended or been aware of. Both LCEA and REDC have asked that liveries and equestrian event be removed from ag support and receive separate use standards within agriculture.

[00:45:19] This would bring equine businesses in alignment with other principal agricultural and livestock uses of which equine is an integral part. Necessary changes include change operated or maintained by owner or occupant to the owner leasee. Remove any parking requirements for impermeable surfaces, curbing, and other elevated parking delineations, and allow field parking for events. Remove square foot restrictions in alignment with primary ag uses. Reduce setbacks to 60 feet in alignment with other primary ag uses, including farm wineries. Landscaping, buffering, and screening is too restrictive and costly for the businesses to occur. Hours need further review. Horses' care is a 24-hour

[00:45:55] responsibility. While we appreciate having morning hours extended, staff must have the ability to observe and care for horses at events and liveries at all hours. Only the public facing events should have hour restrictions and should be in alignment with other uses concerning evening closing times. Exterior lighting should conform to ag or no more than that is required of limited breweries or farm wineries. Hazardous chemicals should be completely removed from the standards as unnecessary and confusing. Worker housing should allow for dwelling units within principal use structures such as stables in addition to standalone dwellings. With the right modifications, individual equine uses such as polo, hunt stables, etc. could fit within one of these equine uses.

[00:46:35] In terms of definitions, remove private stable livery and equine event from the definition of ag support use and add equine to the definition of animal husbandry. The 2018 federal farm bill designates horses as livestock for agricultural purposes and Loudoun's zoning should do the same.

[00:46:50] While we can't quantify the number of equine businesses that decided not to locate in Loudoun since 2016. Many existing facilities would need grandfathering, and many equine businesses built post-2015 have incurred significant costs to comply with the zoning standards. Equine should be considered a primary agricultural use, and zoning should honor the original intent to consider traffic and acreage only as the basis for restricting the size of an operation. This allows for more uniformity in county regulations across most agricultural uses, rather than the current system that highly regulates some businesses while ignoring regulations for others. Thank you.

[00:47:25] thank you miss fultman uh next up will be john lovegrove followed by john ellis hi everyone i'm john lovegrove i'm the chairman of latin's future today i'm going to talk a little bit about fox chasing and polo these are two um uses in the county that i don't believe were identified in the last um section of um or last attempt at this um we call it fox chasing we don't call it fox hunting because we don't kill the fox it's a it's it's a um it's a sport that some people think is

[00:48:04] cruel but there's no intent to arm the fox and in fact i invite everyone here come out and watch a fox hunt or a fox chase and um it's really quite a spectacle and it's something that's been going on for 200 years in this county and it's it's called hunt country for a reason because a lot of that land in the west of loud and has been preserved by fox chasers for that use and i think a statistic i found was i think there's 80 000 acres in loudness in conservation easement well

[00:48:38] 30 000 of those have been put in place by fox chasers so there's a historic commitment and the other animals that live on um on these places um you know they're being pushed out of other parts of loud and because of overdevelopment and this is the last refuge for one place I hunt is there's nothing pairs of bald eagles there and it's really a sight to see on a Sunday morning when you're out there on your horse and there's a set of bald eagles flying over your head really I think you guys

[00:49:14] should come out and take a look at it there's six fox chasing clubs in Loudon the earliest one was founded in 1840 it's currently a by right primary agricultural use and i think that it should remain a buy right agricultural use um i estimated about 30 million dollars in revenue directly associated with fox chasing because of the amount of money it takes to keep a horse and anyone who has a horse and 50 can participate it's not a

[00:49:49] a sport of the elite by any any means and again if you come out and take a look at it i think you'd be surprised at the kids and everyone else that's having a good time now polo is another sport that i think is is really enjoying a renaissance here it's been in loudon since 1918 and lately it's really been growing and it's another sport that takes quite a bit of takes a lot of revenue keeps farriers keeps veterinarians keeps riders keeps a lot of people employed and when these people leave the county horses leave the county so i don't think that's the future chair randall talked about that and i think that's something we

[00:50:27] should all consider this is what is the heart of western loudon and it's something that should be preserved thank you for your consideration look forward to talking about it thank you mr lovegrove next up is uh john ellis good evening everybody um i'm going to focus on outdoor recreation uses that's at least what i reviewed uh in preparation for this meeting of which there are about 18 uh defined in the ordinance. I circulated my input to a range of different conservation organizations in in Loudoun before coming and have incorporated their comments.

[00:51:08] A lot of the issues that that I'm going to refer to apply to outdoor recreation uses but also I have general application to a lot of other uses. In terms of principles I really appreciated what the supervisors said about you know the general and staff about the general approach to this process And particularly Supervisor Kirshner, when you said, you know, we got primary use and a secondary use, and we need to take that into consideration.

[00:51:36] In terms of other principles, this just occurred to me as I was listening, but I think one of the principles should be that there are an infinite number of uses that you could define. Maybe not an infinite, but there are a very large number of uses, and trying to regulate every single one of them is very difficult and leads to problems.

[00:51:56] On the other hand, there are a fairly small number of impacts, negative impacts on neighboring properties. And if those are consistently regulated, we may be getting closer to what we want. Staff mentioned the other principles of consistency, which are very important, and consistency with the place type, which is what Supervisor Kirshner was referring to.

[00:52:18] My observation from reviewing the outdoor recreation uses is that there's a lot of inconsistency. There are different uses that have extensive regulations and some that don't have any regulations at all, standards, use-specific standards. In addition, there are different uses that are subject to different standards.

[00:52:38] For example, depending on which outdoor recreation use you have, you can have more vehicles on one site for one type of use and less for another type of use, more light pollution than on another, more disruption of the surrounding landscape than on another. Since the regulatory concerns are the same, There's no obvious rationale for these differences within the ordinance.

[00:53:00] For example, if neighbors are concerned about the amount of vehicle traffic being generated by a use, then why should they care? Would they care if it's a day camp or a golf driving range or a rural retreat? Probably not, it's vehicles that they're focused on. To be fair to everyone, the standard should be the same.

[00:53:16] I really wanna emphasize, and this is, I heard a number of friends and people I know, conservationists refer to the dark skies initiative. We, first of all, the standards, these specific standards are inconsistent. They're also insufficient, and we would like to see stronger one. Trees, I want to mention. There are standards in the ordinance for maintaining trees and tree cover in residential and commercial developments in urban and suburban areas, but none that apply to the rural areas. Trees are not more expendable in rural areas, so it would

[00:53:52] be appropriate to have similar provisions relating to rural developments. Flooding is a problem. I can't, I don't have enough time to get into it in detail, but we do not have strong enough regulations to prevent flooding from impervious services and other problems with development, and this has caused a number of uses. So I've used up my time. I'll stop there. Thank you.

[00:54:18] Thank you, Mr. List. Our next group up, stakeholder group, will be business tourism sector. And speaking first is Stacey Metcalf, followed by Emily Houston, followed by Janet Vandiver. Good evening, Chair Turner, supervisors and staff. As the Executive Director and CEO of Morgan Park, I want to thank you for recognizing the importance of the equine industry as a major component of the rural economy.

[00:54:47] While tonight I am representing a large-scale equestrian event facility, I want to note that medium and small-scale operations provide an important and local pipeline to our larger recognized events, positively impacting our equestrian business here in Loudoun County.

[00:55:03] Morbin Park's calendar consists of different types of equestrian events ranging in size and scope. They include polo, dressage, show jumping, eventing, and other specialty shows. In 2025, we will be hosting the Developing Young Horse National Championships and welcoming the U.S. Eventing Equestrian Open with $250,000 in prize money in ESPN live coverage, making Loudoun County the culminating event for Olympic-level competition, increasing spectators and entries.

[00:55:32] In 2024, with the announcement of the Open and hosting the Young Horse Championships, our entries over the three-day event were up 30%. Six countries were represented, 32 U.S. states, and with Virginia being one of the top competitor regions. Virginia entries included 29.5% from Loudoun County.

[00:55:51] Spectators climbed to 3,000. These competitors, their teams, stay in our hotels, eat in our restaurants, and fuel our local economy. In reviewing the current standard for equine events, it has become apparent that should the county want to create an additional equestrian event space to support other large-scale uses and events, they would not be able to do so due to the stricter restrictions. Additionally, mid- and smaller-scale equestrian event spaces are also being limited by restrictions, and it's harder to operate and ultimately be the feeder businesses that we need.

[00:56:23] Together, we need to support the future of our equine industry and look at permitting food service for event facilities, especially for those with no kitchen or catering facilities. Equestrian events oftentimes run all day, and event facilities, large and small, need to provide food services as part of our business model.

[00:56:41] As we heard earlier, changing operated or maintained by owner to also include leasee for rentals, evaluate hours of operation to provide flexibility for events, remove square footage maximum for large-scale uses, covered spaces such as indoor arenas, stables, storage facilities are all necessary when you're hosting these types of events.

[00:57:03] Re-evaluate parking requirements and allow the use of field parking. Setbacks in lighting should be aligned with other rural agricultural uses and re-evaluate landscaping, buffering, screening requirements which seem excessive. And finally, remove the number of access point limitations.

[00:57:20] I believe that it is in our best interest to have consistency and regulation across all agricultural uses. uses help to deliver on the promise of the rpa to promote the retention and development of rural business uses that sustain the rural economy and support the county's agricultural equine and tourism industries thank you thank you ms mcalf next up is emily houston followed by janet vander good evening i'm emily houston vice president of the louden county equine alliance

[00:57:57] and owner of a small private stable where i board horses and teach riding lessons i was also the editor of horse times magazine for nine years covering regional equestrian activities with a focused on virginia horse shows association associate level competitions these are the very popular and accessible shows that enable newcomers to equestrian competition to learn the ropes before moving up to what are called recognized shows such as those held at upperville and morven park these events and the horse businesses that make them possible are the local pipeline referred to by Ms. Metcalf in her comments, and I'd like to address the needs of this vital part

[00:58:37] of the horse industry in Loudoun. In the 2015 economic impact study of Loudoun's equine industry, 57 percent of the respondents reported that the property on which they keep their horses encompasses 10 to 49 acres.

[00:58:52] This demonstrates the predominance of relatively small acreages. In a recent survey we conducted, almost half of the respondents reported owning properties in the 10 to 19 acre range. One of the most successful equine businesses in the county in the 20 years since I've been here is a farm on 10 acres that held regular associate shows and offered a large menu of camps and riding lessons.

[00:59:18] The business was so successful that the owners were able to sell it and move to a larger property in Loudoun where they are again hosting regular shows offering camps and lessons. Their original 10-acre farm packed an indoor ring, barns, turnout paddocks, an outdoor competition ring, parking, a picnic pavilion, a swimming pool, and a home all onto 10 acres, all built in compliance with the pre-2015 zoning ordinance.

[00:59:45] It would not be possible to build this facility under the current ordinance. In speaking with this business owner recently, she shed some light on something that I think is really important to consider when we think about what equine businesses bring to Loudoun.

[01:00:01] She said that 80% of the riders who attend her shows come from outside the county. She is amazed that people will drive two hours to come to her shows. She estimates that 60% of their riding lesson customers come from beyond Loudoun's borders.

[01:00:17] Another very successful horse business in Loudoun that focuses on fox chasing tells a similar story. Like the previous case, this business owner moved from a smaller property in Loudoun to a larger one where 30 to 40 percent of her business comes from outside the county.

[01:00:34] Her customers pay to use her fox chasing horses and come from all over the country to buy horses. In addition to the money these customers spend with her, they are also staying in B&Bs and hotels and patronizing restaurants in Loudoun when they come to fox chase or buy or try horses to buy.

[01:00:53] I see that I've run out of time. I hope you're getting a written copy of my comments because I want to emphasize the points already made about setback requirements, structure size limitations, and buffering, and their effect in particular on these smaller horse businesses.

[01:01:12] Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Houston. My apologies for mispronouncing your name. I originally thought it was Houston and then somebody corrected me and said, "No, no, it's Houston." now. At least I've heard it correctly. I could say from the horse's mouth, but that would be stretching. Ms. Vandervaert, and then we'll follow by the next stakeholder group. Thank you.

[01:01:36] Good evening. My name is Janet Vandervaert, and I'm an LCA board member, vice president of U.S. Trail Ride, and an avid trail rider. I ride and camp with my horse all over the state of Virginia, as well as in Maryland, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Tennessee. Equestrian campground facilities are in high demand and we often must book over eight months in advance to obtain a site. According to the Virginia Department of Conservation Resources, there have been more than 6,000 reservations made over the last two years at the six state parks which offer equine camping, so we know the demand is there. As Loudoun County leads the state in a number of horses

[01:02:14] and the equine industry is the county's largest agricultural employer, equestrian campground facilities and the expansion of equestrian trails would provide new additional business opportunities and tourism attractions for Loudoun County visitors. It would be a benefit to review the language under Section 4.0303 and 4.0810 to ensure that it allows for or is not restrictive to the future establishment of equestrian campgrounds at area parks with significant trail systems or as part of equestrian facilities.

[01:02:53] Equestrian campgrounds standardly fall into two types, facility camping and primitive camping. Primitive camping is basically an open field with space allocation. In this area, facility campgrounds are more beneficial recommendation as they provide guests with the confidence to stall their horse and avail themselves to local restaurants and destinations.

[01:03:13] Facility campgrounds can be created as a trail destination as Loudoun expands equestrian trail access, an overnight for traveling equestrians, or a rental location for participation in local equestrian events or shows.

[01:03:29] These campgrounds would also include accommodations for horse living quarters trailers, which include mobile stalls and a camper area, much like what is provided in an RV or for standard horse trailers. Campers could use shared service buildings with restrooms and other facilities as permitted, which could include adjacent covered shed row or barn stalls, a hard service wash area, a central potable water source for stall water and a manure management area.

[01:03:58] Manure management standards would follow existing zoning requirements for equestrian facilities. We encourage you to ensure that the zoning language allow for this potential future equestrian business type. As Loudon works to expand equestrian trails and promote the retention and development of rural business uses that sustain the rural economy and support the county's agricultural, equine, and tourism industries.

[01:04:23] Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Van Der Vaart. Our next group will be the residential sector representative this evening. The entire group will be represented by Casey Chapman, who will be our next speaker.

[01:04:43] Good evening. Thank you for having me. Casey Chapman. I own Caseco and Merit Restoration is based out of Western Loudoun County. I'm proud to say that I grew up in Western Loudoun County, a product of Emmerich Elementary, Blue Ridge Middle School, and Loudoun Valley High School. I currently reside outside of Purceville, along with my two other business partners in Western Loudoun County, as many as my other friends and family. I can't speak too much in regards directly to equine from a personal standpoint, other than, one, my

[01:05:20] wife was an adamant rider when she was young and competed and two my three-year-old daughter just started lessons this year which i'm didn't know if i'd be excited about but as i've watched her i can see the multiple benefits that it offers to our youth and others it is an important and ever since i can remember driving around any road in loudoun county especially western loudoun county are seeing horses in the fields is the environment that it is and when specifically looking at this issue facing us now of how and where does the industry grow and how can we promote it it's

[01:05:54] important that we take multiple things into consideration those things for me would one major one would be the threshold to enter the market especially in western island county and creating that barrier so it's not as high for all parties to be able to engage and enter that market the barrier to enter the market in western island county whether it's from a residential a commercial a riding facility or what have you is is only increasing and making it more encumbersome whether it's over regulations or unnecessary fees or studies have to be conducted but it is crippling the ability for the industry to grow from my perspective i think also looking at

[01:06:33] setback requirements and uses that are accessory is very important and as well as looking at all the other things that need to be studied when looking at bringing a new or thriving industry and making it grow, such as ours and the equine industry, and making it successful as we did for the wine industry in Western Loudoun County. Promoting the equine industry is just going to be as important, if not a bigger segment of our economy. I could see that happening. But we need to make sure that we address all the other impacts that result from that growth and are able to facilitate the hosting of events, the people, the traffic, and everything that comes along with that

[01:07:09] in a responsible way that still reflects the character of western laden county i am proud to be a part of this committee i appreciate being here tonight and i'll be an avid listener and a good advocate for all parties interested thank you thank you mr chapman um i was told that mr batazzi and mr george were not here tonight but if either one of you are present you're welcome to speak if you are here hello my name is michael batazzi i am actually here um thank you sir the

[01:07:49] part about this that I'm trying to bring, I am a farm owner in Loudoun County. I own a commercial operation. We board, lesson, train, do horse shows, do all those parts, is I think part of the thing that's most important for what I'm bringing to this is the distinction between what is actually those of us that are doing this professionally versus small inside operations. So when you talk about square footage, for example, just as a random thing, that I just put in a new indoor arena that is 16,000 square feet. It is not made that size in any way to increase the number of

[01:08:27] participants, but to provide more facility for the animals to do what we need them to do. So some of the restrictions that seem to be in place for one reason are not relevant to what we're doing. Same with hay storage. When you talk about what you need to run that operation, right now i'm running about 35 to 40 horses we're running through over 600 bales a week a month in hay if i try and store large-term hay for cost i can't do it because of my facility lot size limitations so for those of us that are doing this professionally and that's where i think you

[01:09:04] have a lot of distinction in this is sort of what is a property landowner that has some horses but versus those of us that are professional you've got to really start to think about what your impacts are going to be to the professional operations and what are you trying to accomplish? One of the things that was brought up was lighting as far as like nighttime polo.

[01:09:23] 90% of us don't have that as a problem and I don't think limiting my ability to run a riding lesson in the evening is the same, needs to be under that same restriction. And so that's where breaking this up and really looking at it is relevant to what it is for the true professional operations.

[01:09:41] the morbon parks are the true facilities is what's going to really come down to this thank you thank you mr patazzi and uh i'd just like to make a call for mr fred george if he's in the in the audience and you're welcome to speak i was told he was not here supervisor turner he's always present he's present tonight okay i'm here thank you welcome uh thank you all for having me i'm a I'm a little ill-prepared because I didn't get a lot of notice on this tonight.

[01:10:13] But my name's Fred George. I'm like ninth generation Loudoun County. I'm an old man. I've been hearing about horses all my life from my grandparents and everybody. And it's always been a big part of the economy.

[01:10:30] Horses, work horses, fine riding horses that were raised in Lovetsville and sold to different people. And they were always proud of their products. I'm a little bit of a history buff. so that's where I'm coming from here tonight when you talk about this industry and all the people it touches and then there's the people that you don't realize it touches it's like any other industry they just kind of rolls and rolls and rolls and then there's more money for other people to start something else then that rolls and rolls and rolls and and you've got this great big

[01:11:10] snowball and it's it's good for everyone so the one thing we really don't want to do is over regulate what you've got going you've got a good starting point here and small farms they're just as important as the larger farms i haven't been on a horse in about 25 years my wife she's a horse girl we've been together 20 some years i've never seen her on a horse yet we've got to And I say, hey, ride that horse.

[01:11:47] Well, I don't have stirrups. Well, then go get stirrups. So I'm working on that. And I do make hay. Like I say, I'm a retired guy, but I have a little bit of knowledge in this old brain here.

[01:12:05] Thank you all a lot. Thank you, Mr. George. We appreciate it. And thank you to all the stakeholders. I really do appreciate your inputs. This would not be possible without your expertise in the room and at the table.

[01:12:22] And so we really do appreciate your contributions here this evening. I'd like to turn now to our two Planning Commissioner representatives, Robin Eve Jasper, Commissioner Jasper, and then followed by Commissioner Miller, if you're available.

[01:12:37] Commissioner Jasper, you're welcome to make some comments. Good evening, everybody. Thank you for inviting us to participate and to make comments. I also don't have comments prepared, so I apologize for the informality of this.

[01:12:54] but I did want to say when I moved to Loudoun County seven years ago before I did that I was looking around and I was considering where to live and I'm also old so I have that in common with previous witness but I wanted to I wanted to ride and start a little horse business and I was talking to a friend who's a veterinarian in Chester County Pennsylvania which is also very much horse country and she looked at me and she said if you could live in loudon county and have a farm why would you even think about moving here and i think that is the reputation of this community

[01:13:33] and the horse business and there is an ecosystem here that is really unmatchable and it is accessible to people unlike some places like wellington and florida or whatever and i just think that the value of this to everybody not just to the people within the horse business but to people who come and take lessons and to people who live in the eastern part of the county who have access to this and can come watch shows and can drive around the countryside and can take lessons i just think is is hard to quantify and so i'm really grateful

[01:14:09] for the opportunity to be on this committee and to support the growth in this business thank you commissioner jasper and uh last up is commissioner mark miller thank you mr turner members of the committee um like mrs jasper i'm informal to this evening as well i will speak from this perspective in the last term the planning commission spent 18 months i think the subcommittee

[01:14:44] meetings between parking and uses was numbered in the low 20s and i was at every single one of them And over the course of that time, I came to understand that our Euclidean zoning system is all but too prescriptive and makes things very, very difficult for a lot of us to do anything that they want to do in this county.

[01:15:07] For those that don't know Euclidean, I always like to frame it in the terms of home rule versus the judge of Iowa. What's our Dillon? Dillon rule.

[01:15:24] Dillon rule is the state says, localities, this is what you can do. You can't do anything else. This is what you can do. Home rule is the state says, don't do these things, but whatever else you want to do, you guys figure it out.

[01:15:41] Our zoning ordinance is really Dillon rule, where the county says, don't do any of these things. The only thing you can do is this, this, this, and this. It becomes so prescriptive that we end up with a zoning ordinance that says, if you're on 50 acres, the maximum size structure you can have for livery is 24,000 square feet. We deal with a percentage of lot that we can cover. We talk about FAR of 0.4 and think that's a relatively

[01:16:15] low number. People come in wanting 0.6. A 24,000 square foot building on a 50 acre parcel is an FAR of 0.011. It's nothing. And we need to be careful when we are so prescriptive about things that some of the commissioners and some of the members of the board take for granted or don't pay attention to when folks out here are telling us how they're working the farms and what they're doing to make a living on the land that they have. So those are the things as we go through this

[01:16:55] process from what i learned from 18 months of working on this in the in the zoning ordinance rewrite is that we need to be careful that we're not putting arbitrary limitations on things that we really don't deal with on a day-to-day basis so we need to take what these folks are saying and understand how we can make sure that we're not putting in random numbers in a zoning ordinance that makes it impossible for someone to have the right size building they need to conduct whatever activities as it relates to livery there's other things we'll get to as of course of the year but as it relates to livery we want to make sure that we're not putting arbitrary

[01:17:33] numbers in place that prevent folks from doing things that grow the economy in western loudon that make their livelihoods and businesses thrive and that in turn helps us limit the number of residential units which we have long said we want to do thank you thank you commissioner miller that completes our stakeholders our planning commissioner comments i would like to open it up to um having heard the comments now for the teluk members this is not on the script for an additional two minutes if you'd like it is there anyone that would like an additional two

[01:18:08] minutes to respond yes mr chairman i would madam chair you are recognized thank you thank you those were really amazingly good comments and i thank everyone i think that it's interesting because when we started, the staff correctly said, you know, we don't want to get too far off course.

[01:18:27] We're talking about liveries and stables and equine. But the truth is, two of the speakers, Mr. Miller and Mr. Chapman, who, because Mr. Chapman is my appointee, was the best speaker tonight, I think I will say that, two of the speakers actually talked about how all this stuff works together.

[01:18:46] And so I don't know, I think it's hard to look at things completely in just isolation. I think, you know, Western Loudoun County, just by its very nature, kind of works together. And so I won't be offended if, I think it's, I won't be offended if our conversations veer sometime when it's appropriate.

[01:19:06] Not, you know, vastly, but sometimes we have to talk about more than one thing. We have to be able to walk and chew gum. You know, Mr. Miller, I actually, as part of the Virginia Association of Counties, I visited a county recently in West Virginia that didn't have any zoning.

[01:19:23] It was a nightmare, a complete nightmare. I mean, you could just put anything anywhere, anytime, no setbacks, no requirements, no nothing. I mean, just nothing. And I thought, my God. And they were not doing well because it was just kind of everything. But there's an extreme, that's one extreme.

[01:19:41] there is another extreme and that's too much regulation you are correct and um and i think we do have to guard against too much regulation and and and not and doing so much we don't let people enjoy their old land and and what they're doing so i am going to be through this process um talking to my appointees mr casey and my other appointees and i'm looking for the balance because I do think all of this is a balance.

[01:20:10] And it is true that, you know, everyone has a right to enjoy their property, and no one's enjoyment of their property should impose on another person's enjoyment of their property, and that's the balance we're trying to get to the highest degree possible. And so through this whole process, I think that's going to be what guides me.

[01:20:28] Like, how does one person enjoy their property with not impinging on another person to the degree possible? I think if I, just speaking for myself, keep that in my head, then that would be my guiding force for what we're about to do here for the next many months.

[01:20:50] So thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Madam Chair. Supervisor Kirshner? Any additional comments? Just a couple of thoughts. First of all, I want everyone that spoke, I want to thank you. Excellent, really excellent comments. I thought I knew this stuff pretty well, but it gave me a lot of things to think about.

[01:21:06] I think Mr. Miller was the better speaker, even though I did try to appoint Mr. Chapman, but you stole him from me, so nonetheless.

[01:21:21] I appreciate what everyone had to say, and you're all great. I mean, I'm not dissing anybody. I just wanted to say this is a little friendly argument up here. I think there was really a theme that we're hearing, and I think it's in large part kind of some of the things that we kind of kicked off and one we want to we want to consent you to see the equine industry thrive um in loudon county we want and by doing and part of doing that of course is making sure we don't over regulate i mean i i've told this story before but i've seen it on a regular basis where i had i recently had a a farmer who wanted to replace a building that was

[01:21:58] in disrepair and he wanted to put the exact same building on the exact same spot but because of some changes in a subdivision ordinance when his great great uncle had put that building there and then subdivided one little piece of property off to the left, he could not replace the building because it was in violation of our zoning ordinance.

[01:22:18] And the only way that it could be replaced was if there was an act of God. One night there was a really big windstorm and for whatever reason that barn came down and we got it replaced, but we don't wanna have to be able to do that. We want to make sure that as we go through this process that our liveries, our stables, and really are able to thrive, and that's what we want to see.

[01:22:41] The other thing I think I really saw that really is important from the comments, and that is the economic development that is brought to Loudoun County as a result of our equine industry. I mean, I think it's in the millions and millions of dollars, and so we need to continue to keep that in mind, and I appreciate Ms. Houston and those who spoke to that.

[01:23:04] Thank you, Supervisor Kirshner. That's Ms. Halston, supervisor. You got me messed up there. Madam Vice Chair. Thank you, Chair Turner. And I want to thank Michael Bertozzi for coming and talking about, you know, the professional versus the smaller scale operation for equine.

[01:23:28] I think it's important to look at the scale. And I think Ms. Metcalf said the same thing. You know, she, Morbin Park is a large scale equestrian events center, but the pipeline's important too, the smaller and mid-size equestrian facilities.

[01:23:45] So it's important that we take care of all of the equestrian community, all sizes, and we don't, I would agree, regulation doesn't help that industry, and we need to really look at all the standards and how we can help them.

[01:24:02] I was really impressed about the equestrian campground facilities. So I know Oak Hill is gonna be providing that, so I do wanna look at that and make sure we get that right, especially with Oak Hill coming. They have said that they're interested in doing equestrian campgrounds, so we gotta get this regulation where we can get that done.

[01:24:23] And then fox hunting is something that I do think should be by right, and I wanna make sure fox chasing. That's right, I know Chair Turner would be very upset if it was fox hunting, And so would I but yeah, it's at Fox chasing want to make sure we were encouraging That because I know that's a huge huge pastime recreation And and it really is part of Loudoun County. So thank you so much And I look forward to getting down to all the details tonight Thank you, Madam Vice Chair, and if I could just close out this portion here with a few comments

[01:25:03] First, a small note. I said in a public meeting the other day that they killed the fox in Loudoun County knowing absolutely nothing about it. I just assumed that. And we all know what the assumption is. And Mr. Lovegrove was very kind to educate me on what fox chasing is and how it's conducted.

[01:25:20] I still don't know that I would participate in it, but I absolutely respect the tradition and the history in Loudoun County, and I was glad to be corrected and note that. Very briefly, I was part of the stakeholders committee, Chair Randall appointed me to the stakeholders committee to rewrite the comprehensive plan, and that process took two years.

[01:25:45] One of the reasons Loudoun County is such an amazing place to live is because we have essentially, two completely separate ecosystems. We are one Loudoun County. We all live here. We all work and thrive and play together here. But we have radically different issues and challenges between eastern Loudoun County and western Loudoun County. And when I think back on the stakeholders process and how we constrained ourselves to the eastern portion of the county on the comprehensive plan rewrite. I am absolutely assured by this process just so far tonight in an

[01:26:23] hour and a half that that was the right thing to do. The challenges are so unique and there's plenty of subject matter expertise here in Loudoun County. But additionally, the benefit of doing it the way we're doing it now is the fact that we have all the lessons we learned in the stakeholder process and all the lessons we learned in the zoning ordinance rewrite. So our discussions, I think will be much more concise and laser focused on the critical challenges that we're facing in West Atlanta. And so I'm glad we're doing it this way. And I really, once again,

[01:26:57] want to just reiterate that the value to this entire process of our citizenry and our subject matter, citizen subject matter expert inputs in this process. So with that, let's take a 20 minute dinner break that will take us to let's call it 6 40 and without objection from TLAP members we will reconvene at 6 40 down on the floor in the committee of the whole and once again vice chair to crony will chair that meeting down on the floor so without objection we will be in committee of a whole when we come back from the dinner break and we are recessed for dinner

[01:27:37] thank you all very much mike turner supervisor turner on

[01:57:38] chair turner are you on i'm on okay all right thank you everyone we will now go through each issue topic in the following manner staff will have three minutes to introduce the issue topic then we will enter into the committee of the whole for 20 minutes on that topic with a one

[01:58:03] minute timer for each speaker so the first topic is consistency uniform standards okay thank you

[01:59:28] madam chair uh we are going to start off with um the first issue which is consistency uniform standards um that would be page page five yes actually no page four page four is where it starts

[01:59:59] So with the first issue, we heard consistency, and we've given you an example of one inconsistency in the ordinance regarding hours of operation.

[02:00:23] So rather than, you know, get mad about some of the other uses, hours of operation, I think it would be more appropriate to have a discussion about what we think would be the appropriate hours of operation for these equine-type uses. In addition, we got some paperwork from Mr. Ellis, who provided an expansive list of conflicts in the ordinance regarding outdoor recreation.

[02:00:51] I think, you know, rather than actually discussing some of those, each going line by line over each one of those issues, I think staff can recognize that we do agree that there are numerous conflicts and that we can commit to going forward and looking at all of those and seeing if we can rectify those issues during the amendments to the zoning ordinance when we prepare that draft.

[02:01:21] But with that, I think there's essentially three issues that I would like to discuss with this, one being the hours of operation, two being the lighting, and most of these equestrian lighting, equestrian uses are subject to the lighting standard, the general lighting standards of the zoning ordinance, which is 7.0502.

[02:01:46] And then three, there's a provision in the ordinance section 4.0803 and 4.0804 regarding vehicle limitations for agricultural support uses. And those are restrictions that are only subject to equestrian uses regarding vehicle limitations.

[02:02:09] Maximum for level one, two, and three size operations, it places maximums of 100 vehicles, 200 vehicles. and 300 vehicles for the operation of the event so the question again is you know is that something that we want to continue to have in the ordinance or is that something that we can look at rectifying in a in an amendment thank you madam chair thank you so we're going to go into committee of the

[02:02:43] whole and we're going to do it for 20 minutes and we'll have a one minute timer for each speaker so if you want to make a comment on consistency and uniform standards, please put on your microphone and I will call you. Hi, I'm John Lovegrove again. One of the things that Elon Musk for all his tiresome politics these days did is he's a great engineer. And one of the things he said is the

[02:03:22] best part is no part. And what that means is simplicity is key to something as complex as a machine or zoning ordinance. A lot of these standards, for instance, I think they apply to feed stores. They don't apply to stables where you have to get to an animal 24 hours a day. 100 parking spaces, 200 parking spaces, these are not applicable to what we're talking about. When we were working, we would get to the barn at about 7 o'clock at night. We would stay there until 11 or 12 at night, and, you know, we would catch up on our sleep

[02:03:59] on the weekends, so it was very, I just don't understand how these regulations apply to what's typical barn operation in Western Loudoun County. These seem to be more like feed stores or tax stores or places like that that really are support uses for equestrians.

[02:04:21] Yes, I have lots of things, but I'll try to keep it short. First, I think there are, In addition to the vehicle regulations in ag, there are also vehicle regulations in the use called cultural tourism.

[02:04:43] That's correct, yes. And so the question with things like that is why do we have different numbers of vehicles for different types of uses? Is the concern with the use or with the vehicles?

[02:04:58] And I think the answer is the concern is with the use. When, you know, we talk about many, many different kinds of uses, and somebody was mentioning in the interim that we have to think about innovation, too, and that things change over time, and we don't want to be slowing that down by defining things too narrowly.

[02:05:18] When I think of all of the issues that people are concerned about in terms of the impacts on neighboring properties, and that's the rationale for zoning regulations, there are five that I've written down that I know are in the ordinance right now and that people care about. One is blending with the landscape and there is a provision in the ordinance for that that applies to one use. There's regulations on the number of vehicles on properties because people are concerned about traffic nearby. There are regulations about lighting.

[02:05:56] One that it includes all at it is noise of course. That's not so germane here but there are concerned about noise, and two others that I mentioned earlier, trees and tree preservation and prevention of flooding, which is an increasing problem.

[02:06:12] And we know from recent experience down in the southern Appalachians that that's something we should be concerned about. So when I add those up, that's six or seven different issues that, you know, when we think about regulations, the purpose of them is to address those things, not to decide what the appropriate square footage of a barn or, you know, a livery stable or anything like that.

[02:06:34] And I think the test for any regulation that we are looking at is how does it relate to those impacts. And if we can identify a clear impact, then yeah, then there's a reason for regulating. If we don't have a clear connection between that regulation and impact, then it probably shouldn't be there because it could potentially interfere with business.

[02:06:56] this. Yeah, I just, I, sorry. Um, I, I kind of like to hear from Michael, how late do you normally, are you normally teaching? Teaching wise, I usually stop at 8.30 or 9.30. And then how late is your stable open for your boarders to ride? Officially, 24.7. Okay. So that would be my question, which is just sort of what are, what is the issue you're trying to address? Because I leave it open that riders can come whenever. I had a woman who worked for Lockheed Martin and

[02:07:32] got done at 3:00 in the morning, and I wasn't going to tell her she couldn't come see her horse in the morning. I thought she was crazy, but that's beside the point. But the other question, my issue is sort of what is it you're trying to address and to work it from there, because at a horse show, like if a place is at Morvin and so forth, the facility will be quietly running 24 hours a day, because at night the braiders come in and the grooms come in and do night checks and night work, and then the show people come in during the day. So what is the issue you're trying to address and work it backwards? Because

[02:08:07] telling the braiders they can't come at night is not something, because it's closed, is not going to work in that aspect. So I think the big question is sort of what are you trying to address and then figure out how you're going to regulate that, not do a set hour. Yeah, because my point in asking Michael is that, you know, a lot of that is very low impact on the surrounding community to say that you're going to do that. And what I was saying in my three minutes was that really the only hours that need to maybe be addressed is what time your larger event has to stop, right?

[02:08:42] And so if we are having the international, the Olympic horse trials, you know, what time do we expect that competition to easily end without having to jeopardize our status as being able carry on those things all the other things are really pretty pretty small potatoes with somebody that works odd hours that wants to come out and ride their horse to be told that the stable has to close at a certain time is kind of limiting to that person that wants to come out and enjoy it and it's not having a negative impact I mean if Michael doesn't mind that they're turning on the barn lights why should the county so you know we're looking at

[02:09:21] things that are you know to 10 pm for support uses but midnight for banquet event midnight for for bed and breakfasts unknown for breweries and um and wineries right so our impact is pretty slow pretty pretty minimal let's figure out if there is an impact during the events and if there's a time that is not going to be impinging on them let's try to work at that and that only yep

[02:09:55] Ditto. Except never start a discussion with Elon Musk. That's a very bad idea. But beyond that, I completely agree, because he's next. Mr. Turner, you're next. But I think the first question we should ask is, are we fixing a problem? And if we're not fixing a problem, not quite sure if we need to do it. And second question we need to ask is this, is this industry

[02:10:32] or this thing different for a reason? And so if it is appropriate to do something with horses at 4 a.m. that you wouldn't do at a banquet facility at 4 a.m., then we should look at that, look at the appropriateness of that use. And so to say everything should be consistent across the board is not completely logical. Sometimes you have to look at is there a problem is anyone complaining do we have people who are having an issue with it and then why are people up at 4 a.m with their horses because maybe there's something that you don't

[02:11:06] that that's happened to horses that doesn't happen at a banquet hall and so i think that it's it's it's i say hope so too i think that there's it's less focused on everything being consistent versus what's the issue we're trying to solve for thank you madam my chair um so looking at this chart here on the screen it seems to me that if we simply and to the point of you know can we simplify this if we just said for a public facing facility hours of 6 in the morning

[02:11:43] to 12 midnight pretty much covers all the public facing facilities and if it's a private activity like someone visiting their horse at 3 a.m then i don't think we should have any hours does that cover it, or am I oversimplifying it?

[02:12:01] Thank you. Chair. Oh, staff, please. Well, I hope I can save some time, too. I agree with Supervisor Turner and Dr. Fultman. I think that's a really good distinction, that no hours of operation unless it's a public facing event.

[02:12:17] Can I ask staff a real -- I want to ask a quick question. We're not just focusing on hours, right? There are other standards that we should be discussing, like buffering, lighting. There are. just take them one at a time that might be the okay so we'll get to buffering and then on the next issue okay so yeah I'm sorry I'll come back okay my brain yeah yeah um can I just ask the definition of a public facing event so I have public facing events okay so my I talked about

[02:12:53] the international fall horse trials and and the competitions that we're having those close up I I mean, those events close up by, you know, by dusk when the sun goes down. But we still have people, as was noted here, coming in and out, caring for the horses, having, you know, again, the equestrians showing up early in the morning because, again, they want to get a few rides in an indoor arena, things like that.

[02:13:19] So there's not the event closes up in time, but the access in and out is 7 by 24. I, for these shows, I'm mandated. I have to have security. So I have security on the property, but, again, I don't think that, you know, the smaller.

[02:13:37] You see, that's exactly what I was trying to, when I completely forgot what I was going to say. Because there's the actual event, so the competition, right? So either the polo competition or, you know, show jumping, whatever it is that's going on, that finishes before midnight, usually.

[02:13:56] But access to the facility, you know, if a show starts, if people start showing it at 8 a.m., they're there very early prepping their horse. I mean, they have to braid. Sometimes they have to bathe the horse. Sometimes they have to work the horse a little bit beforehand.

[02:14:14] They have to have all that done before they walk into the ring to present the horse at 8 a.m. So that's a different thing, because I think if we're worried about light and noise as being negative impacts to the surrounding community, well, maybe that's the biggest part is the competition that ends, but the access needs to still be granted.

[02:14:35] And that's sort of, that's the more, that's the larger scale of what Morven Park does. And then you have deliveries, which is what Mr. Portazzi's Cavallo is. And, you know, his stuff, he has it open all the time for his clients, but he's in there, he's finished teaching at a pretty reasonable hour.

[02:14:58] So, I mean, I think that we have to be very clear as to when we call something public-facing what that is, because I can see down the road, somebody from zoning is not going to know that, what that really means for equestrians.

[02:15:14] So we have to write it the right way, that it is not going to be negatively impacting what we want to do, especially for the larger events. Okay, so we've hit 20 minutes for this topic, for the hours, but I'm going to let Mr. Miller have the last word.

[02:15:30] I want to comment on what Supervisor Turner said and relating to this down here about public-facing versus, I think what Supervisor Turner was saying, that a public-facing event versus someone coming at 3 o'clock in the morning to ride their horse. We're talking about hours of operation for a business.

[02:15:49] Someone who boards their horse at a for-profit location, if they come at 3 o'clock in the morning to ride their horse, they're there. That business has to maintain hours of operation for them. And so if we're going to say that we're going to limit hours of operation to some period of time, just because the public is not invited to come and buy a ticket and come to some event doesn't mean that that's a public – it's a business.

[02:16:18] It's an hours of operation, and we need to be careful about the hours of operation because someone who's paying a fee to a business is a customer, and that business needs to be open to that customer, and sometimes it is riding a horse at 3 o'clock in the morning.

[02:16:33] And so I think we need to make sure we have a distinction between a public-facing event where you buy tickets to go to Morvan Park. Okay, that's an event. But the business itself, it's hours of operation. In many instances, they're going to be 24-7 because you're allowing opportunity for that person who pays you money to stable their horse to come and ride it at whatever hour they find appropriate.

[02:16:55] I want to be able to draw that distinction. And are we going to get to the parking thing in the next? Well, I think we're just doing hours right now. i feel like we've come to a consensus i feel like um so just just to clarify if if i have a right outdoor riding arena and i want and i want to allow three or four people to come at three in the morning and jump uh that would be okay or not okay that would be okay okay i think what you just did is walked into another issue because if you have an outdoor riding arena at three in the

[02:17:34] the morning now it's a lighting discussion too and the lighting discussion may be different than a time discussion depending on if neighbors around have an issue with the with the lighting so i think that that maybe the discussion is for for especially for horses what's indoor what's outdoor are maybe even more what are the neighbors around saying are you getting complaints from the neighbors because maybe at three in the morning outside and people jump in no one cares nobody care. And if no one cares, jump away, right? So I think that now you've entered a new discussion,

[02:18:09] and that's a discussion of lighting. Not to step on you, but to say part of that discussion is the buffers, and for us, especially people that are on smaller parcels, to have to be required to put in the buffer is taking away very precious land. For us to put a buffer in that a lot of these people don't even care, so I would say if the neighbor doesn't like my indoor ring or my outdoor ring, they can put a buffer in on their own property. Let's stick with hours. And then I think buffering was the next topic discussion. But let's try and come to a consensus with hours.

[02:18:43] Can I chime in for one sec there? With your model, you talked about my neighbor being mad if I jump at three in the morning. I'm not sure it's my model. No, but here's my question in reverse, which is if you impose that order and a customer comes at two in the morning to check their horse gets kicked am i now liable because i'm now working outside the zoning law so that's i mean if i'm if my customers come during non-business hours where's the liability and so forth on that end then in the reverse of that i i don't know that we can answer the liability question well

[02:19:21] We have liability to the zoning ordinance. That's a Dillon rule thing, actually. The one issue is what do my neighbors think, but the other is if you impose these ordinances and someone is violating them, do I then get in trouble because a border comes at 2 in the morning?

[02:19:37] If someone complains, they're usually complaint-driven. Wait, hold on. So, wait. The hours of the business. So, John, let's talk about, like, so I think we have two different things. We have the public facing facility, the events, which Stacey Metcalf mentioned, and then also kind of the 24-7 business.

[02:19:57] So I think those are the two that we're looking at for the hours. And, you know, one, I think we could come up with reasonable hours for the public facing versus the 24-7 business. You know, I don't know what that looks like, if that's 24-7, because you mentioned people come.

[02:20:16] You have about three minutes left. Okay, we have three more minutes. We need you to use your mic if you're, we need you on the record. Yeah, use your mic, please. I'm just asking what happens if you lock in hours and then you're breaking them for whatever reason that has nobody mad, but does someone, are you liable or is it a problem or what happens?

[02:20:35] I think the consensus, though, is that for business operation, that we don't want to be prescriptive about hours and that the only thing we want to be prescriptive about is for large public events. Public facing. I would agree with that. So we could be wrapped up with large public events by 11 o'clock.

[02:20:53] So if it was like that 4 a.m. to 11 o'clock, is that acceptable? Because I'm talking polo, like a lot of my other events, you know, 4 a.m. to 11 o'clock p.m. Yeah. Why don't we just make it midnight since there's so many other uses out there that are midnight? Yeah, I'm good with that.

[02:21:09] And then it's done. Most horse shows are not going to go that long, but that's also like saying I could technically be open until 2 a.m., but I don't choose to do that. Correct. And polo goes a little bit later. But no, I think midnight's great.

[02:21:24] And just for everybody to remember, equine did already have the morning extended to start at 4 a.m. I ask a point of order here. Are we going to decide the hours or are we going to let the staff research and come back to us? I think what we're doing is just coming to a consensus and then, yes, staff will be coming back.

[02:21:44] We'll be researching it. But we're trying to just come to a consensus. Can I just add something? I mean, I think I agree with the point. I think I've forgotten who made it. I think it may have been Cheryl Randall, that this is not really about the hours of operation. It's about the impacts of lighting and noise and so forth. And so I don't think we need any restriction on hours of operation if they have no impact on the neighboring properties.

[02:22:06] The question is, if you're going to have a rider come in at 3 a.m. and you're going to light up all the ball fields or something like that for them to ride, that may be an issue. And that's, you know, that's an issue of buffering in lighting. Okay. And we'll talk about that next, right?

[02:22:23] I don't know. After we're just focusing on the hours. Lighting would be a good segue for the lighting question. Okay. You know, right now the agricultural support uses are subject to the general lighting standards of the ordinance.

[02:22:38] So, you know, we heard comments about, you know, perhaps looking at requiring dark sky, dark sky approved lighting. um making sure that they're downward shielded we can do that but right now there are specific lighting requirements in the ordinance that basically everybody all the businesses in the county are subject to so um can you clarify is it the fit is it a 15 put 15 foot pole mounted or 25 foot pole mounted that's allowed i can pull it up while we yeah i think i can answer that question I think the general regulation is 25 feet,

[02:23:17] and then there are use specific lighting standards that have 15 foot. And one of the issues that I raised in my input was that some outdoor recreation uses, as well as equine and other uses, are subject to the 15 foot rule, and some are subject to the 25 foot rule.

[02:23:38] It's not really clear why, but there are differences, and that means differences in the light impacts from different uses in the rural areas. You're at 20 minutes on this. Okay well I think we're moving on to lighting from the hours although that's not in our slides but I do think we need to talk about lighting.

[02:24:00] So did you did you can you clarify which which is it 15 or 25? Ryan's pulling that up now. I'm going through it right now. Okay and I think it is by right. Am I right on the on the light poles right now i guess we yeah the agricultural support uses are subject to the lighting standards of section 7.05 which are essentially the you know the general light light requirements of the ordinance so and the height is 25 feet unless there's a greater standard and use specific

[02:24:39] standards or approved proffers or a special exception okay so let's let's discuss lighting knowing that it's 25 feet with the light poles well i would defer to people here about what kind of lighting is necessary and appropriate to a facility that's operating um during the dark door lighting yeah so the like polo in the park we have seven saturdays of polo in the summertime and we start the sun's out and then we end and it's the last second match is usually in

[02:25:17] the dark we have lighting that is around the arena we have lighting that is out in the parking lot to get people out safely that is all shut down by like 10 o'clock at the max so yeah i i have a thousand acres i have neighbors that understand that that's where they moved into and they're facing that thousand acres but that's pretty much what i deal with so i i would say that that that's obviously a unique situation. I wonder if it requires a little more research to understand what's an appropriate standard here that we won't be able to arrive at this tonight because we don't

[02:25:55] know, have enough expertise. I mean, I live across the street from somebody who built a polo field after I moved in. So, you know, they don't have a thousand acres buffer, but I think we. Stacy, can i just ask um the where that polo arena is is your shortest setback because the houses are on that road so they're on tut lane so i get that would be really everybody's saying oh it's a thousand acres but where that is lit is is closest to any of the residences that are surrounding

[02:26:30] morven park have there been complaints or do you know what the like the the light how intrusive of the light is over to those houses? No, and again, because it's summertime and we do shut, I mean, again, the lights are out by 10, maybe 1030, and the lights are down, you know, so everything's down lit, and then we rent lights in the parking lot in the field, which is the field behind the polo arena, which is closest to Tut Lane, and there's never been any complaints about that because they want to make sure there's safe passage out. I think lighting expertise is very

[02:27:05] specialized and having some consultation with somebody who can really like the ordinance um it's a cutoff at 10 p.m anyway yeah staff can commit to looking uh into further detail at the lighting requirements and i think we understand what the what the issue would be and you know there's really uh it's not hard to put a requirement that we don't have any spillover onto this uh property you know putting zero zero foot candle requirements on the property line for specific uses here in in the rural area so maybe that's something that that we could look at and

[02:27:40] look at it okay so we we need to move on because we're past the 20 minutes i'm just asking if you want to set an additional time limit for me to take keep track of but you are past the 20 minutes let's yeah let's move on to the next issue because we did get to the 20 minutes and it sounds like staff is going to look at lighting um and and look at um the size of a property like um morbon park is a much bigger property so the lighting has a lot of buffering so the next topic is contextual contextual appropriateness so so with with this one we have several issues that were brought up

[02:28:20] right now we would like to focus on setbacks structure sizes buffering and field parking so we've got four issues to talk about you know we've we've put some this is some of the feedback that we've heard in some of our preliminary discussions about, you know, looking at perhaps different ways to calculate the setbacks, you know, are our maximum structure sizes even necessary in this circumstance? And, you know, looking at buffering, the question was raised, if this is a

[02:28:57] core use in the rural policy area and you're expected to see these types of buildings in the rural area. Why are we requiring any buffering for these uses? You know, perhaps there's a meeting in the middle. We could look at reducing setbacks if there's landscaping provided on the property line. Again, it's for all of you to discuss, but those are the four issues that we would like to get out of this one. Great. Okay, so put on your light if you have comments on these four issues.

[02:29:29] so so would it be a special exception if you have a buffering requirement to you know and you would have landscaping and stuff like that to mitigate the um whatever the impact is to the neighboring property i mean would you handle it as a specs because you said it's a it's a it's a core use in the in the area so i don't see why where there would have to be any mitigation for a core use well i again that's that's for all of you to discuss i mean if you had a you know several

[02:30:07] thousand square foot riding arena right up on the property line so the question is if you don't like it should you as the property owner next door be the one putting landscaping in or or is there are are there particular particular screening requirements that you think would be necessary my neighbor put a giant barn next to my property so you know i had to kind of suck it up yes that's a good that's a good question and you know are these uses are these particular structures any different than a standard agricultural uh build farm building and you know should they be subject

[02:30:43] to the same same setback standards as if they put a banquet hall next to my property can i do i have a sec so so for at most ag it's 60 feet and that's why we thought that that was a reasonable thing to do um the and i'm i'm not beating up on limited breweries but they're 50 feet but wineries are 60 feet and there's a every other ag ag thing is 60 feet where we would i think most people would be happy doing that but to have to spend the money on buffering as well

[02:31:20] um especially if i don't even pretend what do you do if you don't have a neighbor there right now If there's no house on the property line, then what, somebody buys the house later on and I'm responsible as the business owner to now put a buffer in when there wasn't anybody in there before? I think it's really cleaner to say if the person next door doesn't like to look at your barn, your outdoor ring, or whatever it is, or your tasting room, they can plant evergreens or they can put a berm up themselves to block that.

[02:31:51] I was just going to reiterate that point and in the case of the 10-acre property that I spoke about, that's exactly what happened. The neighbor put up the trees because on 10 acres, everything, every square foot is precious if you're trying to run a horse business in particular, so.

[02:32:13] Okay. Thank you, Emily. I want to talk about field parking and the 25, 1500 acres. As I said, I've run into general comments before. We limit, right now we say that if you have 100 up to 100 acres, you have up to 300 parking spaces.

[02:32:32] For every acre you go beyond, that's two additional cars. Glenwood Park, I believe, is 114 acres. That would mean 328 cars. Last month, they stepped in in a big pinch and hosted Gold Cup.

[02:32:48] so if you consider the size of vehicles our garage doesn't have garages your your typical space for a garage is 10 by 20. let's say all 320 of those vehicles were ford expeditions and took up the entire 10 by 20 space you added 50 for dry vials you're looking at approximately 92 93 000 square feet that's two acres you've just said the and you assume two people per car you said right now we have gold cup at glenward park 656 people can come you got your mind right so we we're

[02:33:26] arbitring you guys have a thousand acres yeah so yeah you know so you you're going to put um another you have 1100 acres you can put another two per hunt for thousands two thousand two per acres is 2000 you have 2300 cars exactly so i'm lucky and our just so you know our parking totals at morton park are 407 000 square feet so all of our parking areas if you add it up that's 9.34 acres of parking that we're allowed to have but not all but again it's because we've got a thousand acres because we run our equestrian events across our property if you don't have that then you can't

[02:34:05] have a number of vehicles that's an arbitrary number it is it was pulled out of the sky if we're going to have limits on parking get chief johnson in here tell us what's actually safe from a protecting people in the event of an incident and i think there's a little bit of a difference between the daily use say of a livery and when they hold an event as well right so that's why we want to be able to have field parking for that spillover so i think there's a bit of a difference between a morven park and then something that is having a daily much smaller number like cavallo

[02:34:42] but that they also have the right to have horse shows and we don't want to limit that we want to be able to have that as not designated parking but spillover and we do the same things when 868 has their stuff when bro has their stuff and it doesn't bother anybody There does become a point, though, the opposite side of this is, while I'm suggesting 300 is not nearly enough if you have 100 acres, if you're small, at some point you do get into a problem of too many vehicles.

[02:35:15] There's road problems, backing up on the road, things of that nature. There still is safety. That's why I talk about having Chief Johnson or the fire marshal really be the one more that dictates parking and how we can operate on roads. On the flip side of that also, though, you go to an event at Morven Park, you come on Tut Lane, and there will be backups.

[02:35:33] Oh, yeah. Some of those backups are on to 15. Not because of Morven Park, because 15 is this wide. Okay. So there are other reasons why you have parking problems or traffic problems. The physical facility itself and the acreage on that facility should not necessarily be the driving factor of how many cars can go there.

[02:35:52] And we have to think about four events. Right. The daily people that go to Morven Park, you're not going to have 300 cars at Morven Park. what i'm saying there's a huge distinction between what is daily use and i think that that's what these x these support use is talking about your daily use and that's a that's completely different than what these events are producing but we need to govern so again you need to govern against that we can't say 300 and never be cut off shouldn't it be based on a trap i mean you know i hate to say this but the traffic of on a gold cup at glenwood park is much different than a typical you know horse racing weekends so absolutely there's traffic studies that are done regularly for

[02:36:31] special events you know they're there's and they're very simple to do you know you're just going to be technically you just did the calculation you're going to have x number of people um foxcroft road can only handle so many cars per hour so you know base it on something real instead of some arbitrary number and that's what i'm getting at and now the the traffic issue also become that's where you get into fire marshal um fire chief traffic planning and things of that nature but at the same time we also can't lose sight of the fact that sometimes you're gonna have traffic because it's a popular event the old saying the only reason we have traffic during rush

[02:37:06] hours is people are going to jobs you know there's no jobs and there's no traffic okay so sometimes traffic that backs up on tut lane onto 15 is good because there's an inordinate amount of people coming from three different states to go to polo in the sun and we want that the one thing i'm more interested in the fact that it has you have the non-permeable surface issue because for horse shows smaller ones if you're day parking your horse is standing on the trailer the last thing i want it doing is standing on anything but grass and so for a specific on a lot of these activities

[02:37:44] the horses themselves are better off on grass it's different for your spectators and the number of people you're allowing but strictly on an animal aspect i don't pave my roads i don't want any pavement around my farm for the very specific fact of the animals and so demanding i do something that's not in the animal's best interest is totally against what you're i totally understand limiting the number of people but not what's best for the animal okay i just wanted to make sure we were all aware that that currently the facility standards manual

[02:38:19] has a provision that due to the rural nature of a facility if it's not feasible or practicable I can't even say that word but basically you don't have to provide the 18-foot travel aisle or the marked designated spaces if you provide like on your sketch plan or your site plan a note of how you're going to help the trap the traffic navigate your site it could be signage it could be people but right now the fsm already has some leeway that doesn't require all those parking spaces but i feel like i'm hearing

[02:38:57] you know the two different two different um issues and one that in general the required parking is too too much just in general than regular parking ratio and the travel aisles for the fire marshal they have to be at least 18 feet wide and you can't have parking within 30 feet of the entrance so there's a lot of things already in place that we just want to make sure we're all aware of okay great how about the structures because that was something we talked um that was mentioned anything about structures right now uh for the largest scale uh equestrian event facility the maximum

[02:39:34] with over 50 acres would be 36 000 square feet up to 100 acres so and that's the maximum size of an individual building no that's all that's all built buildings there's total buildings is 36 000 square feet there's also a maximum size of a single building so that's another hindrance and i'm trying to look that up right now yeah i've heard from um different stakeholders that the 36 thousand is is too small right kelly because there's a need for more way too small okay in

[02:40:12] aggregate it's it's impossibly small it would be the aggregate yeah it's impossibly small um john ellis yeah um i i yeah my opinion about this is that there's no real reason to regulate structure size um unless it impacts neighboring properties and so the the bigger issue would be you know Anybody who's moving into Western Loudoun should not be surprised to see a horse wandering near their property line.

[02:40:39] Hopefully behind a fence, but maybe not. But somebody can legitimately be concerned about the construction of the big facility on their property line. And so I think the difference for setbacks is not relevant to the general use, but it's specific to the structures.

[02:41:00] And the size of the structures doesn't really matter. I think it's more of how close they are to neighboring property lines. I have a couple of other things, but not to interfere with this particular discussion. Let's talk about structures. Hi.

[02:41:19] When speaking about structures, I mean, I think it does play into setbacks and how the size of a structure and setbacks can be in correlation with one another. I mean, I think a number of 50 feet in ag may be appropriate, may not, I don't know, but the size of the structure and the setback could be in scale.

[02:41:36] And in aggregate, combining a maximum doesn't seem realistic when you're looking at the size of the facilities it takes to host these events, especially if you're striving to reach, say, Olympic level or if you want to host people inside. I mean, these are going to be substantially larger combined structures.

[02:41:56] And then when you talk about the boarding facilities and all the other accessory uses on, say, a thousand-acre site or otherwise, I think, you know, you could really, you know, if you eliminate the structure sizes and maybe play with the setbacks, you could come up with a result where it opens the pathway for people to be innovative in a way to think of what best serves their site and their specific needs.

[02:42:17] Can I just -- something on this table, which is 4.0803-5, is saying that 5 to 25 acres, is your maximum size for a single structure is 12,000 square feet. That's 60 feet away. But then you can have a 24,000 square feet, but only if you're between 25 and 50 acres size, and you have to be 120 feet away. And then if you're greater between 50 acres and 100 acres, you can have up to a 36,000 square foot building if it's 175 feet. So even though, you know,

[02:42:51] We're also still limiting the size of structures because if you have a livery on between 15 and 24 acres, your largest size structure can only be, single structure can only be 12,000 square feet. Again, I don't know why we're limiting square footage.

[02:43:09] The question is if it's an agricultural building, a standard ag building is not subject to those requirements. And that's why we want to throw it out. It's just simply subject to the FAR requirements for the lot. Could I ask that question?

[02:43:27] I think is the key to what we're doing here. What's the limit on a cattle farm on the size of the barn? Is there no limit? No. Okay. Why do we have a limit on structures on a horse farm? It would be floor area ratio.

[02:43:44] Okay, floor area ratio. Are they doing that on a dairy? It's not typically floor area ratio. It's lot coverage. and it's going to be like I think it's in most AR districts it's I think it's as a point one is the lot coverage okay so and that's collective size of all okay footprints of all structures so you're not talking about four area which is also vertical and that works for agricultural uses right that seems to be working why are we taking a horse farm and saying it's any different that's why i don't understand that agricultural support to me is agricultural support is a feed store

[02:44:23] it's a it's a tax store it's not the place where the horses live 24 7 and need to be taken care of well it may be a tax store or something like that that's on a horse farm and that's why it's okay that's fine that's why that's not what we're talking exactly we're talking about i think we're all in agreement i think we're all i think we have consensus this is an easy one this one's easy and all of them are related to agricultural support if it's an agricultural use then all of this goes away it's academic yeah i think the we we have direction on all of the issues except for the buffering and screening yes okay so let's go to

[02:44:58] that um the buffering i feel like we didn't we talk about the buffering 60 feet yeah well that's setback. Oh, that's a setback. Okay. So the buffering. That's what Kelly said. Okay. So the buffering. Let's discuss that. Anybody want to talk about the buffering? Kelly?

[02:45:20] Oh, I've already said enough. Okay. Say it again. Say it again. I think that we kind of get into a quagmire, especially if some of these places don't, you know, if it's 60 feet from the lot line and currently there's no house on that adjacent lot, 10 years from now somebody buys that lot and puts a house on it am i now required to put up a buffer i mean so i think that the adjacent homeowner is quite willing to put up a buffer somebody did that for for for a ring that was in my on my farm before i bought it um the ring was there they they put

[02:45:56] they put screening up after i bought it on their own property janet i think you said that on your property when your house was built all the people surrounding you put up screening okay okay all right yeah thank you casey yeah when it comes to buffering i think it also uh factors in the type of construction that you utilize to build the building i mean if old buildings you look all around western louden county and they were built out of uh just rough timber on stone not really well insulated i mean there's very low bar here built very well some not but most

[02:46:34] were and so if you can adequately address noise light with the type of construction that you use in your facility i would argue that there would be no any type of buffering required because you've you've you've overcome the buffering issue with the type of construction measure you use which adequately addresses any concern that the neighbor may have okay yeah thank you casey okay we have two minutes yes or um considering the size of the neighbor's property if you have 150 acres and you want to build something on it and the neighbor next door on 60 acres their house is

[02:47:10] 15 acres away where in the right where in the property are you if you've built your house on your 60 acres 120 feet from the property line well um i i think um there that sort of is a segue Casey's point is a segue to something I wanted to raise that wasn't specifically on this, but we do have a provision in the zoning ordinance relating to country clubs that requires -- that echoes the language of the comprehensive plan, by the way, saying that structures should blend

[02:47:44] into the landscape and they shouldn't be on ridge lines and things like that. I think a lot of these issues concerned with buffers and and and setbacks and things like that could be addressed also but with the with the requirement by being consistent on that requirement that that structures blend in with the landscape i wanted since it's one of the lists on the list here i wanted to return briefly to lighting and just to say that the the responses that i heard from people in my little community of of conservation people about issues they were concerned about lighting was very definitely, exterior lighting was very much on the top

[02:48:23] of their list of concerns. So I think that's important. And the other comment I wanted to make is I think Morven Park is to a certain extent, you know, unique. It's in a unique location and it's a unique size. But putting a facility like that on a 50-acre property on Route 287, for example, would be quite different have quite a different impact. So I think we need to keep that in mind. And then the last point I wanted to make is, with respect to Kelly's point, is that I don't think we need to worry too much

[02:48:58] about existing structures and, you know, what's there -- we're talking about future development. So, you know, I think that should be our primary concern. People are not going to have to -- we don't have to anticipate future development and future structures. thank you so we're at one quick comment kelly because we're at almost no i mean what i'm saying is that if i built a new structure on my farm um and there's and right now there's nothing next to my farm but somebody somebody buys that later on am i am i supposed to then put a buffer in no no i'm sorry i was i was unclear on that is that if something is there

[02:49:38] existing yeah you know then then i don't think there would be any such and i think we all agree that they wouldn't have to do that when i ask one quick question our outdoor arenas are not considered structures right i just clarification on that okay okay i just wanted to jump in and with land use and land use buffers it's the responsibility of this the site itself the use itself to do their own buffering and screening so the question is does the specific use require buffering we sometimes we have a different buffer requirement if it's agriculture against

[02:50:14] agriculture maybe there's no buffer that's needed agriculture against what use i don't want to say residential but sometimes my sense is you're hearing no is the answer to that and that if people then it's not a requirement for somebody to buffer on their property but it is always their option but the answer to is it required for the agricultural use the answer i think that most people were saying was that it's no so so you're you're asking a technical question if you're giving a permit you can make someone put a buffer in okay you can't make the next part the person

[02:50:50] next door put a buffer correct yes we're going to move on to the next topic um chair turner i didn't reach out to you did you have your hand up just real quick before we move on i did not you're good okay all right so i think we got through setbacks buffering field parking and structures so now we're on to the next topic which is defined equestrian standards topic three so this is this is a fairly straightforward uh issue uh we have several equestrian uses that are rolled into the

[02:51:24] agricultural support uses uh standards in the ordinance the question is do we pull those out do we add add provisions for polo uh again fox chasing was not was not uh contemplated in the current ordinance so those those essentially use-based uh type questions okay wonderful can i jump in just a little bit historically so you know we did this once before and in 93 it in in

[02:51:57] 2015 it became apparent that what kept happening is oh what you're doing isn't exactly in the zoning ordinance so let's write it in and let's make a new use standard so apparently we had so many use standards for all of these equine things fox who knows probably fox chasing polo you know dressage whatever and so so the thing was is try to come up with fewer numbers and see if by the size of the operation a lot of different uses can fit within that and I think that we might be able

[02:52:33] to still do that if we are logical about the biggest complaints which is noise and light and so if we're doing our jobs with that we probably don't have to say let's have a specific use standard for polo let's have a specific use standard for fox chasing let's have a specific use standard for people that want to you know whatever right because something else is going to come down the pike if we they can all be fit into one of these three things if we do it right that's my only point I disagree somewhat because needing a standard for something

[02:53:12] that's an agricultural use is kind of a it's a non sequitur there's a none of the agricultural uses have standards per se there's there's very little limit on agricultural uses in this county and I submit that this is an agricultural use by putting them under agricultural support uses you now introduce the idea that there has to be a standard, and, you know, why create a problem that doesn't exist?

[02:53:38] I mean, I don't know what the number are of complaints that the county gets, but, you know, I don't know if it's one or a million, or... That's it. Lights and sound. That's about it. Lights and sound. Okay, light and sound. I've got the statistics. So, why are we talking about building size?

[02:53:56] Why are we talking about parking spaces? Well, I would bring up, I do want to bring up Polo, and I know my friend at Marvin Park, has a huge property, 1,000 acres. I am wondering if Polo, it's listed under Equestrian Event Facility, if that should be more under outdoor recreation because the field is 300 yards by 160 yard grass field and it requires lighting, it has noise with that intercom And, you know, some of the poles are exceed 25 feet.

[02:54:33] So I'm just wondering, I want to bring a polo as something specific to talk about. I think that that is definitely brings the same issues as any athletic field would bring. Right. That certainly can cause issues, especially with traffic and lighting.

[02:54:50] And the addition of the trailers for the horses also introduces another element of that. I think there's a distinction between a private polo field which is strictly for practice during the day no no cars coming in and events that are done at like places like Morvan Park where there's a you know there's there's people attending it's done at night so there's I think that needs to be just a distinction a number of matches well they may or they may not I mean a private facility may not do any of that

[02:55:24] so maybe that's something like you do with a with event facility or or banquet facilities there's X number they can do a year you know they were limited somehow if they're doing if it were considered an event the minimum size start size is 25 acres what may be easy to do is to say for the size of this if this grass field because you're talking outdoor polo you're not talking about arena you're talking outdoor you know does that have to be maybe a bit larger you can always write in polo needs to be on to start out being on 30 acres or what is going to work for this particular

[02:56:03] use but a private field should not have to meet the same standard because they may never have an event on that field i would say my experience is that the polo club i'm not splitting hairs there's There's a lot of private polo fields that never have events on.

[02:56:19] Well, they have, the polo clubs compete against each other, and so even though they don't have events per se like Morvan Park might, they will have, you know, yeah, little matches with two or three different teams competing.

[02:56:36] But they don't have lights, and they don't have an announcer, and they don't have spectators. They do have small numbers. They have two trailers. Tying, the recommendation that it gets tied to the size of the property generally is very useful here because it is then more contained on that private property.

[02:56:56] So I think that's the best solution and then addressing light. I do think some private polo fields do have the lights and the intercom. So I do want to throw that out there. And that's where you need to still look at lights and you need to look at the size of the property that you have to use it.

[02:57:11] It's, my understanding, the county currently allows 10 polo, 10 permits per year for specific events for polo that we would grant to an individual property. Under a special permit? Yes. So that's just like the B&Bs for their special permits.

[02:57:29] So, I mean, the question, I guess for clarification, would be, is say a permanent large-scale polo facility, something that we might want to pull out as similar to an outdoor outdoor recreation its own category and just put the specific requirements what are you going to do about morbin park i mean a lot of their rings are outside i think that this just gets this this starts to get it really confusing yeah exactly would it make more sense rather than pulling in all the outdoor rec

[02:58:09] requirements to make a specific exception or acknowledgement that there may be polo facilities that host competitions that have these other additional requirements. Exactly. That's the easiest way to do it. I'd just like to endorse the point that Kelly made.

[02:58:27] I think the idea of trying to separate all the different potential uses out and all the parameters, I mean, there are lots and lots of different things that you can do just within the equine field. And trying to identify them all and identify separate requirements for each of them just just seems that way you end up with inconsistencies based on the discussion tonight i think we're finding out that we could probably consolidate a lot of these uses with with uh similar similar restrictions exactly yes you may have to tweak like acreage we all want the lights to be you know addressed anyway lights and sound do you think lights should be by right

[02:59:05] i don't think we have enough information i'm sorry i don't think we have enough information to know that to to have that answer uh so i i think what we want to do is i mean because i think that this has also to do with with our parks if lights you know lights are lights all the emails i get i'm sending it to all of you yeah no i know i mean that's that's the problem i think i think we don't want to create a problem but then we have to put that yeah because that's that's a difference i think what you need to do is is if it's by right it has to be by certain specifications right that

[02:59:40] the candlelight can't whatever it is it can't be I I have found and I don't know if you can do that truthfully yes I agree with that knowing and the supervisors should know that that you're still going to get complaints if there's a light out there I don't care how how directed it is and how even small it doesn't bleed at all we're still going to get complaints that's just that's just how it is so what's so we should actually do I mean the answer is I agree with that you you stay you can say by right with within these specifications it's not really a

[03:00:13] development question what what are they what are the requirements now yes for lighting they're already in place the maximum illumination is not to exceed point two five foot candles above the background light levels measured at the lot line okay so it's all they're already in place yes but we don't know whether we were talking before about zero foot candles at the lot line I don't whether that's possible and down lying and there's downlining maximum height and the 0.25 is is countywide if you would want to make a separate regulation at zero we would need some guidance

[03:00:52] i don't think we could do that i think is anyone in the industry having issues with what the current current ordinance states so let's maybe not jump off that cliff My response to that is that a lot of neighbors are, so there is that interest as well.

[03:01:19] How do we know that? We're number one. Well, Chair Randall just. But, John, you're saying that Mickey Gordon should be Dark Sky, right? Well, Dark Sky doesn't help. So what does that mean, though? Dark Sky is up. The lighting standard down is a whole different.

[03:01:38] Okay, so that's what needs to be written in, right? Is the dark sky requirements. When they're turned off, I see how it uplights. How it uplights. All dark sky does is direct up. Correct, correct.

[03:01:53] So that's the thing. Those are the standards that you have to have in to do it. How burdensome is that? Can I finish my point? I'm sure it does. $800,000 for Mickey Gordon. Yeah, I know. Sorry, I just wanted to finish that up by saying whatever the standards say, if it's consistent with the standard, that's by right.

[03:02:19] There are, and almost all these requirements, there are exceptions, permitted exceptions. And so, you know, I think part of it is saying what is the right standard that's going to be by right, and then what is the process for making exceptions to that, and what are the justifications for exceptions to that.

[03:02:35] And I think there are legitimate exceptions. I know, at least from the community I talk to, that people would like to see less light pollution in western Loudoun. And so if we can strengthen those standards, I know of a lot of your constituents who would appreciate that without hindering businesses.

[03:02:54] John, would you say the issue is with lighting at the property line or general lighting up? It's preventing me from seeing the stars. It's actually both, but most of the complaints are direct light or glare.

[03:03:12] And, you know, the shielded lighting, you know, is supposed to prevent, you know, from light from going on to neighboring properties. It doesn't. And it depends, well, to a certain extent. And it depends on the angle. Are you above or below and lots of different things.

[03:03:28] So, you know, I think it's both the issue. But from the dark sky's perspective, it definitely is glare off of structures and other things that prevents you from seeing the sky, and which also interferes seriously with a lot of different wildlife.

[03:03:47] Thank you. On the light topic, we always have to be careful, because the whole point of all this, when we did this back in 2003, was to have opportunities to do something with your land other than build houses on it. So we need to be careful.

[03:04:04] We always need to be careful about saying no to so many things because at the end of the day, the alternative is the thing that nobody really wants. Rooftops. Rooftops. I want to make a comment on the field size for polo.

[03:04:19] And I'm just to bring the topic up for an idea. And I've only been to arena polo at Morvin and the place in Falk here called Great Meadow. Great Meadow. I've never seen full-size polo. I just looked at -- I've been the numbers guy tonight.

[03:04:34] US Polo Association says a full-size outdoor polo field is 300 yards by 160 yards, which is a hair under 10 acres. So you can't have a polo field on a 15-acre parcel. Exactly. That's my point.

[03:04:52] So if we want to distinguish polo, separate that out, having a minimum size parcel on which you can have full-size polo is probably the whole thing is probably wise so that someone with 12 acres yes doesn't build a full-size or someone that has acreage that says oh i'm going to build a polo field and they really just want to dump junk places and does this group feel that polo should stay under equestrian event facility or should move to outdoor rec oh no well no that's

[03:05:30] I think you're creating a whole different problem. What is Morven Park, then? Well, but Morven, we mentioned Morven might be. What about if you want to build, if somebody wants to build another Morven Park, what are they going to be?

[03:05:45] Are they going to be outdoor rec with outdoor rings, or are they going to be an equestrian event? I mean, we can. Exactly. It is outdoor rec. I think, well, maybe staff can look into it, but I hear you, Mr. Miller, that they're big.

[03:06:01] And I had researched that, too. 300 yards by 160 yards. It's 10 acres. They're huge. But they're hardly ever used. Right, right. That's the thing. Right. You're absolutely right. We can draw it. Research that? Yeah. We can research it, yes. Okay. How about, quickly, because we don't, well, we have five minutes.

[03:06:18] Do people agree fox chasing should be a by-right use and be in the zoning ordinance? So, you know, we've been talking about this, and, you know, we don't regulate hunting in the zoning ordinance. Is this really any different? Currently, essentially, Fox Club's main issue is the kennels. So they're regulated by the kennel standards. Perhaps there's just a way we can modify the definitions of kennels just to make sure that fox hunting is at least

[03:06:53] recognized in the ordinance so everybody knows that this use was contemplated. may be a different statement to say that it's a private kennel or versus a versus a commercial kennel because you're not boarding outside dogs coming in and out it they're they're the hounds that are for the hunt but otherwise i think a fox chase stable with their horses that are usually for the huntsman maybe some borders could easily fit into either private or livery and so again

[03:07:30] we don't need to create a whole separate use standard you just need to be able to fit in the kennel and if anybody's concerned that the state's going to come down or people are going to say oh we don't like fox chasing that's a whole different thing that's not I think that in in in our ordinance we should change the word hunting to chasing because supposedly there is a difference yes I for I one thing about my friend Mr. Kirshner that I've learned is he's if he's hunting something which he does pretty well every day he's usually even doing it because it's a nuisance because he's literally feeding his family i mean like literally he uses it just just flat

[03:08:08] chasing foxes for the hunt just to have them hunted down to kill for no other use but a recreational use is something that i find fairly abhorrent just i just do so fox chasing or dragging is a different issue than fox hunting and so i don't believe we should let the words hunting be used at all right i think it's old it's old jargon laura agree i have one comment though that i still i think it's an agricultural use not an agricultural support use and the animals the hounds which are

[03:08:45] who are pampered these kennels are not one of the problems is when you go to the kennel standards it talks about companion animals, and companion animals are treated much differently than agricultural animals. So when you put it in the agricultural standard, then they become, you know, agricultural, they become livestock.

[03:09:07] And I think that they're treated, they're boarded outside, they're not, they're not people dogs, you know, they're just like livestock guard dogs on some of the farms we have. They don't, they're there to take, to keep predators away from the sheep or whatever, you know, the calves that are being raised.

[03:09:26] So I think it makes much more sense to be under agriculture. I'm sorry. All right. No, that's good. Okay. We only have a few more minutes. I just want to make sure staff has agricultural support uses here. I heard, Kelly, you say that maybe we don't want agricultural support uses and to pull out.

[03:09:44] We don't want equine uses in agricultural support. That's the next discussion. So we feel that this is a primary ag use, and so it should have minimal standards within the straight ag.

[03:10:00] So it should be 4.0806 or whatever that is, right? Before we move on to the next one, just really quick, the minimum size for an equestrian event facility is 25 acres. that is that something that we want to lower or split into two i think personally if you're talking about having a polo field as part of a equestrian event you could have levels of it and say for a polo field it needs to be but not on larger property maybe even for but i don't know i would put the question to people saying if you're trying to have an event facility i don't

[03:10:37] think 25 acres is a no-go but maybe i'm maybe i'm i think there are a ton of little tiny barns have shows on way less than 25. But that could be a livery because a livery is still allowed to have small shows if you if you are operating as a show facility only right whether or not you that that's your main thing so say 51 percent of your number of days a year in operation is hosting events that's an event facility a livery can still have some small shows the liveries can have

[03:11:13] small shows this has it right in it okay i i just want it because we heard that you know the small shows are important for for morvin park too so i just want to make sure that we're not hindering we're almost at the 20 minutes so anything else that we need clarity on no i think i think we can move on to the next okay next topic thank you on what topic on the on what we talked about about fox chasing and whatnot okay um i also need to make sure we distinguish talk about fox chasing being the the barn for the dogs used to need to make sure that fox chasing itself is a multi-parcel

[03:11:50] multi-property event not you're not chasing on someone's property you go from property to property to property one might host it if they can't start but it's going to go all through Miles, in some cases. Right, but the hunts do that.

[03:12:06] We need to be careful to make sure we don't take away from that ability. All we're talking about is the stables for the horses and the kennels for the dogs. Thank you, Mr. Miller. Next topic. Thank you. Okay, this one may be quick. Dr. Fultman brought up, it's essentially the issue of the agricultural support uses basically being referenced in the definitions that a lot of these equestrian uses are accessory to another agricultural use being on site.

[03:12:40] So essentially the question is, you know, do we want to remove these equestrian uses from the agricultural support uses category and create its own separate equestrian uses? That's been both REDC's and LCEA's position for years.

[03:12:57] It needs to, you know, we are straight ag. The federally we are equine are now considered livestock. We should be, we are a primary agricultural use. So to stick us into something else as support or accessory is really degrading what we actually are.

[03:13:17] And 90% of the time we are caretaking for our animals 24-7 a day. So if we need some sort of built-in small use standards, which is what we've been talking about, you can put those in. That's their own thing, right?

[03:13:33] It's, I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it's 4.08.06 or something like that, right, which is, might be livery and an event might be another one, but it's not, it's not referenced to ag support. Thank you. Anybody else want to talk about that?

[03:13:49] Okay. This is nice. Excuse me. I just have a question. Would you consider yourself animal husbandry, or is that also different? Animal husbandry, equine care is animal husbandry, and I said that in my statements as well. So that needs to be added to the definition. Jason, you stole my question.

[03:14:05] My next question was, should animal husband, should equine be added to the definition? I had that course in undergrad. It's actually covered in that definition as it exists now, as livestock, just like you said, Dr. Fulton. Do we need to clarify, though, or does livestock cover it?

[03:14:26] It falls within the definition of livestock. I would feel more comfortable with that than trying to identify all the different livestock. You could easily say that equine falls within the definition of livestock. I think, Chris, I'm going to go to my partner in REDC back there.

[03:14:46] Yeah. I just want to, maybe if this is a risk, but the hounds are also, I consider, livestock. they're taken care of as livestock. Maybe that's a push, but there's gun dogs, there's other sporting animals, and they're not companion animals, and maybe that's something that you guys need to go back and take a look at. No, that's correct, and what you're what you're diving into is exactly the distinction within the definition of animal husbandry. Again, we don't call out specific animals. It says that livestock are covered in animal husbandry, and then it

[03:15:24] excludes companion animals or pets. And hounds are not companion animals, correct. I mean that would be up to zoning to just write in specifically that hounds that are actively being used for fox chasing are considered livestock. Yeah, we can make that clarification and livestock are not companion animals. Thank you. One more question for this This category would be, I think it was Dr. Fultman's presentation.

[03:15:57] We have owner or occupant listed as a requirement for operating a facility and you had requested owner or lease. It just seems like, I mean, so many of the farms are being leased these days, so we don't want to have anything, and maybe that's just semantics, but that, it may be unnecessary, but we need to make sure that these farms can be leased.

[03:16:19] has any objection to yes okay yeah i was just gonna say i put that in my talking points too because it accounts for rentals so they're operating the rentals are operating things thank you so we're we're um we only have we only went into three minutes in this one oh wait no we have 20 i know but but we have like 15 more minutes yeah so um can we add on towards the end the caretaker um i know housing is going to be a separate

[03:16:56] yeah labor farm labor um to the discussion just because i've heard a lot about that can i don't see that as an item here but maybe we could add that as a discussion point if i can just kind of stay i i gave you brian um uh the information from ohana and i think in their letter they talked a little bit about the difficulties that they had in trying to to get the apartments that they wanted in and so it does say like if we are trying to take some of the issues that are in

[03:17:30] ag support and and either completely eliminate them or modify them in terms of straight uh standards for liveries or event centers it does allow for tent for for uh worker housing or tenant housing worker housing is tenant housing but the problem was is that the tenant housing definition that they were being told was it had to be a separate structure, which is actually kind of laughable because they spent $100,000 trying to get a special exception in when their square footage was over what was allowed for the lot size.

[03:18:05] So, and you're asking to have more square footage put in by having separate dwelling structures. So I can, I don't even, I would just kind of avert my eyes to the number of facilities out there that have apartments that are totally legal and they're gone through, you know, whatever standards you have to have that are within Barnes yeah apartments within so apartments within bound that's and so that was a specific thing that I said but you have to go through whatever the codes are anyway I I can tell you that tenant housing does it allows for multiple family units I think there's a

[03:18:39] maximum of 2,500 square feet I'm not sure if the zoning ordinance says anything about saying it has to be in its own separate building specifically And maybe they just had bad luck in whoever they were working with. We can certainly dive deeper into it.

[03:18:58] I think the easy thing is to say it could be like an accessory. What is the term for short-term rentals that are, like, say, above a garage or anything like that? It wouldn't really be that, though. But it really wouldn't be that. No, no, no, no, no.

[03:19:14] But I'm just saying that that structure use, it wouldn't be, yeah, it could be an attached something, I don't know. Just speaking from the issues that I run into, I'm Jason with the county attorney's office. I think the concern is how are these ag structures with dwelling units in them regulated?

[03:19:34] Are they something that by virtue of putting the dwelling unit in it, the building official is then issuing a building permit for the entire structure? Or is there just a building permit, occupancy permit issued for the dwelling unit itself? So that's one of the concerns. I know there are a lot of people going out there getting the necessary approvals, whatever those may be, but there are also people out there that are just putting them in ag structures without getting approvals.

[03:20:01] I'm aware of ones that are out there that don't have addresses, which is a pretty good indicator that they didn't bother to get permits, and that's a fire health safety issue. So that's the biggest concern is, I mean, if the building official says, yes, this is how you put one into an ag structure and we are regulating it the same as, you know, a standalone accessory dwelling unit or, you know, a principal dwelling unit, I don't think there's a problem.

[03:20:28] But the issue is, is that actually compatible under building code? And I think that's the question that we all want to have. And I don't think that that is specific to equine. I think it's going to be something across ag. so I think it's worthwhile making sure that it can, how it could be done.

[03:20:46] Yeah, and I think equine is unique in the 24-7, you know, so it's nice to have that caretaker's, you know, place for the caretaker for the horses. Yeah, and I was not trying to single out equine. Casey? Yeah, I think this could also be tied back into using the overall ratio of coverage of the land as a factor versus a square foot basis, saying like the 2,500 square feet being the maximum allowable square footage for one of those housing units or complexes or what have you could be a hindrance and unnecessary burden placed on ag use when you don't see those type of requirements on typical ag buildings altogether

[03:21:24] just because it's going to house the people there. And also you've got to think the opportunities that you could be missing out on when you want to house, say, students or vocational learning programs and the type of facilities you would need would definitely exceed 2,500 square feet in most situations or cause you to build multiple buildings.

[03:21:41] I'd also address that not limiting it to a single parcel, but as long as the units are on adjacent or adjoining parcels could also be built and tied to that use as long as you can correlate the connection between that construction and the use being permitted.

[03:21:59] You know, as long as it's all working together, right? But, again, creating opportunities and looking at this from a different perspective in order to promote the flexibility within an ordinance for people to be innovative in a way that they can find a solution to problems that we aren't even conceiving.

[03:22:16] Anybody else? Yep. Mr. Miller. So I am all for grooms housing. You talk about all sorts of things to have apartments that house people that work on the facilities. We run into, this is where the broader issue of the zoning ordinance comes into play, though.

[03:22:36] We can say that somebody that has 100 acres, to be more precise, 99 acres, can, for a reason, because 50 acres zoning in some parts of the county. You can have a facility where you can house tenant workers or grooms, stuff like that, and you could have 20 of them living there.

[03:23:00] But then the guy that owns, or gal that owns 147 acres can only build two houses. And that's a problem for some of the larger agricultural operations. Right, right. There's some, we have to be careful about taking the discussion we're having now and having someone from the outside come back and say, well, then why can't I just have 30 people living on my 150 acres in 17 houses?

[03:23:28] I would make the assumption that when we talk about housing, this type of housing, then many of the same regulations that fall under health and safety, under DSS, would fall under this, too. So you literally can't have 20 people without violating a zoning law or zoning ordinance.

[03:23:50] So I understand what you're saying, but I also think that... Unless you had 10 apartments on that farm. Well, then they're not all in one structure then at that point. They could be. They could be. You could have ten individual apartments over the barn.

[03:24:09] You could have ten separate living arrangements. There's seasonal farm dormitories that are different than tenant housing. Right, exactly. So there's different requirements. That's all I'm saying. We need to make sure that we distinguish between all of that. We'll definitely be prepared to speak to all of that at the next.

[03:24:25] I also think that when we have these discussions, we need to, Because we're not just talking about equine. We're talking about all the way across the board. So we also need to talk about what is the multiplying effect. Because if you get enough houses, we can't assume that there won't be children there.

[03:24:41] We can't assume that there won't be an addition to the schools and that type of thing, which is fine. It's not an issue. But let's make sure we consider all these things when we're having these discussions. Because we can often think about these things in a silo and not think about Western Loudoun County is huge.

[03:24:57] So if you start putting, you know, whatever we're calling these on different plots of land, you could build a whole development two at a time and not realize it and not maybe have the cap facilities to meet those needs. So let's be intentional.

[03:25:15] I'm not saying not do it. Let's be intentional of how we do it. I just had a follow-up to that. So just in the spirit of what I said, it was definitely intended for the ag users, end users, the facilities, right, and not from any sort of site of development perspective.

[03:25:32] However, I get, I understand your point. I think the one thing that would buffer that, and of course everyone's going to try to find and play games, but if you build 17 houses on a certain amount of land and then, you know, but you can't subdivide it. So then what are you doing? And they're just going to enter lease agreements and then, you know, so it does get complex and I can understand it's a valid point and you need to address it somehow, some way.

[03:25:54] And that is within zoning. And I just wanted to make sure that my point was clarified, that I was trying to be creative in how do we find solutions for this conversation, not necessarily the development. Yeah, I just wanted to say thank you. Great conversation about all this. We do have a lot of different types of dwelling units that I think would be valuable to bring back to you guys and show you.

[03:26:15] We have accessory dwellings that can be in a principal use, whether it's a dwelling or another structure. That was my point. I think what you're probably going to do is come back. Yeah, we're going to have that.

[03:26:34] I'm sorry. I thought it was on. Turn it off. What I would offer is there are options, but I'm not sure those options currently work for your concerns. So then you see the difference between an accessory dwelling, a caretaker's residence, a tenant dwelling, and you say, all right, but on my farm that doesn't work and I still have this need.

[03:26:58] Okay, then what about this doesn't work? and we can dive into that yeah yeah thank you thank you okay brian you anything else that we need to address are we good next okay let's move on to the next one oh um so chair turner anything you wanted i didn't i didn't see your hand are you good okay okay next one is outdoor or major recreation parking issues yeah and going beyond the parking issues just the standards for the

[03:27:32] outdoor major recreation use and last but not least should this should this use use category be expanded um you know mr ellis had had recommended uh you know looking at the country club use which had more specific uh use standards uh obviously uh you know athletic fields are different than the theme parks you know should we should we be drawing a distinction between those types of uses i have a an observation i went up to lovett'sville and looked at the new park up there

[03:28:08] and it looks like i'm in ashburn there's an acre acres and acres of blacktop parking spaces with beautiful lines and islands and there's no one there and it's it's it's a standard i think that makes sense for eastern loudon with very heavy uses but for a western loudon park in a rural area it's it just seems i think the parks folks need to reconsider what they put in western loudon versus eastern loudon in terms of how it's going to be used and now i'm on the fsm board as well and

[03:28:42] gravel is actually considered an impervious surface so we talk about gravel a lot but but gravel is more appropriate even though it's impervious it's water sheets off pavement a lot easier than it sheets off of gravel and you need a huge stormwater system in a paved parking lot.

[03:29:05] So I think we need to -- there really are differences, whether you call it pervious or impervious. Water acts differently on gravel than it does on pavement. Can I ask your question, do you mind if I ask your question because I may have misunderstood what you just said and I just want to clarify if I didn't hear that correctly.

[03:29:22] Did you say that people use parks differently in Western Loudoun County versus Eastern Loudoun County? Yeah. Can you help me understand that? Well, let's look at Lovettsville, okay, the new park up there. There's a huge parking lot, and at times I was there, there were maybe three cars.

[03:29:42] There was probably someone at the dog park. There are a bunch of athletic fields, but we don't have, you know, it's not Ashburn. It's not Bramble. So you're not saying the use is different, you're saying the number of people, because the density of people who are in Western Northern County is much smaller.

[03:29:59] There's not a bunch of kids in the school here. Okay, I thought you, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you. Chair Turner has a question. Thank you, Madam Vice Chair. I'm a layman, I live in Ashburn, and I'm not a rural resident.

[03:30:18] I'm trying really hard to figure out why we would ever want an impervious parking lot in western Loudoun County. I mean, I rode the C&O Canal Trail with my hybrid bike, which is basically an on-road bike, and it was on a pervious composite surface, and I rode it 10 miles, and I was fine.

[03:30:43] I had no problems at all. I just really struggle to figure out why we would never want an impervious surface in Western Lowne for a parking lot. Yeah, this is one of my points as well, and it relates to flooding risks as well.

[03:31:00] It's one of the things related to flooding risks. I don't know how many of you are aware, but the maximum flow rate in a 100-year flood on Catoctin Creek going into Percival has doubled in the last couple of decades.

[03:31:17] So we have a lot more runoff coming from development in rural areas, and a lot of that has to do with impervious surfaces, but that can -- which includes turf grass as well as paved surfaces, but I totally agree with what Supervisor Turner said about that.

[03:31:43] Sorry. The current requirement is 60 off-street parking spaces per outdoor playing field, my understanding that's a park and rec requirement um so yeah but i i guess i would would say you know we're talking about parks but remember as far as outdoor recreation goes that would be those would be private these are private facilities not not county run parks okay well i do want to there is a cricket field in my um district that's private and they did say they needed to do 60 spaces yeah i believe 120 for two yeah so i think we do need to talk about that because it's very intense

[03:32:21] and um the uh the group that is running this these private cricket fields they they they can't they don't i mean six 120s you know not something they want to do and they want to do as as chair turner said you know grass-like make it more pervious so let's discuss about that the amount of how many people do they tend to have there for their two fields not i mean they carpool they so so you're you're way over parking over parked um and and if they needed something temporarily there's probably

[03:32:57] some field that they could park in and start versus permanent okay casey yes sorry oh and for for a private field you know why why would the assumption is we would know what they need when they would probably know best what they need and I would make the point that if I were going to build something for private use I wouldn't under park myself because I'm only shooting myself in the foot. And so and also it would be my choice whether to make it pervious or impervious based on what I view as a reasonable level of maintenance that I would be willing to put into

[03:33:34] my own parking lot. So there could be some some area there for some leniencies or some leeway versus a county-ran facility, which may have a standard and need to be maintained in a certain level for public safety. So, you know, I think it's an apple and an orange when it comes to that, and I think the private individuals versus the county facilities definitely could be viewed as different when it comes to parking.

[03:33:55] Can I ask one quick question? Sure. Is the problem that you don't want on-street parking? So if that's the point, then can't you just write in the regulation, no on-street parking? Parking has to be within the facility, and then they can decide how many they need for how many fields and the people that they're going to be there?

[03:34:15] Well, the issue is more the recreation outdoor major category is basically includes a wide range of uses. So the question is, do we do we want to separate some of these uses, particularly athletic fields?

[03:34:37] Right now, sports stadiums, arenas, sports fields are considered outdoor recreation or major recreation. You know, theme parks are too, although those are specifically not permitted in the rural area. But fairgrounds, golf courses, golf driving ranges, country clubs are all covered by that definition.

[03:35:01] You know, would it be, would it be, I guess would it clarify things if we were to separate athletic fields and actually, you know, utilize some standard, national standards for parking requirements and things like that for that, for those specific uses to make sure that we aren't getting, you know, ridiculous requirements for the cricket fields and things like that.

[03:35:26] I think that might, John, I know you spoke about that one. Yeah, I mean, my main concern with that particular category of, what is it, outdoor major uses is that it was extremely broad, and so it's mostly a matter of just being confusing, I think, to the user of the ordinance that you have to, you know, for most of the uses, you go to the specific definition of what you're doing, and you find out what the standards are.

[03:35:51] For this one, it just adds another layer, and I think, to me, it seemed like it would be easier for the user of the ordinance of the things that were subsumed within that broad category were just pulled out and addressed separately. Okay, any other comments on separating? Mr. Miller and Robin Eve?

[03:36:11] I think, yeah, Robin Eve, sorry. I'm just looking at the chart now, it looks like the same amount of parking is required in each of the different policy areas, and which, going back to other comments, doesn't seem to be necessarily sensible, where you have a much greater density of use in the urban and suburban policy areas and maybe in some parts of the transition policy area but in the rural policy area you know typically you're not going to have that intensive use i'm going to counter that with this while there may be a whole lot

[03:36:46] fewer people live in lovetsville than live in ashburn a little league baseball game is 18 kids whether it's in Lovitzville or Ashburn so the field the people using the field at the same time while there might be only 2,500 people in Lovitzville there's still 18 kids on the baseball field with their parents same number of kids on the baseball field in Ashburn with their parents and whoever goes to see them so it might not be as used as frequently but when it is used for a game a baseball field is used for a game it's the same number of people in Lovitzville as it is I also want you guys to be really careful right now, and this is why.

[03:37:25] The three supervisors sitting right here all the time rail about the fact that we need the same kind of number of facilities in Western Loudoun County, and we need to have equal cap use in Western Loudoun County and that type of thing. And with the pushback we get from our colleagues, which is not invalid, is that you all don't have the – Western Loudoun County didn't have the density.

[03:37:47] So we want to be real careful if we're sitting here saying what Western Loudoun County doesn't need because you don't have the density, because now you're playing right into the hands of somebody that says, we need less and less in Loudoun County because we don't have the density. All the three of us do is talk about that issue.

[03:38:03] So be really careful before you start saying we don't need this or this and this because the density is not there. I'm going to say one thing to that is that I think the facilities in Western Loudoun need to be more sensitive to the area uh, to the, to the, to the, to historic nature, they, they shouldn't look like they've been here. We're not, we're not, we're not disagreeing on design standards of what the facilities are, but, but, but we, but we don't want to say that, that we don't want to have it equally parked because there's not enough people out there and things like that, because the goal is that, that, that you're building this facilities, not just for the people that live around there,

[03:38:41] but people in Eastern Loudoun County will use Western Loudoun County facilities and vice versa. the goal is that we're one county and no matter where it's built it's going to be evenly used by everyone in the county it will have the of course you want to match the character and the historic structures and all that but let's just be really careful before we start short-sighting western loudon county because of the lack of density i have no problem with that as long as the sensitivity to the environment is really important so we're talking about not necessarily private but commercial right we're not talking about parks and recs but if we're talking about if somebody is

[03:39:18] going to build something whether or not it's for their private use or they're going to be hosting these events it's specific to say cricket or softball or baseball or football right so you know how many players you're going to have for each of those activities and you know that there's especially when there's kids there's going to probably be two parents with all of those participants can't you have a rough estimate of how many vehicles you're probably going to need

[03:39:49] based on that activity and structure it that way maybe i'm i think i think the the standard is the parks and rec standard from my understanding am i correct yeah so it is it is more though but how do they get to that standard because it may be overkill good question yeah good question casey i can again hit back on uh maybe differentiating versus public first private and also the different intensity of uses but as a long-term resident of western louden county a brother that has five children multiple friends where we could probably

[03:40:24] filled i don't know how many teams but dozens of teams uh we are short fields and areas to to facilitate recreational activities for our youth and other leagues in western louden county and whether the design standards and all that can be spoke about and make them within the character of in nature of western loudon but that we we are short fields this is a big issue it's a topic amongst all of my my friends colleagues uh residents um business owners of all kinds and so uh the field issue is valid and and is a is a great point to make sure is focused on absolutely

[03:41:02] and we don't want to deter fields because they can't do 120 parking spaces you know so we are very short point well point well taken chair turner uh thank you very much um i'm listening to this conversation and i could be completely wrong here so if i am just say so it seems to me that right now our parking standard is if you have this type of facility then you need this many parking spots and it seems to me the variation between eastern loudon and western loudon is not necessarily the type of facilities facilities to commissioner miller's point a little

[03:41:40] League game is a little league game. The question with a lot of facilities out in the West is, do we have a metric for that type of facility? And can we apply a standardized metric of over X period of days or weeks, then the average number of vehicles that attend those facilities in the West is this. So that now it isn't just saying this is a similar facility, it's saying This is a similar facility, but the duration of use of that facility and the maximum population that uses that facility is substantially lower over a period of time in the West than it is in the East.

[03:42:20] And that would drive down, it would seem to me, the parking ratios. Well, and I maybe just clarify what I was trying to point out by pointing out the similarity is the eight per thousand square feet, regardless of the type of facility also.

[03:42:38] So that seems irrational because a football field with 50 players on a team requires more than a tennis court that has, you know, four people on a court at the most. So, you know, I just think that there's a better way to approach this and fine-tune it based on use.

[03:42:58] I had one question for staff that I hope isn't too much of an interest, and that is, are county public parks subject to the zoning ordinance and to what extent? Because right now there are no use specific standards for them. And then I just wanted to return to Mr. Lovegrove's point about the Lovettsville Park in particular, which I know is extremely popular.

[03:43:22] with the citizens of Levittsville and the people around it. And it's a great facility from a lot of perspectives. But I've also heard a lot of negative comments about it. And the primary issue is that it's located on a high point with a lot of lights that are lit up at night.

[03:43:38] And you can see it from everywhere on the Catoctin Ridge and everywhere on the Short Hill Mountain. And so the concerns are not necessarily with the parking or anything like that, but with the the impact it has on on the whole valley there between the catocton ridge and short hill mountain to go back to staff's question do you think we should break up the recreation outdoor into categories like sports fields stadium arena complex you know into different categories versus having it in one broad category so any any thoughts on

[03:44:17] that i would i'm generally in favor of broader categories keeping cricket and theme park that's a little too broad i i agree yeah any other thoughts there can be three categories instead of one yeah any other comments on that i have a question is paintball included in this as well because because we have paintball yeah we have two paintball yes that would count as outdoor recreation. Okay. Yeah. I mean, if you have three levels of equine, you could certainly have three

[03:44:54] or more tiers of outdoor rec, and you're not going to be destroying the countryside. I think it might be an easy way to look at it. Any other thoughts on this topic? Oh, Brian. We have three minutes. Yeah. Brian. I didn't have anything else. No. Can I just briefly, to go back to supervisor turner's comment the fsm already allows pervious services for agricultural uses and rural economy uses and also gravel grasscrete so that's already allowed it's just if someone

[03:45:31] chooses to do it i don't think that was this question with respect i don't think the question was was it allowed i think the question what is was why would anything but that be allowed that's what i heard this question is yeah do you have any direction on that front i i'm just saying that i believe that was that was his point it specifies uh agricultural or rural economy uses yeah but is outdoor rec considered a rural economy use no so that i think he was in referencing to

[03:46:07] the outdoor rec and the parking and all of that that that john's talking about so there's nothing in there and I think in a lot of times those parking lots become pavement and if we can have the option or encourage in the west to not have it be pavement that's better and certainly if there's a park that has equestrian parking in it we do not want pavement but for all all uses countywide the FSM encourages pervious and allows it but but it also deaf defines gravel as impervious so it It kind of contradicts itself.

[03:46:47] It needs to be fixed. That state is declared the gravel is an impervious surface. So we have to align with that. Just so you know, for equine uses, pavement is dangerous. Horses slip and fall and people get hurt on pavement.

[03:47:05] So the park in Purcellville that has the equestrian trail, very dangerous to put a horse on pavement. just one yeah oh sorry but by no means am i promoting pavement in any way but off with your head but again if someone has a private facility and they elect to pave a portion and not pave a portion i don't know how restrictive and if there's already flexibility i don't know what that really is i mean limiting it of course is great but that was the choice of the property

[03:47:44] owner and the facility that runs it. I think the question would be, and I think you and I disagree, 99 out of 100, I think the question would be, and I don't know the answer to this, what does the water runoff look like if it's an impervious versus a non-pervious surface, and is there any environmental impacts?

[03:48:05] That would be my only question, and again, I don't know the answer, but if there's environmental impacts, then I think, especially for this part of the county, I would take that into consideration. think that's a valid point and if they were to pave i think being subject to uh stormwater management or any other provisions that would make it environmentally conscious or uh comply with all of the chesapeake bay act would be something that could be installed because it's a county adopted thing but again it leaves the choice of the property owner to bear that expense completely agree so we don't we agree okay maintenance versus having to put all that all Yeah, do they spend the money on maintenance later or where are they?

[03:48:44] The problem is that water that runs into a stream is not recharging the water table in Loudoun County. That water is lost to Loudoun County. So if we want to talk about recharging the aquifer in Loudoun County, that stuff that's running off of even gravel but certainly off of parking lots doesn't stay here.

[03:49:03] It goes to the Chesapeake Bay. So we have a water problem in Loudoun County right now. one last thing i wanted to say uh we did hear about equestrian campgrounds earlier uh and and what i can say is you know you know in looking at it we believe that you can currently do that but but staff will go back and and take a look at some language that will make sure that it's clear and clarified in the ordinance that that's an option so madam vice chair yeah go ahead um thank you I think what I envisioned is I would like something in the ordinance to basically say,

[03:49:41] if you're in Western Loudoun, we encourage pervious surface parking. And I understand John's point that gravel is considered impervious. We need to clarify that because I know that there are composite, not gravel, there are composite aggregate-type surfaces that you can put down that are pervious and that facilitate parking uses.

[03:50:04] And I would like to see the ordinance encourage those wherever possible and have language in the ordinance that says we encourage wherever possible pervious parking in Western Loudoun and then make exceptions for paved parking if we want to do that.

[03:50:19] I'm not quite sure how to do that, but I would like the default position in Western Loudoun to be pervious, true pervious surface, whenever that's determined to be. We can definitely look at language to do that. okay so we're done with this topic and um can i just ask a quick question about the camping okay we're going to move so we're going to do a 20 minute end um which we can add other things because i did want to talk about pre-canopy real quick as well um so we're going to do we're not going to do a break if that's okay with everybody we're just going to do a wrap-up and a last 20

[03:50:57] minute so are there any outstanding issues one is the campground let's start with the campground and um and then we'll go into a second if anyone needs to go um use the facilities you can take one of our key fobs and get back there and if you need if you need anything that's out you can also get back there yeah any supervisor or planning commissioner has one if you need to just take a quick break yourself just letting you all know that um yeah so i know that that there's mention of the possible new state park and wanting camping in that because it's a such a large parcel but

[03:51:32] Judy, if I'm not mistaken, you said that, like, the state parks and stuff, we don't have anything to do with zoning for them. We do not, no. So they do their own thing. So whether or not Loudoun County's having camping, that would be a private facility doing it as a business, not something that's on a state park.

[03:51:51] Yes, that's right. Okay, thank you. Okay, awesome. I had brought up a new topic about permitting food service. That's right. if we can put that on the list too thank you we can if everybody has the appetite we can we can talk about it tonight but but remember that this that this it does session number six is specifically dedicated to food service maybe if you want to talk about that for our thoughts in that session when we get to that so we can hear from the equine folks on it at least opinions yeah

[03:52:28] Yeah. So, I mean, basically what I said in my statement earlier is that, you know, when, whether you're a large facility or a small facility, and we already talked about equestrian events, they can go all day. And so part of the business model, you've got to feed people that are coming to your events.

[03:52:45] And so, again, we were looking at some options of, you know, and again, these facilities don't necessarily have kitchens and or catering, you know, establishments in there. So just being able to permit commercially packaged snacks, permit prepackaged food, facilities with catering kitchens allow them to warm and reheat.

[03:53:06] Remember, we talked about the hamburgers and hot dogs and all that and permit food for the public or a limited menu if it's not from scratch. So again, it's just about giving facilities the the opportunity to provide food because they need to.

[03:53:22] It's part of the business model. excellent any other food service i'm not a food service expert but i know that there's there's additional margin in food sales and so to make facilities maybe meet margins and and maybe their food sales during that event squeaks out that necessary uh additional income or revenue to to drive the event forward or advance it in a way i think that's also an important thing to take into consideration here when considering this matter any other issues that we didn't cover one thing i

[03:53:59] I wanted to bring up is what John Ellis brought up is preserving trees and tree canopy. I don't know if we can, John, do you want to speak to that? Thank you. So I'm hoping I'm reading the ordinance properly on this, but if I'm not, I'm happy to be corrected. But as I read section 7.03 of the ordinance relating to trees and tree canopies, my understanding of the table that describes the canopy requirements is that it only applies to developments in the suburban, urban, and transition districts

[03:54:37] and doesn't apply to rural districts. So my general point then was that if we think trees are important in some districts, we should think they're important in rural districts as well. And so I would like to see similar provisions applied to outdoor recreation and other types of developments in Western Loudoun.

[03:54:58] The other point I made was that the comprehensive plan in chapter three calls for action steps for the submittal of a tree cover inventory as part of development applications to evaluate existing tree cover and identify areas worthy of preservation.

[03:55:16] That policy is currently not implemented in the zoning ordinance. So I would like to see requirement for tree cover inventory for at least outdoor recreation uses. And then that would complement the other section I was referring to, which requires, depending on the property or the area, different levels of tree canopy and that kind of stuff.

[03:55:43] Thank you. I think one reason -- first of all, I agree with you. I think one reason that it hasn't applied to Western Lyman County is a lot of those ordinances for tree canopy area are regional, And a lot of them are borrowed, not all, but a lot of them are borrowed from the Council of Governments, from COG.

[03:56:00] So it's for, they have, they take into account Maryland, D.C., Virginia, and most of those areas are urban areas or suburban areas. So, but that doesn't mean that something can't be added for Loudoun County, but that's where those numbers come from. Kind of note, because I'm on COG, and we just got the tree canopy update, truthfully.

[03:56:18] And by the way, we weren't doing too well, even in, yeah, we weren't. Caleb is joking now it's time to leave it's time to go any other issues that I have one I'm not sure it's appropriate here but the chair Randall maybe I should check with you first the water water is a huge issue for the equine industry yes for the hay the hay harvest this year was was obviously a big issue the wells are being are running dry you know putting

[03:56:57] some land in in putting some land aside for water preservation is something we really should address the the geography of Loudoun County is a very difficult geography and I learned a lot about it being on the FSM committee but it's a fractured rock zone and once you get below a certain layer there's no more water so we've got a very small layer of water that everyone is drawing from and i think that especially for the equine industry water is so important fresh water and horses drink a lot of

[03:57:31] water for every human industry for every industry so so i as far as i don't know if it's a zoning question or if it's something we should be considering but the fsm does have requirements for water use so that to me makes that a legitimate zoning question because since it's part of the zoning ordinance so i just wanted to mention that what do you think ryan i mean i could just add in for perspective um and this goes into one of the issues we'll dive into later on with this um but

[03:58:07] just to kind of add into that or add some validity if you would the one of the purposes and intents of the mountainside overlay district was to protect areas that were identified by usgs as significant water recharge areas for western loudon so not that that fixes the issue we definitely have water issues but that's an example of one of the policies that in part was specifically to at least help or recognize that so yes there are there are ways to do that

[03:58:39] Casey? Thank you, Ryan. I just want to speak into tree canopy. I don't know if it is or isn't the case, but it would seem to me that Western Loudoun County would have a different ratio of tree canopy coverage than Eastern Loudoun County, which may be a point is why there's maybe more regulation to the amount of canopy coverage or anything that would be required there, right? Since there lacks so many trees, the current inventory in Western Loudoun County seems to be abundant, but may still be inadequate i don't know i'm not a tree expert and i'm also not promoting the planting of trees i'm just saying i could see why the two areas might require different types

[03:59:17] of approaches when addressing the canopy issue and also since i'm not expert in trees is there a specific tree that is specifically better for equine than other trees because that would need to be factored in if you are going to consider it i don't know if it's about outdoor rec then then i just mixed the two up my apologies i had two thoughts morvin had a problem with water at some point isn't that correct and it was a regulation issue if i recollect yeah because

[03:59:54] of the overlay um so yeah my well was drying up and i needed to go and i needed to have a just a reserve well one that i could go and it took me a lot of time and a lot a lot of years going through through with the county and finally because Loudon Therapeutic Riding left our property, we were granted the ability to use their well.

[04:00:17] But if they hadn't left our property then Loudon Therapeutic Riding and Morphin Park would have been in dire need. Okay. Was it the state that stopped you or the county? County. Interesting. So obviously that's something, I'd be, we don't have to talk about it now.

[04:00:36] The only other thing I had in this kind of wrap up is, I know we talked about a lot of things and this is really directed at staff. We talked a lot about things. It seemed like we came to consensus with a lot of things. I don't think we need to go back over it right now, but it might be helpful if there was an email or some sort of recap bullet point of what you as staff believe was kind of the consensus so that and send it to those members of this committee that are sitting here, I think it would be very helpful for us so that make sure we don't, we have everything kind of wrapped in there.

[04:01:06] could do that we were planning on kind of summing it up at the end before we leave okay then and beginning the next staff report okay capturing it if that would work whatever you guys think is best yes you'll if you would give me a few minutes to to put all that together okay okay meanwhile i think john wants to thank you yeah i just wanted to return to what casey said and just say that um The actual provisions for tree canopy are pretty flexible and, for example, in calculating tree canopy, you take into account whether it's a field, you know, or something else

[04:01:46] and areas that are covered with net fields and natural areas and things like that are excluded from the calculation. So I think the idea there is to preserve existing trees that, you know, that might be destroyed by development, but not to require additional tree canopy any place.

[04:02:06] And I'd like to speak to water briefly. Just, you know, growing up and living in West London County and also watching how the municipalities out there work, I mean, it seems like ag uses in general or just anybody really that owns property outside of the town or any of the towns are facing the competition of, you know, their water rights first, their water rights being acquired by the local municipalities trying to meet their own demands so it is a real issue and something that needs to be addressed however i don't know if that could even come close to being addressed at this meeting but water would

[04:02:42] be a concern the animals do need water the towns do need water where does that blend and what does that balance i have no idea thank you casey yeah it is a bigger issue than the topics tonight so okay so with that well um chair turner do you have anything you wanted to to add or um a question um is staff kind of do we need time for staff to come up with a summary of the evening or have they already do they already have that yeah that's what we're stalling for give me a couple minutes i came to you for a stall stall mike tell us the story about the war

[04:03:24] well first of all thank you all very much i think this is really productive tonight if you have any comments about format that we use tonight the general layout and the process that we went through that would be really helpful staff did a fantastic job in sort of envisioning how we were going to do this and as always i'm i'm deeply appreciative we all are i'm speaking on behalf of p like for the outstanding work they've done here i thank you all for your time and i think the conversation was really rich it had a lot of really good detail in it and i think

[04:04:00] that will help staff a lot and i specifically want to call out uh vice chair of the crowing did a great job down here with the committee i really do appreciate that that was really fantastic and uh that's a that's a tough one to kind of weigh it into you know as your first one and i think you did a great job so thank you all very much i really do appreciate it if you have any comments about the form that we use please feel free to provide that mike we need we need about two more minutes mike so go ahead and praise other people also yeah i can tell five stories i'd do

[04:04:33] that for a couple hours mr hemistry for your work with the uh drought um uh 500 for the agriculture toward toward that that's been a i think through it with 60 uh applicants to date and that's been great thank you i don't think i'm stalling for time but i do want to make note of something i think the the people that spoke the least were the four supervisors and it goes to what i i say

[04:05:10] all the time which is the the nine supervisors who sit here we are you know committed public servants and we're smart people but we don't know everything and and we have all these industry experts are experts in many ways this is one of the most interesting conversations I've been part of and I've learned a lot I'm still not going camping ever well I'm from Colorado and I can I can outright you any day of the week I am from I am from Colorado let me tell you where our next

[04:05:41] meeting's gonna be but yeah I do I yeah we can listen you will be very surprised I'm western but um but i have learned so much in this conversation and i i think this i think this ideal of having um industry experts and stakeholders really works well and and and it teaches us a lot so thank thank all of you thank you very much yeah so right okay staff wrap up just to give you the

[04:06:16] summary all right just going down the five issues uh the first one regarding consistency we are going to look at hours of operation uh looking at public facing uh uses 6 a.m to midnight the event portion 4 a.m to midnight uh actually no oh i'm for the i'm sorry that's the public facing and the event portion are the same no hours of operation for the business portion

[04:06:49] For Mr. Ellis' handout regarding consistency issues, we are going to research that and look at rectifying those issues. For the second issue regarding context, we're going to look at 60-foot setbacks to match a standard ag building.

[04:07:13] We are going to remove the maximums for equine ag buildings. We are going to eliminate buffering requirements for ag uses. We are going to look at field parking for spillover for small-scale equine operations and look to make a distinction for event facilities that may need additional field parking.

[04:07:37] For issue three, we are going to look at minimum acreage requirement for polo and keep it as part of the equestrian uses. We're going to explore clarifying in the ordinance that fox chasing is a recognized use, recognizing private kennels um as as a specific uh separate use uh number four uh we are going to remove egg equine uses from the egg support uses and creating a new list of uh uses uh that that

[04:08:12] would basically wrap all of the previous issues that i talked about into into one category if possible and then number five we are going to separate out separate out athletic fields and any other major recreation uses that may may not be compatible with the current current definition as well as look at encouraging pervious surface material in western louden me and jason worked

[04:08:47] that out hours ago. There's some language about owner to leasee. Oh, yes. One more thing, Brian? Yep. The changing owner-occupant to owner leasee in the ordinance as well. The only thing that might, and it's just a small thing, but for the fox chasing, they could be either a livery or a private stable because if there may be a time when that stable is housing more than their own, right horses so I don't want to make them only be able to be a private they

[04:09:24] should be either one but they're a recognized group that make sense yes yes work for you can I just have one clarification when you talked about field parking you said small and medium I would also add large it's just the ability to thank you and also did you talk about the outdoor parking or the parking for outdoor rec Brian you know that we talked about like yes I would I would consider that and if we're going to pull out the athletic fields, but yes, we will also include parking in that.

[04:10:04] Okay, and then also caretaker's quarters or grooming quarters, groom's quarters. Have we decided on that or is that going to be part of the future discussion as well?

[04:10:19] That was part of the future discussion. With housing? Yes. That's what I heard is we'll bring it back. And just to clarify, we are also going to review the lighting standards to maybe look at a potential rural standard that might be more appropriate.

[04:10:37] That would be great. Yeah, that sounds great. And is trees on your list? But the question is, is it a we're going to visit it, circle back to it later thing? Yeah.

[04:10:53] If we don't feel like we have enough direction, we will bring it back at a future date, yes. one thing i'm going to mention about trees too is uh i believe our requirements are pursuant of 15.2961 that's what authorizes us to have tree ordinance and so there may be some limits as to what we are actually authorized and able to do under the state code yes we'll we'll take a look at that i think we are done i have one more thing madam sure chair turner if all of you want me to grant these wishes you need to bring me the broomstick of the witch of the west

[04:11:32] Oh, you have a powerful Oz. Oh, great and powerful Oz. I love it. Where's this smoke? I love it. I'll bring him one of the flying monkeys. Either way, it's going to slowly drive. I prefer the monkey. Oh, he'll go home. I'm sure he'll hear about that.

[04:11:48] Exactly. All right. So seeing no other business before us tonight, I call this Transportation and Land Use Committee. Special meeting adjourned. Thank you. Yay. First one. I got kids.

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