Coraggio Consulting
Loudoun County School Board, Student Services Committee Meeting, Thursday, November 7, 2024

Date: Thursday, November 7, 2024
Place: Loudoun County Public Schools / School Board meeting (see BoardDocs / LCPS-TV)
Length: 2h 30m (video)
Official meeting video (Vimeo / LCPS-TV): https://player.vimeo.com/video/1027672206?rel=0
BoardDocs (School Board): https://go.boarddocs.com/vsba/loudoun/Board.nsf/Public

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-21. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:00:01] all right good evening everyone and welcome to the November 7th meeting of the Student Services Committee I am the chair of the committee and Donahue with me as Miss Melinda Mansfield and Miss Carrie LaBelle our other committee members and joined also by many staff order check item number two on our oh right reminder this meeting is being audio recorded not video recorded not being live-streamed but the recording will be available in the future for anyone who wants to listen to it publicly through the LCPS website item

[00:00:41] number two on our agenda is public comment do we have any public comment speakers today thank you as no one has signed up we will dispense with item number two and move on to item number three on our agenda for this evening which is approval of minutes from the October 10th work session for the Student Services Committee and minutes from the October 17th monthly meeting of the Student Services Committee fellow committee members have you had an opportunity to review the draft minutes from those meetings and or do you need

[00:01:19] some time now do you have any questions concerns or requests for edits all right in that case I will entertain a motion to approve minutes miss LaBelle I move we approve the minutes of the October 10th 2024 work session in the October 17th 20 24 minutes as well thank you miss LaBelle mr. Allen since you're here

[00:01:53] are we allowed to approve both in the same motion or do we have to thank you mr. Allen so the motion has been properly moved by mr. Bell is there a second I second thank you Ms. Mansfield the motion has been properly moved and seconded all those in favor please say aye that motion passes unanimously thank you and we will move on to item number four our information items beginning with 4.01 revisions for policy 8155 school assignment mr. Dolson good

[00:02:33] evening I'm back no I I appreciate the opportunity once again to speak with you all about some of the changes that we are suggesting that you all consider for policy 8155 school assignment what I'd like to do is go through our presentation and start off with just some high-level proposed revisions and then we'll go into the red line policy itself and we can go line by line over

[00:03:10] some of the more important pieces that we are suggesting as revisions excuse me so as you will see in the very beginning of policy 8155 we have added a section called the definition of over enrolled schools and that is for clarity we've also removed the opportunity to apply for special permission to a projected over enrolled school we have changed the term regional assignment to school reassignment throughout we've also adjusted the dates throughout policy

[00:03:48] 8155 to reflect option number one that we all had agreed to propose based on our last work session we've clarified relieving overcrowding and returning to regular school assignment providing over overcrowding is resolved that was one of the points of clarification we wanted to make and then we added language to section 3b to clarify that approval in middle school grades does not guarantee approval to attend the feeder high schools. We have also bulleted out the VHSL rules ramifications.

[00:04:26] We've removed the term school-based when referring to employees to include all LCPS employees the provision to apply for special permission early. We have made the provision for all school principals to allow children of LCPS employees to attend their respective schools.

[00:04:46] We've removed Section 4B to reflect an end date of April 30th, 2024. And we have added written confirmation and removed a letter of to clarify that emails may be accepted as correspondence from principals. So, specifically now in the red line version of Policy 8155.

[00:05:09] As stated, we now have Section A, which is definition of over-enrolled schools. We enumerate overall capacity, and we also enumerate the difference between elementary and secondary. Remember that elementary is determined by grade level, and secondary schools, middle and high schools, is by school building.

[00:05:32] In Section B, on Line 30, we added non-over-enrolled to clarify that students will not be permitted to apply for special permission to a school that is projected to be over enrolled. In section C of policy, lines 40 through 82, we changed regional assignment to school reassignment throughout the section and added clarifying language. In section D, which is lines 87 through 88, we added the phrase if that school

[00:06:07] is not projected to be over enrolled and added a letter B, lines 98 through 99, stating that applications to over-enrolled schools will not be accepted moving forward we removed 3b lines 126 through 139 and included fifth grade so the policy now reads k5 in line 121 to in in 3a to include

[00:06:40] fifth grade students we added language in um new 3b lines 141 through 146 to clarify approvals in middle schools do not guarantee permissions to attend feeder high schools and removed we were moved the word generally for clarity and specificity under letter f line 196 moving on to the vhsl vhsl section and ramifications of policy 8155 we bulleted out this section and

[00:07:16] removed adult student line 200 and lines 200 and 215 and added the following or the student is enrolling as a first-time ninth grader in accordance with VHSL rules the division superintendent or designee may transfer a student within the school division without affecting the student's VHSL eligibility by specifically granting a waiver of the VHSL transfer rule 28 a - 7 - 1 such waiver should not be considered for athletic and/or activity purposes moving right along

[00:07:55] More specifics, we adjusted our dates throughout to align with option one. That would be in early January for staff through April 30th and early February for LCPS families through April 30th.

[00:08:12] In section four, line 230, we removed school-based to include all LCPS employees and added or transferred at line 237 to allow employees who transfer schools the option to move their child to their new school.

[00:08:30] We removed lines 237 to 246 of Section 4 to reflect the revision to include all LCPS employees. We removed secondary and line 257 to include that provision to all principals.

[00:08:47] We removed Section 4B, lines 277 through 291 to reflect that special permission applications will not be accepted after April 30th. And we removed under-enrolled schools and over-enrolled school in lines 308 to 313.

[00:09:04] And then, as stated before, we added written confirmation in line 322 to clarify that emails will be accepted. What I would like to do as you consider some of these suggested revisions is to go over some other committee considerations and impacts for you all to consider.

[00:09:32] So moving our special permission dates up will impact school registration. The current timeline for school year 25-26 is bulleted out on this slide for you. February 3rd, our online registration would open.

[00:09:50] March 3rd, 2025, the school appointments would open. April 1st, 2025, special permission would open for LCPS families. Our proposed new timeline for school year 25-26 would be January 6th, 2025, our online registration would open.

[00:10:10] February 3rd, 2025, school appointments would then open. And February 3rd, 2025, the special permission process would open for LCPS families. We do want you to make the note that students must register at their zoned school of attendance within 30 days of applying for special permission.

[00:10:36] Moving right along, elementary schools defining school and grade level capacity. Current Regulation 8155 defines school and grade level capacity at 95%. That means 95% of school capacity for middle and high schools and then 95% of grade level capacity at the elementary.

[00:10:59] Challenges may arise in determining elementary school grade level capacities and projections earlier in the year for the next school year. That would have implications on budget and staffing. Earlier this week, I held three drop-in meetings virtually for all LCPS principals, and I walked them through this presentation and specifically got feedback on the slides you will be seeing next, because this process, as you probably have determined, is very multifaceted and elementary.

[00:11:37] It's a little more straightforward at the secondary, because like I said, you're dealing with building capacity instead of grade-level capacity, and Ms. Lehman has been a huge help in her office with myself and Ms. Carpenter and just us figuring it out and literally we go up and down the stairs all summer long because we're asking do you have space in this grade level at this school. So what I wanted you to see is our examples of three different scenarios. This first one is a first grade class at a regular elementary school. We have current K-3 class size at 25

[00:12:14] students per class. This school has three first grade classes that would equal 75 students which would equal the 100% capacity for that grade level. And what I've mapped out for you is considerations for the 95%, a 90% capacity, an 88% capacity, and an 85% capacity. And you will see the total number of students in that grade level if you walk across each of those different

[00:12:48] rows. So 95% would equal 71, 90% would equal 67, 88 would equal 66, and 85 would equal 63. And then you see the seats that are remaining in those grade levels, or those classes I should say, in first grade, and then you see the class size that would result. What I did glean from elementary principals is 5% is not a lot of space, not a lot of space left. So we had principals

[00:13:22] that shared they had three seats left in their grade level. They were filled by special permission and then they had four new families move into the neighborhood over the summer and those students were then regionally placed. The next example or scenario that I have for you is a fifth grade class, three classes. Our class size is 29 and so you see the percentages and the total number of

[00:13:56] students the seats remaining and then what would be the resulting class size in that example thank you chair donahue i'm wondering how many of our schools have only three fifth grade classes or three first grade classes not very many i i use that just as an example just because 25 times three was easy for me to do in my head i'm gonna be honest i was an english teacher not a math

[00:14:33] teacher i was a music major and not a math major so i totally understand that um so i am so like we have like seven first grade classes in some areas i'm sorry um 175 would be a capacity for a seven it's 25 per class and you can do the math on 95 of that so making some assumptions not in my head but that was a big assumption well you know for 75 it's uh 71 so for 150 it would be um 142

[00:15:09] so it's you know you can I was just thinking how many kids would be in that one class because like here I mean we would have you have three classes and you have four seats remaining for the elementary school then that's just really one seat per class maybe two absolutely yep right so that's why I was wondering if it changed like more but so I get that thank you absolutely and just as another point Mr. Dolson we're talking about numbers as we as we go into the school year so that that's the space left for anyone moving in throughout the course of the school year as well four seats. Could you remind me

[00:15:44] for Title I schools what's the amount of students that we can have there. Generally 23 and some of our Title I schools because there's also an additional factor called class size reduction which is a slightly different calculation but strongly correlated and the lowest we go there is 20 to 1 at I think Sully Elementary has it the government gives us that number so that's a 20 to 1 21 to 1 23 to 1 24 to 1 it varies so in some cases it's less than the title 1 number we go with whichever number is lower on some classes 20 is

[00:16:22] the correct so miss Mansfield you were ahead of the game as usual the next scenario is a title one school and what we what we constructed here is a fourth grade class of 23 students and the numbers that are reflected there obviously equal the 95 90 88 and 85 percent capacity so moving on to some

[00:16:58] proposed considerations for this committee the first is that the student services committee considers reducing the capacity percentages for schools and and grade levels. I will tell you that the resounding messaging from principals was they really liked the 90% threshold. They really appreciated that. Both elementary and secondary principals thought 90% was a good starting point. As I said, 95, there's just not a lot of wiggle room. And as you know, with Loudoun and its transiency, there is a lot of that that happens

[00:17:36] in all parts of our county and I think we saw it especially this year in our eastern the eastern part of our county the other consideration is is that the Student Services Committee recommends that some elementary schools be considered over enrolled and not open to accepting special permission applications regardless of current grade level capacities currently with the assistance of the Planning Office those two schools that we would suggest being considered for that would be Madison's Trust Elementary School and Moorfield Station Elementary School. I did speak with both Ms. Williams and Mr. Stewart, and they were in

[00:18:15] support of that suggestion. One nuance that you do need to consider is siblings and over-enrolled schools. Currently, as our suggested revisions are written, parents would not be able to apply to an over-enrolled school for said siblings to attend.

[00:18:43] So that's just a nuance and a consideration. And then last but not least, the last proposed consideration is that the Student Services Committee considers requiring families to provide specific reasons for applying for special permission that may be verified.

[00:19:03] I will tell you that my colleagues in my office and I were having a discussion in my office around two o'clock, And so your slide is going to be a little bit different. We actually removed, in this slide, what did we remove?

[00:19:18] We removed the family relocation piece, which I think is, yes, on your printed out copies, it may have family relocation. We have a separate form for that purpose, so we removed that, as it does not need to be considered by the committee.

[00:19:38] We did add requires documentation for child care. I believe that is something that we enumerated on this slide that is not reflected on your printed copy. And now we will open it up for questions.

[00:19:59] So you said siblings. We have a twin policy. So I'm wondering how that would play into it. And that's also contemplated in VA code.

[00:20:17] So would that be considered a sibling or would that be considered? I'm just asking because I do have twins. Would there be a scenario where the twins would not have been considered at the same time?

[00:20:34] We're thinking more like a younger sibling is coming along and the older sibling is already in the school, was accepted for special permission in an earlier year, and now the school has reached capacity, and now it's time for the kindergartner to enter, and there's no room for the kindergarten sibling.

[00:20:49] So there might be a thing where one twin has autism and one does not. Right, one's ahead of the other. Then, or one twin has, one twin has had bullying that has happened and the other one does not. And so you would, I could see that someone would be, I could see, I mean, part of policy is what could happen in a way, right, to look forward.

[00:21:17] But I could see that one twin would be bullied and would ask for special permission and then the parent would want the other, you know, maybe later the other twin to be. makes me wonder if that could happen whether they're twins or not so that's just a nuance that you'll have to consider in the wording I know but there's one that has a VA code that you have to consider not right at that the others be really specific of course I have other questions but I mean I won't

[00:21:53] I'll ask other people that have questions and then I'll move on thank you very much for the presentation and information mr. Dolson I do have a few questions going back to your slide number 10 the date that says school appointments open what does that mean I'm Muslim yes so parents can complete a portion of the registration online prior to making an appointment and bringing the rest of the documents to school and so that happens a month before the in-person appointments so the appointments is talking about the in

[00:22:32] person appointment that the school registrar makes with incoming families Okay. So I appreciate the conversation about how we define over-enrolled.

[00:22:48] I am curious, you only provided us with information and discussion for elementary school. So did you consider, discuss whether we, if we are going to consider changing the definition of over-enrolled, did you consider and discuss amongst yourselves and staff if we would, if you would encourage us to consider whether to change that definition for middle and high school as well and if so you know what was your thought process so what we did consider is that with how

[00:23:28] what the impact would be and currently if we went to 90% we would have give or take about 12 schools that would be considered over enrolled at 90% so that that is something that's how we considered it there is a little bit more flexibility at the secondary level but I will also remind you going back to what dr. Brewer said at the last meeting which is we're not just talking about the school building capacity we're talking about at a high school you're talking about drop drop-off pickup you're talking about transportation you're

[00:24:07] talking about the number of juniors and seniors that drive to school you're talking about the cafeteria one of the things that I really appreciated that Mr. Stewart said about his school, Madison's Trust, is it's not that they necessarily feel overcrowded until you try to put four elementary classes in the gym at one time, which is not safe for PE.

[00:24:30] So they cannot do that. The cafeteria at an elementary school is not as big as a high school. That's where they start to feel just the overcrowding. And I think that's, I appreciated that information because that's not something as a high school principal I had to necessarily consider 'cause we were able to divide our lunches and obviously we only probably had two PE classes going on in the main gym and the auxiliary gym.

[00:24:59] So a total of four but we had it split between two gyms. So those are some of the considerations that I don't think it's just a numbers game. I think it's looking at how our schools were built and they were not necessarily built for the number of students that are being served in them and that's because we have more students sometimes them that we considered thank you and can you remind me or confirm my memory when we are talking about the definition of over enrolled we are we are only looking at these are the numbers we're looking at we're not looking at the

[00:25:35] special ed numbers so remember you have to remember that that's a different staffing standard yes so we would be looking at those numbers but it's a very different staffing standards so those numbers are always going to be conflated when you consider a one to ten ratio versus a one to twenty three or one to twenty five ratio so if a parent applies for a special permission for their student and their student is a special ed student if the overall statistics of

[00:26:10] the school do not indicate general population does not meet our definition over enrolled but the special ed category does meet the definition of over capacity then we view that as over capacity because it's a hardship on the staffing it's a hardship on the on the case managers and I think miss miss Richardson we discussed that the last work session yes we did thank you mr.

[00:26:42] Dolson thank you mrs. Donahue for your question so as mr. Dolson has shared the The staffing standard for cross-categorical services is a ratio of 1 to 10. We calculate that as a building average first, right?

[00:26:58] And then we look at our division-wide averages. So if, based on your scenario, if the school was under capacity or had the ability to accept a student with a disability in cross-categorical services, we would have to look at the number of teachers that are currently assigned.

[00:27:18] We would then look at the distribution of students that are already being served there to see if it would still keep the building in the average of one to 10, one to 11. For elementary, we definitely don't wanna push them too high.

[00:27:35] Services and the structure of services are very different there. Like I do believe I've mentioned that for this year, we've staffed elementary schools at a ratio of one to 10, middle at a ratio of one to 11, high schools at a ratio of 1 to 12 because the service delivery and the just overall structure of instruction is different at secondary. We as a division have come to the consensus that no case manager or building average would go higher than 1 to 15. I do remind you for cross-categorical services at the

[00:28:10] state level you can have up to 1 to 24. We know that that's not the best instructional practice for our students with disabilities thank you so okay so I'm gonna push back a little bit so my thought was that if we move the time period up then we would be able to hire this appropriate staff so that that might not be an issue because there are high schools that might have 70% you

[00:28:46] know that are at capacity for special for a special education because they don't have the teachers but they are under capacity they are at 70 percent capacity normally so my hope was if we moved that time period you know then the then the principals would be able to hire the special education teachers is that not what we were contemplating here at all I mean that's kind of what I was hoping was going to help. So one of the conversations that Ms. Lehman and I were having

[00:29:22] prior to the meeting starting is staffing is the the golden ticket to what a principal how a principal can hire. So for example a principal can't hire for a a position that he or she is not staffed with. Does that make sense? Budget has to provide our schools with what their staffing is going to be and then if so let's say just use the number 10 if I have 10 teachers in my building right now and budget says oh because of the increased

[00:29:59] numbers you're gonna gain an extra 2.0 FTEs and that means I have to be on the search for two additional teachers that could be a special education teacher it could be a fifth grade teacher or a math teacher so it's all dependent on the numbers and that's why yes moving it up does expand the time frame that a principal would have to hire but it's also dependent on when that principal gets that number that they can hire for I would add something that it makes me think of is two things one of which especially special ed specific because

[00:30:38] of the timelines of when students are found eligible for special education during the course of the school year you know it would be now would be early in the year to even this is kind of when we're starting to see maybe some requests for assessment of students and things like that to see if they would qualify into a 65-day window, 65 working day.

[00:30:57] So usually spring is a time when students are being, new students are being identified for special education services. That would not coincide with an early January, February need for staffing. But additionally, if we're talking about special permission students, the policy, the way it is currently written, is that we're not allowed to expend additional money for special permission specifically.

[00:31:21] SO THAT WOULD MEAN IF WE APPROVE THE SPECIAL PERMISSION AND THEN WE STAFF BASED ON THE SPECIAL PERMISSION, THAT WOULD BE AGAINST THE WAY THE POLICY IS CURRENTLY WRITTEN. SO THAT WOULD BE ANOTHER AREA TO LOOK AT. SO I COULD TAKE THAT -- I COULD ASK TO GET THAT AMENDED? YEAH, THAT WOULD BE AN AREA TO LOOK AT BECAUSE THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN A LITTLE BIT OF A -- WHAT WOULD BE THE CONTRAINDICATIONS BESIDES?

[00:31:43] THAT'S ON LINE 332 ON PAGE 7 IS WHERE IT REFERENCES SPECIAL PERMISSION REQUEST FOR ALL STUDENTS if sufficient capacity becomes available without requiring additional staff or incurring additional cost.

[00:32:01] So in answer to your question, Ms. Mansfield, the contraindication to my mind, but there are more knowledgeable people here, would be this would be after the approval of the budget. So you would be adding positions that were not included in the superintendent's budget or the adopted budget. Except we would have flexible staffing.

[00:32:16] Yeah. That would be a source for this. So that would be something to look at in terms of maybe some historical data, in terms of what numbers you're looking at and I don't know that's a it's a great question it's also important to remember that when we're looking at school capacity for all students that are on special permission they're already included in that capacity count for next year so if a student with a disability is on special permission from Mill Run to Hillside as an example they're already

[00:32:55] included in Hillside's number we didn't move them back to Mill Run they're They're included in hillsides. So we're looking at them already being there. So there would possibly be more capacity if you lowered the percentage based on overall capacity.

[00:33:17] We still have to be thoughtful about case management and the obligations of workload for special educators with regards to paperwork, number of meetings, documentation. it feels different sounds different it looks different than what our general education teachers experience so again we would also want to so even if we did remove section starting at line 332 we'd also want to make sure that our schools have the physical space to accommodate additional special education

[00:33:52] staff I wanted if you would dr. Richardson clarify for me when you talk about students that are what we would call resource students are they restricted to the 1 to 10 and what about the ones that are like full-time special needs or special programs they're going to this school because of a special need

[00:34:28] that is not addressed at that school how does that all work into it certainly so our current staffing standard as a division for cross got a cross categorical or resource students so those are students whose impact of disability allows them to participate in the general education setting with some ebb and flow right between special education services that's a staffing ratio of one teacher to ten students for case management and direct instruction responsibilities our next staffing standard is our self-contained program

[00:35:04] so that's autism self-contained we have ED self-contained that's emotional disabilities that staffing ratio can go one to six I'm sorry one to eight with two BAs to support the classroom okay our highest level of restricted support are intensive programs and so that would be intensive services for students with with autism as well as those with emotional disabilities that's a staffing ratio of one teacher to no more than six students and for behavioral assistance

[00:35:40] we also staff our classrooms for students with multiple disabilities and those with intellectual disabilities at a ratio of one to eight so really this one additional staff and incurring additional cost is really only for special education students what else is it for do we know it could be for a grade level so say we over we over approve special permission for a grade level and that might cause Mrs. Lehman to have to complete the process to

[00:36:15] request a flexible staffing position for fourth grade that's possible so this does not just apply to students with disabilities so sorry I want to interject briefly because I I see that we have a guest and I don't know how long that guest is available to us so I know I still have several questions related to the policy proposal and I imagine my colleagues do as well but I wanted to check in on thank you thank you miss I I was just gonna interrupt and say ask if we could switch gears for a second so I'm on the screen is dr. Hahn from the

[00:36:54] Virginia High School League and he is here to answer your questions I think you have some specific questions in regards to the Virginia High School League rules, how it applies, and how we are implementing those rules in accordance with Policy 8155.

[00:37:12] Thank you, Mr. President. Good evening, Dr. Hahn. Thank you very much for joining us. Good evening. Can you hear me? Yes, we can. Okay. Thank you all very much for the invitation. I hope I can answer your questions for you.

[00:37:29] Thank you, Dr. Hahn, for coming. I appreciate it. I was probably the one who asked for you to go here. I have some questions for you. regarding um so the transfer rule i have looked at your policy at your uh handbook and there are a couple of things that i have questions about obviously i think we're the only are we the only district that does special permission here in virginia are there other districts there are

[00:38:02] other districts that do special permission um there are okay go ahead dr hon did you want to ask all of the questions at once or do you want me to go ahead and answer as you ask them sure if If you want to answer that, are we the only ones or are there others that do special permission?

[00:38:20] And how do they do that? No, there are other school divisions, and there are several school divisions, and some of them do have enrollment, what they call an open enrollment policy. There's not a lot. But then we also have several school divisions that have special programs, maybe an academy of some sort, an engineering program, you know, different things where they allow students to apply and move to those different programs as well. So there's some different versions of what you're doing. But if you're asking specifically just allow to open and go to

[00:38:56] another school, I believe there's only one other school division that I can think of right off hand that does that. And which division is that? The city of Richmond has a version of that because they have a school called Open High School and their students can leave their assigned school and apply to go to that school. Thank you. So something that has become an issue here is the requirement of 365 consecutive calendar days with thinking about this special permission

[00:39:33] policy. If a student is moving for something like bullying or something, there has been some thought that if it's not bad enough or something that we could not, that we would have to, it's automatically 365 days.

[00:39:56] And I also see in this new policy we're bringing together that it will be a hard 365 days. And my concern is that here in your policy handbook on page 80, it says a school board or school or division superintendent may transfer a student by name within the school division without affecting that student's eligibility by specifically granting a waiver of the transfer rule and they should be considered for the welfare of the student and or the school district so the

[00:40:32] question comes in when is that really true yes ma'am it is true for the for the school board to be able to do that in like an appeals of some sort and do you contemplate mental health issues or not? I think there's several reasons that you can do this. One certainly is for the safety and the well-being and the welfare of the student. If there's an issue that your school board or your superintendent feels where it really is in the best interest of student A to move them from

[00:41:10] school B to school C because of their health and their safety and their welfare, then yes, you know, the school board could ask for permission or they can provide that permission to make that student eligible when they move them. Yes. So we've been told that if we do something like that, there is a possibility that VHSL might call us on that and say that this was not because of a

[00:41:43] death in the family. It was not because of divorce or something like that. And that we would be subject to putting together a super team of some sort? This is a very touchy place to be.

[00:42:01] I think certainly anytime you're looking at the health and welfare of a student or you're looking at an academic program that is in the best interest of that student, I think those are all very legitimate reasons on why, you know, when you transfer students or get permission for them to transfer that you have the ability to make them eligible uh the the part that the vhsl would only ever question would be if we did end up and looking like loud has got county had 40 transfers

[00:42:37] this year and there's like 10 soccer players that went to this school and now there's five kids that played club soccer club club club lacrosse together all summer and now they this school i mean that is when we would you know say what's going on but but at the same time it's still not our final decision but we may question and say we're getting we have some concerns about this we've had concerns about this brought to our attention from from others and we just want to see but I mean with this policy

[00:43:13] as you can see the ultimate decision rests with your superintendent and with your school board Does that make sense? It is a very, I will tell you, it's a very slippery slope.

[00:43:31] And I've seen some other school divisions struggle with this one because they sort of okayed three or four or five transfers. And then all of a sudden, you know, now you've got school A over here that's not beating anybody in anything.

[00:43:53] And you've got school B, C, and D that is just, you know, beating people really badly. And you've got kids asking for transfers to go there. And it pretty much comes out to the fact that it is, some of those transfer requests are about athletics because none of those transfers should be for the athletic purpose.

[00:44:17] It should be for the welfare and the well-being of the student, the education of the student. And by the way, I did just think of another school division. Bedford County has open enrollment with their high schools. So I also would like to know, like, is there a procedure or something that you could suggest or something to know which way?

[00:44:43] Because, I mean, yeah, I'm the touchy feely person and I do feel for the kids when they're talking about like, you know, bullying and things like that. But then I hear on another side, no, these parents are just trying to move their kids over to these teams.

[00:45:01] So what is an appropriate procedure to figure that out? Do you have any suggestions? Well, one of the things that we hear, and we have people that call us and ask us about this, especially if you have a student.

[00:45:16] We get into this a lot when we have a student that wants to transfer from one school division to another school division. uh because of bullying or whatever uh and the school divisions aren't as big and they're maybe geographically further apart and it would be closer to go to that school over in a different division uh because of that but the the thing the questions that we always uh that we seem to ask a lot are you know what's what's the documentation on this i mean it's hard you know we get an appeal that someone wants to transfer because of their mental well-being because they've been bullied.

[00:45:57] Okay, so let's go to the school where the student is now. Have they reported this to the principal and to the guidance department or to any staff member there? And a lot of times the answer is no, it hasn't been. Have you worked with the central office folks and the principal on creating a solution or seeing what's going on? Have you looked at transferring to the closest school to you to do that, to go to a different school, rather than you handpicking which school you

[00:46:33] would like to go to? So I think just looking at it, in my experience as a building level educator, as a high school principal, I knew when there was a kid getting bullied or I knew if they weren't because my guidance counselors knew about it. My teachers knew about it. And, you know, you knew the fact it was occurring if it didn't. So I think you just got to sort of take every case individually and sort of look into it. And, you know, it's hard to say that a kid needs to transfer for bullying when no one in the office or no one in the guidance office or no teacher has reported

[00:47:10] that there's any bullying going on and no services have been provided. It's hard to say that that student probably needs to transfer to a different school when we have tried no interventions to address the issue. I think what happens here is that we go ahead and we say okay yeah for special permission it meets the criteria for bullying or something and let's you know move you over but then the VHSL is then it's like a higher standard it seems to me and so I'm wondering if that's

[00:47:44] really the case, we should be looking at it as a higher standard. I'm not exactly sure what you're saying when you say a higher standard. Well, a higher standard being that there's a divorce in the family or something like that. Can I add to that? Yes, ma'am. So this gets to, I forget exactly where the language appears, but we have been advised that the VHSL's level of requirement

[00:48:19] for waivers is undue hardship for the student and that the examples of what constitutes undue hardship for VHSL are fairly severe circumstances such as the death of a parent or close family member or other significant changes of circumstances. Yes, I mean, thank you, Mr. Ferry.

[00:48:55] And that does seem to be to the extent that we are considering requiring, potentially requiring reasons for special permission, which is not something we have done, at least recently, in our division.

[00:49:16] I do not imagine right now that all of our proposed potential categories for reasons would necessarily meet the definition of undue hardship, as we have been given to understand it is as it is defined by VHSL.

[00:49:37] And we do sort of do take a hard line on this. You know, our rules have to apply to 133 school divisions and 317 schools and, you know, the 175,000 students per year who participate in athletics or academic activities.

[00:50:02] So we do have to sort of draw the line in the sand at some place, but it's not like we're uncaring people and don't care about people. But we've got to be thorough to make sure that, you know, this really is what's what's going on here.

[00:50:20] And and that's that's what that's what's happening. So, again, we do ask a lot of questions. I mean, we do need some evidence that that that that things are happening that are creating an undue hardship with that.

[00:50:36] You know, when you were talking about the, you know, an accident or something like that, because we have we have a hard undue hardship clause in any of our eligibility appeals. And like we have, you know, somebody wants an extra year of eligibility.

[00:50:54] We're very strict on that because, you know, what is the undue hardship that caused you to want to play for five years versus four years or because you've turned 19 and you're too old or you don't meet the age requirement?

[00:51:12] You know, we've got to do that because there are safety issues involved in those things. So when we talk about undue hardship, it applies to all of our rules, not just the transfer rule. It applies to all of the eligibility rules. So we do have to be pretty strict and hard about that.

[00:51:28] But at the same time, I don't want you to take away from the picture tonight that, man, that dude doesn't care about anybody. It's all about, you know, he's hardcore. And that's not it because we are very caring people. And the number one concern that we always have is about the safety and the well-being of students and the education of students.

[00:51:51] That those things are the things that should take the precedent and should always be considered number one. I imagine we certainly agree with you on that. I think, not speaking for Ms. Mansfield, but my concern here is how to reconcile our potential categories of special permission with VHSL undue hardship.

[00:52:25] If we are looking at relocation of military families or mental health concerns on the part of a student, what rises to the level of undue hardship?

[00:52:40] If we have a student who is being bullied and wants to get out of that situation and is potentially unhappy, depressed, having a difficult time, is that an undue hardship? or do we need evidence that the student is suicidal to get to undue hardship?

[00:53:04] I don't think so. I mean, can I ask you a couple of questions? I'm not trying to tell you in any way, shape, or form how to run your school system, but when you have a child that has told people that they're being bullied and they don't feel good about it, whatever, I mean, do you do counseling in your schools with those kids and do they work with counselors and do that kind of work?

[00:53:34] We do if it's reported. Yes. Well, and we have also had some instances where it's reported, but it's also they have private care to private care as well as in school care and everything else. Sure. So I think that, you know, if you've got documentation that that's actually happening and that that is for real.

[00:53:57] this young man or this young woman really is being bullied to the fact that you have done counseling and you don't feel like in that school that there's anything else you can do for that child. And for the best sense of that child, you need to move that child. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that piece, in my opinion. What I would like to say is that perhaps if we are using

[00:54:34] documentation a paper trail for any student for any reason to transfer and then ask for a VHSL waiver I'm pretty sure from what we've discussed so far that it would be acceptable to VHSL is that correct yes so we again we have not made any decisions at this point about whether we are going to start requiring families to provide reasons for requesting special permission. But to the extent we are

[00:55:11] considering those, some of the categories that we are considering is if it is a child of an LCPS employee. So for example, if a LCPS employee is transferred from working from one high school to a different high school and wants their child to come with them. I apologize. I'm sorry.

[00:55:34] No, no, no worries. If a student, if a child of an LCS employee goes through ninth grade at one high school and then the parent is transferred to work at a different high school and the parent wants the child to, or wants to apply for special permission for that student and child to transfer to the new high school with the parent, that is a category that we are considering

[00:56:06] being a basis for granting a special permission, but is something that I don't necessarily envision meeting the VHSL definition of undue hardship. No, ma'am. The last court case that we lost, and it's been a few years back, was a case just like that. And what happened was I wasn't here then, but I know the case is that the court told us that we were being arbitrary and capricious,

[00:56:44] that we were providing an opportunity to some kids that wasn't available to all. And I believe one of the examples that I've always heard used was if you let the teacher's child move, because the teacher moved from school A to school B.

[00:57:03] How about the person, the general worker in the community who lives in school A thing, but works in school A area, but moves to, works in school B, can that person take their child with them because they work there in that area and that would be more convenient for them as well?

[00:57:28] Or is that not work that way? Of course, that's the only the option that the teacher gets The general workers who aren't teachers or the general community members don't get that same privilege to do that. Only the teacher gets that. And that's where we lost the court case for being arbitrary and capricious on making that judgment.

[00:57:50] That is not something we allow in our VHSL. If there is a assistant principal in school, well, I'll just use some, you know, if you all have an assistant principal in Prince William and you hire them as a principal in Loudoun County, that teacher can come.

[00:58:18] can that teacher bring their child with them without a move or change in residence? They can, but they're going to be ineligible for 365. So wait, so did you win that case or lose that case?

[00:58:34] We lost that case because of being arbitrary and capricious. Because if we let the teacher who, if we let the principal who lives in Prince William come to Loudoun and bring their child, How about the person that drives for UPS?

[00:58:52] They got transferred from Prince William to Loudoun. So now they have to go to work in Loudoun every day. Can the UPS driver move his child over there as well? So then that, one child is getting a privilege and another child doesn't get.

[00:59:13] So the undue hardship did not apply or did apply. And then they said no. No, that is not an undue hardship. That is the choice. changing jobs is not an undue hardship changing jobs is a choice what I'm seeing is that we need to look at our reasons for granting special permission first and then if they need to make

[00:59:52] a change then we have to also consider the VHSL regulations for transfers and special permissions I think that that's probably where we're going to have to go with this I don't know what do you all think? I think that we are not going to be able to get out of the business of deciding VHSL transfer waivers. But that has to happen after we decide if they actually qualify for special

[01:00:25] permission anywhere else. Because those are things that are basically hardships too. I had a niece. Both her and her husband, they were in the military, were sent out of the country in different directions, and the children had to stay here.

[01:00:46] That would definitely impact their mental health. That might be grandma's going to take care of them, but she lives in the next town, or she lives in a different school district. So then grandma would have to come in and say, can we have special permission from VHSL? They would ask for permission.

[01:01:05] We've never declined a military request. Well, that was just an example of how we need to look at our special permissions and then decide how to deal with the VHSL permissions. Right. There's just a military thing is just no one has any control over that.

[01:01:23] That is not a choice. That is where you get assigned. That's what you do. And, you know, you would be punishing a child for something that's completely out of their control. so at this point we wouldn't touch we wouldn't touch that one at all we would say you're eligible go play and have fun so at this point seeing that it is after five o'clock i'm going to ask my fellow committee members if you have any additional questions for dr harr no but i do

[01:01:55] appreciate you coming thank you very much my my final my final suggestion would be that and this has worked well in our office when i came here nine years ago i made the rule that we have one person in our office that decides eligibility and rules. Because when you have multiple people in multiple places answering the questions, you get multiple answers and you get yourself in trouble.

[01:02:23] So we have someone in our office, we've always had in the nine years I've been here, there's one person that can answer the questions. People call me up and say, can we do this? Here's my opinion, but you need to talk to our director of compliance. And that's the final answer. Because That way you get consistency and you don't get random answers from around.

[01:02:45] So that's my, I apologize for giving my free advice, but. Not at all. Thank you. I can just tell you that that works very well for us. Thank you very much for your time, Dr. Hahn, and your advice and input. It's very helpful for us and we're grateful.

[01:03:01] Thank you all for all that you do. And thank you for your support of the VHSL. And I just want to, if I can take 30 seconds here and just talk about how wonderful your principals and your ADs and Derek Ferry is in support of the VHSL.

[01:03:18] And they love to sponsor and host our state championships many times. And we always appreciate the hospitality and the fine opportunities that our students in the Commonwealth get when they come to Loudoun County to play and participate.

[01:03:34] So thank you very much for all that you do. Thank you for that, Dr. Hahn. We are always grateful to hear positive feedback about LCPS, especially from people outside of our division. And I don't know if you are aware that Mr. Ferry is here, so he was able to hear your glowing praise. Thank you.

[01:03:55] Well, it's well deserved for him and all of your staff. Thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Hahn. Thank you all. Have a great evening. You too. Thank you. How about it? So, I still have several questions going back to your main presentation, but I feel like I need to say for the record, I understand where Dr. Hahn is coming from with his last

[01:04:32] bit of unsolicited advice, but as an attorney, my feeling is that it is not necessary to have a single decision maker if you have clear guidelines and standards for the decisions that are going to be made that you can still obtain consistent outcomes even if you have different decision makers but that's just one woman's opinion okay so if we can go back to the main presentation I had just

[01:05:11] a couple more questions could you speak a little bit more mr. Dolson about the we have family relocation on here but you said that was taken out because there's a separate form could you just speak a little bit more about that yeah it's a separate process so it's just it's something that we take into consideration that would be outside of the special permission process okay right so that is still it would not be part of special permission but if there is family relocation there is still a process to request a change of school correct okay thank you that's in section e starting at line 363 outlines in

[01:05:50] county residents changes move-ins and move-outs I see okay thank you for that and then one of your proposed considerations was to designate entire elementary schools as over-enrolled and not accepting special permission applications I am curious why you are suggesting these two specific schools for that possibility because they are well above the capacity of what they

[01:06:26] were built for and again it goes back to the sheer number of specials in a elementary school with that many of that many students is very difficult especially if you have itinerant teachers art teachers music teachers PE teachers so you may not necessarily have the this number of students for all full-time specials teachers so it gets very difficult when a elementary school is building his master schedule or her master schedule to account for all of

[01:06:59] the requirements in an elementary curriculum I would love for you to add that okay I would just say in addition I think you mentioned it earlier just space alone to make it all happen during the course of the school day when you have multiple sections occurring at the same time say you have nine or ten classes on a grade level going to specials and you need six rotations of that during the day for every grade level to get there there's start locations to do that the gym the cafeteria all the common spaces are not built for that number of students thank you miss layman and mr. Wilson that that

[01:07:38] reasoning makes sense I was I'm more curious as to are there other schools that are nearing the level of overcapacity and if so how did you draw the line specifically with these two so for specifically for these two I reached out to miss Tate in the planning office and I asked her specifically and those the two that she came up with I asked also then conferred with miss layman if we had to change the 95% to 90 it might include other elementary schools more than likely it would but that's just which just I guess the the beginning of

[01:08:16] the drawing board to kind of get you all to think about and I will say that not putting words in elementary principals mouths but they appreciated the consideration because we have never closed an elementary school to my we have okay we have closed elementary schools before not in recent years I was school principal when it happened but we years ago closed an elementary school

[01:08:39] for the very same reason if they if we so 90% so if we decide on 90% what does that do for next year what will that do to the kids that are in special permission now nothing we they're they're part of the projections for next school year okay I just wanted to make sure we weren't ripping things out from under people and that's also an implication for staffing so I explained

[01:09:18] to the principals that because of their projections they because the projections currently include the students that are currently in their buildings whether they are zoned for that school or on special permission their staffing should remain similar to that based on who is there currently so we are I understand

[01:09:56] these proposals correctly we're not if special permission is going to be granted in any individual cases it is only going to be for that year there is not going to be any automatic once you are special permissioned you will be special permissioned for the remainder of your elementary school years or your middle school years or it would be they would be renewals okay and have that that is something to consider currently right now we would renew all of these

[01:10:31] students that are in an elementary school for next school year so putting aside issues of any potential unfairness to current special permission students and this transition going into planning for next year bigger picture in the future what is the benefit to us to the division of the renewals of doing renewals as opposed to everyone applies for special everyone who wants special permission in consecutive years has to apply fresh every year I'm going to comment that I'm gonna probably pitch this to miss layman because I believe

[01:11:08] it does go back to staffing because staffing is not something and it's more difficult in elementary school because of the move-ins that occur and going back to the chart that we have like here if you only have four seats in your all of your first grade classes and you have eight families move in that have first grade students those four students are not going to be a part of that school they're going to be reassigned as per the revisions that we're suggesting and hopefully they will be reassigned to a school within that cluster but that could be difficult given just the location and and you know that the

[01:11:46] move-ins I feel like that is the that's the the clinch here is staffing because we can project and we can hope that we are staffed based on those projections but we can't predict the number of families that are going to move in or move out at any given moment.

[01:12:06] And that's the way it is for all elementary, middle, and high. I feel like it's a little tougher for elementary principals to predict that given the small capacity that they have per grade level.

[01:12:21] So I was speaking with some principals, and they would talk about the bubble. And they would say, based on the projections, you might have a bubble in kindergarten, and that bubble is going to stay with you for a long time. But like right now, a couple of them are saying, I'm great in fourth grade, but man, I really need another fifth grade teacher, but I had to collapse a class.

[01:12:43] So it's, and then you have some principals that have almost twice as many teachers in one grade level, and the grade level below, they have half. So it's just, it's hard to predict, but I will allow Ms. Layman to comment if you. Thank you, Mr. Dolson.

[01:12:59] It's an interesting question. So I understand what would be the benefit of having them renew as opposed to reapplying each year, and I've not thought about it in that way before. But because they are time and date stamped, renewing those that are already there would give priority to those that have already had special permission at the school rather than being at you know leveling the playing field every day and whoever applies first is gonna get those spots the kids that are there on special permission I think we talked about this a couple of meetings ago they're now included in the projected enrollment so the school is staffed to accommodate those children that was not

[01:13:38] the case in the past so you really were you know applying to get this whatever seats were extra seats but we've kind of mrs. Tate's office has kind of adjusted to make this a little more flexible for families that are applying for special permission so to me the only difference between renewing and clean slate would be you're giving priority to those that are already there okay yeah that's helpful thank you I I just I have not liked seeing some of those special permission appeals that have come through the committees where a student

[01:14:14] has never gone to their zoned school and i i i do not want to encourage a presumption that special permission if it is approved one year uh that it is more likely to be approved again in the future or um or should should continue to be thought um but i i understand your point um ms vansfield so there is there is something that i would like for us to think about the you know fourth graders going into fifth graders and because we have a policy

[01:14:53] that says that if we move them to another school for boundaries or a new school or we reboundary then the fifth graders are able to stay there retro actively so I am wondering like for you know if you're there for your fourth grade year then i'm hoping that you yeah senior status but the other thing that i'm so that's one thing is the the fifth graders and then i guess it would be the seventh to eighth graders maybe

[01:15:28] rising eight rising eighth and then 11th to 12th but really for high school we allow them to stay throughout i'm wondering if we should consider the same for middle school so you have to renew every year as opposed to high school where you you know 9 through 12 so Miss Mansfield you do have to renew every year in middle school and high school but I mean I guess we so but you don't have to reapply and you don't have to reapply but you do have to renew so you're coming back so you are coming back yes

[01:16:06] to say you're coming yes and then if you do not renew with inside the window then you do have to reapply and that does cause pause because we have a lot of families that they missed the window and then we have to tell them you have to reapply now so now you're not a renewal you are a new applicant and if that school is over enrolled then we have leaned more towards not accepting that application even though they were there last year on special permission but they forgot to apply or I'm sorry forgot to renew and my office did deny

[01:16:41] those new applications because even though on paper they were there last school year but the school was over capacity if we're saying that that the senior status is for like 5th graders and 8th graders but not necessarily 12th graders correct 12th graders can choose to say at the school that they've been going to for the previous three years correct then we need to take out or make clear on your proposed consideration to take out high school or accept high

[01:17:21] school students or something on that page because that looks like seniors are not allowed to change schools I'm sorry but I'm not I'm not sure I okay we are saying at this point if you are in fifth grade you can choose to stay in the in your special permission school so correct what do you mean by choose to say renew and you can renew I might not be understand understanding this

[01:17:56] properly and if you're in eighth grade you can choose to renew and stay there And then you can do that in high school. Okay then that was my question. I think I only have one more question.

[01:18:17] There is language on the top of page three of the red line. Lines 98 99 it says applications to schools which are projected to be over enrolled will not be accepted. So what does that actually mean.

[01:18:37] And is that is there some conflict with the language on page four beginning on line 156 for over-enrolled school special permission renewal must be submitted by a certain date so that would go back to what miss mansfield and i were speaking about just a few moments ago again it's the difference between a new application and a renewal so let's take for example potomac falls high school potomac falls high school would be considered an over-enrolled school there are give or take 50

[01:19:13] students that are at Potomac Falls High School who are on special permission as long as those 50 students renew they will matriculate up to the next grade level if they do not renew with inside that renewal window they become a new application and we are suggesting that you all consider that when that parent or that student goes into the portal to try to select Potomac Falls High School they would not be able to see Potomac Falls High School because it is an

[01:19:46] over-enrolled school and soon to get worse so 98 can you put new applications to schools which are projected to be over enrolled will not be accepted is that something we could it would be yeah it would be all applications applications parents not applicable to renewals if that's what we mean that's what I'm hearing is that right newles would still be requested just not initial

[01:20:24] applications so i think it's it's the difference between a renewal and an application so the the comfort i will say of this in secondary is that it is easier to renew so once you are in sixth grade at riverbend middle school if you want to stay at riverbend middle school till the eighth grade you all you have to do is renew unlike elementary kindergarten first second you have to reapply okay if you are a parent at Riverbend Middle School and you forget to renew

[01:21:00] during the window then you have to reapply and if the school is over enrolled you won't be able to correct okay the way that we are suggesting that the considerations that we're putting forward so I I'm sorry for interrupting you mr. Dolson but based on what you just said I now I think it's even more important that we need to add some language to lines 98 to 99 to make it

[01:21:21] Crystal clear that it does not apply to renewals requested within the renewal window okay we can do that just so that there's we're making it as crystal clear as we possibly can to parents that if they miss the window it's going to be a lot harder and so following up on you said it just would not appear as an option to request special permission if the school is over enrolled for applications is that something that the parent could then

[01:21:56] appeal we are suggesting no all right okay I believe I have completed all of my questions I know we have to actually talk about are we accepting these proposals or not but are there Ms. Mansfield Ms. LaBelle do you have other

[01:22:21] questions about the proposals all right so I like it I like it

[01:22:53] I like the oh yeah 90 I yeah I I I like the proposals overall I am excited about this proposing this change to the full board I definitely agree that we that we should redefine over enrollment at least for elementary schools to lower to 90 percent that's my that's my feeling I think also in the definition section just to get their attention you might want to def def differentiate between

[01:23:31] applications and renewals yeah I agree I support that so and you do you support the changing the oh the definition of over enrolled to 90% well I think yes and do you do we think we should do that for secondary as well or only for elementary I think secondary just for consistency okay all right so it sounds to me like we have some do we make a motion now it's not really action but

[01:24:04] it's not it's not on for action we're just we are we are requesting edits okay so these are edits I would edit then 95 to 90 for both elementary and secondary all of it and adding in the definition application versus renewal yes and then you're wording for the applications here on page on 98 on page three not this does not apply to renewals within the renewal window within the renewal

[01:24:43] window within the designated renewal window yep which you could say what that window is if we because once we decide that oh yeah the okay so I do have a thought I mean what about fifth grade is that are we going to retroactively put them in or we are going to have them renew and if they were and I'm sorry applying and renewing must be renewed here so sorry so art are we saying that

[01:25:22] because you've got two numbers that's what we're trying to figure out why assume that was a typo no so we took we we struck through four and we added five okay so that you just can't see it because the fours yeah yeah if you look hard enough you can see it but for for all the grades first through 12 if a student is special permission approved one year and then wants to do it again the following year they have to renew is that correct with the exception of K

[01:25:55] through five because they because right now it is it says must be renewed each year we just so we would have to shall only be approved on an annual basis and must be renewed each year that's a little confusing yeah so they really have to apply they have to reapply okay so every student has to apply every year the renewal is inherent in the system because the system indicates that their

[01:26:35] renewal so every everybody's going through the same process the parent the process for a parent who's renewing or the process for a parent who's applying for the first time is the same every year but if they apply within the renewal window then that they're automatically approved that is why we need the definition in the definitions but I I think I know what Ms. Mansfield is getting at and I agree if we are saying that elementary school students have to do a new application every year that they are not eligible for the renewal

[01:27:14] within the renewal window process I agree for rising fifth graders they should be allowed to participate in the renewal process because if it is giving students priority on special permission I don't love the idea of a rising fifth grader not having that making it harder for a rising fifth grader to remain in the school that they have been attending well that that's in the current that is

[01:27:54] in the current policy but it says may renew so they're subject to capacity and so if that's not what you want then that would be changed because right now it's in the in the policy that they may be admitted maybe so not that they will be approved it's based on if there's capacity in that fifth grade that's the current policy line that we have here because there's new five and four here that's why I'm wondering that's what I was well I mean I'm talking to you know

[01:28:31] before our our suggested revisions the policy before was that fifth graders may be approved if there was capacity right and they crossed it out here it was it's all in red here right this right so we would want to put that back in if that's your decision that's what you're saying that we should put back in if that's our

[01:28:54] decision that's the way to do it yes but this is is this arising fifth graders are we talking about initial applications or are we talking about renewals renewals we're talking about renewals because if you look in B1 that's through the red line it says that the students

[01:29:27] approval to this special the school I'm sorry to the school that special permission was granted has not been rescinded during the school year by the parent legal guardian or LCPS and that the renewal has been done within the window and that there is capacity that's the last part of that except for the the conditions are set forth in this policy but renewals are basic if they would be part of the capacity yes you're right they would

[01:30:05] already be part of that capacity so one if it's a renewal they still they will have the option to request renewal even if the school is over capacity yes yes that is yes i want to keep that i want to keep i want to retain that capability okay we need to change that to whatever the new yes um okay and then sorry but for 3a that says special

[01:30:41] permission shall only be approved on an annual basis and must be renewed i apologize but i am still confused sorry kindergarten through fourth eligible for the renewal process or not it would be yeah not currently they are not no okay so we would need to change the

[01:31:16] freezing of that okay are we committee members are we okay leaving that as is because if we are we would just change that would go back to K through four right special permission shall only be approved on an annual basis at the elementary level in grades K through four yes and then there would be a special thing for fifth grade yeah yeah and then but then we need to I think change or get rid of this language that talks about renewing each year we would have to say they must reapply yes which is different from renewal

[01:31:56] i'm gonna be dreaming about that tonight we'll reply okay um okay are we are we all are we all comfortable with that okay okay um so we're putting back part b but changing the date and for part a we're changing that back to k through four and not using the word renew in

[01:32:21] paragraph okay and then my sticking point are we are we coming to VHSL we are coming to VHSL so I okay so we are going to have to continue to deal with VHSL

[01:32:49] waivers that is my conclusion so my wonder some is if we want to wait or if we want to go ahead and do it which the VHSL part 193 through 218 if we if we want to look at doing this now or doing this another part another time and then moving what we might want to move to the board so that they could meet these

[01:33:26] timelines so what do you mean by doing this because most of this was already well except I would I mean because personally I would and I guess I would get rid of the that it will result in 365 days of an eligibility may result in that but there's still something that we can be I mean after I'm hearing from him do you I mean do you want to leave the generally in yeah generally because if

[01:34:00] we say will result then that's now our policy and it will happen yes so we put the generally back in okay and are you okay with the rest of it because I read the the red lines on the new subparagraph two as not so much making a change but well putting it more clearly into the policy how well I will tell you

[01:34:33] that it has just the superintendent and his designee and that is not what they say here in the VHSL okay is a school board or division superintendent may transfer a student as opposed to so division superintendent or designee does that if we do that then is that going to get rid of that appeals process what if

[01:35:04] we what if we take out chair Donahue yes may mr. Ferry speak yes sorry can I just clarify like that may transfer obviously when we transfer students either under you know administrative placement and if that's available or when OSA does it disciplinary actions you know that's when we grant we use that waiver because we're placing this

[01:35:39] student right under special permission the school division isn't placing the student the parents are placing the student by what dr. Hahn mentioned earlier by choice right so it's consequences with choices which is also identified in the policy the understanding the ramifications so but his wording in his policy says a school board or division superintendent so i if i could make a

[01:36:07] suggestion yeah for sub part two could we perhaps consider keeping in the first part unless there is an actual corresponding change of residence of the parent or legal guardian or the student is enrolling as a first-time ninth grader in accordance with vhsl rules i want to take out anything about you know may transfer without affecting and just focus on

[01:36:42] maybe we should even combine it with the previous paragraph will generally result in 365 days of ineligibility unless there is an actual corresponding change of residence of the parent slash or legal guardian or the student is enrolling as a first-time ninth grader or the student obtains a waiver under vhsl transfer rule 28a-7-1 and then we take out any references to superintendent or school board

[01:37:10] or whoever makes the decision about the waivers have the appeal well i don't i don't think that that is true because i think vhsl makes us deal with our appeals yeah but it would make it a little bit more streamlined the vhsl doesn't make us deal with it they just don't what they are saying is this obviously we created a policy that violates their rules so it's a local school

[01:37:46] division matter to deal with right so it doesn't mean that you have to have an appeal process the waiver you know request could stop at the superintendent or superintendent designee unless you know we have a policy 2350 which is the administrative review of decisions and that's how those appeals end up at your level unless I'm speaking wrong Wes I mean to my mind what I think is a paramount importance here in this section of the policy is to

[01:38:25] be really really really clear that if special permission is requested and approved by us that does not get you out of the VHSL eligibility issues and to have it be really clear that right that is that is there is another step that

[01:38:50] they would have to take unless certain conditions are met and I mean I definitely think that I was considering whether those two paragraphs could or

[01:39:20] should be combined but it was mr. Ferry made a point about subparagraph small I one refers to student requested transfers and special permission by a very strict interpretation is requested by the parents so maybe that can't be so maybe why that's a question I don't know it would be one in the same I mean

[01:39:58] okay I think it is student so we so we could combine these two paragraphs and and say under VHSL rules, subsequent requests by students or parents slash legal guardians for transfers will generally result in 365 days of ineligibility unless there is an actual corresponding change of residence of the parent or legal guardian, or the student is enrolling as a first-time ninth grader, or the student obtains a waiver under VHSL transfer rule 28A-7-1.

[01:40:36] such waiver I would like this to say will not not should not will not or may not

[01:41:07] so I mean I mean we can we're already referencing it but so are you I'm sorry I feel that I may have misunderstood the source of your concern with the current proposal in the red line is it because it says superintendent or or designee and you want it to say school board or you prefer it to have both?

[01:41:38] - So my problem with just the super, my problem that I'm thinking is with the superintendent and or designee may transfer a student, how then our policy will only say that it can only be those people and not what it says here, the school board, because I'm a little concerned that if we don't have a school board, then that's gonna take that whole appeals off.

[01:42:02] so if so would it address your concerns if we added in accordance with vhsl rules the school board or the division superintendent or or designee may transfer the student by name school division yeah i mean i think we should lift their language that's their language yeah

[01:42:33] rather than just put it in with the number okay mrs richardson mr dolson mr ferry mr allen are there concerns with that possibility are are there concerns with incorporating the

[01:43:03] VHSL language word-for-word into this section are you understanding my my concern thank you I am I think there's a couple of considerations certainly with the overarching consideration. The school board is sending this policy, right? And so it's under

[01:43:39] its authority. It's a saying that a student can be transferred without affecting the student's eligibility by granting a waiver. And so that's one interpretation such that it's not the actual school board that's actually doing the transferring. It's authorizing the transfer of the student.

[01:44:00] how is that completed or executed through the division superintendent or designee that's that's one way currently the school board doesn't have any role there's a select committee of the school board under policy 2350 I believe it is the administrative appeals process so there's a select committee of the school board but that's not an act of the school board that's an act of select committee through that appellate process under policy 2350 that determines whether the

[01:44:35] division superintendent's designate decision on the the waiver um should be overturned or affirmed so to speak so that's the current practice

[01:44:57] so under 2315 that policy actually indicates that um okay so i'll read it several administrative decisions made by the school division are appealable by parents and legal guardians of students and by adult students appeals to the school board of administrative decisions are permitted only when authorized by specific school board policy and so this policy vis-a-vis with respect to the vhsl

[01:45:30] portion of that there's no appeal process authorized special permission yes but not vhsl so that brings us to kind of the fundamental question is are the appeals of the vhsl waiver aspect is that authorized in policy i don't see that it is under in our policy correct because if we look to policy 2350 it says appeals to the school board of administrative decisions are permitted only when authorized by specific school board policy and so then that begs the distinction it's not really an appeal to the school board of an administrative

[01:46:10] decision as we currently run it that it's a select committee of the school board which is I guess separate and apart and distinct from the school board so there's a lot of considerations and interpretations so I think this begs further analysis to clarify so one of the things that I just want to offer in in my interpretation. The waiver is for administrative decisions. When a parent makes the

[01:46:41] request, there is no waiver. And special permission is a parent making a request. I believe that's what Dr. Hahn, it's a choice. It's the choice that the parent, and in some cases the student, but we'll just leave it to be simplified language, parent makes that request to honor their child's request to change schools. There is no waiver vis-a-vis VHSL. However, if we as a division

[01:47:15] move a student that is when the waiver is implemented and can be requested inclined to return to my prior suggestions of combining those first two paragraphs and changing the language looking to mr allen because sometimes he can be my he's he's like the mansfield translator

[01:47:47] sometimes i need a little help so mr allen would if we change this language and combine those two paragraphs but with changed language so that it read under VHSL rules subsequent requests for transfers by students or parents or returning to a regular school of assignment will generally result in 365 days of ineligibility unless there is an actual corresponding change of residence of the parent or legal guardian or the student is enrolling as a first-time ninth grader or the

[01:48:23] student obtains a waiver under VHSL transfer rule 28A-7-1, period. Such waiver will not be considered for athletic and or activity purposes. Would that? Thank you, Chair Donahue. I think that it would generally, I think we need to clarify the piece that it's not a waiver of the VHSL transfer role i think we need to add another step or clarification that says lcps will apply

[01:48:58] the vhsl transfer role because is is that correct mr ferry so unless there is an actual change of residence or the student is enrolling as a first time ninth grader or lcps applies the transfer Rule criteria under 28A-7-1.

[01:49:31] I think it's LCPS finds that the criteria under VHSL transfer rule 28A-7-1 has been met, right? Okay. I think that's the correct characterization. I'd also take out subsequent.

[01:49:47] I think that adds a layer of confusion. Under VHS rules, student requested transfers. Or parent. Subsequent to special permission. You have to ask actor.

[01:50:03] Correct. But I don't see that special permission. So I think that's an innate. So if we go back to F, it talks about school by special permission, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.

[01:50:23] So, I think under VHSL rules, student requested transfers, I just think subsequent, or maybe subsequent to a grant of special permission, comma, under VHSL rules, student requested transfers for VHSL participation in VHSL activities.

[01:50:51] So, I think we need to flesh it out. subsequent to a subsequent to approval of a request to transfer school under special subsequent to a request for special permission subsequent to the approval of a request for special permission under VHSL rules so it's important to go back to what the actual rule

[01:51:23] says for VHSL the student shall not have enrolled in one high school and subsequently transferred to and enrolled in another high school without a corresponding change in the residence of his or her parents parent or guardian the sending and receiving VHSL school principals are required to complete and file the VHSL transfer form acknowledging that to the best of their knowledge the student has

[01:52:01] met all aspects of the transfer rule or its exceptions. Homeschool instruction does not constitute enrollment in a public school. Homeschooling is a process through which Virginia Code compulsory education requirements may be met. As in private schooling, homeschooling is the equivalent of school enrollment for transfer rule purposes and determining whether the student has met scholarship

[01:52:37] rule requirements of having passed the five academic subjects recognized by the Virginia Department of Education in the most recent prior semester. Thank you Ms. Richardson before we follow up with further conversation on this topic I I would like to inquire of my fellow committee members if there are concerns with any of the other proposed revisions in the policy.

[01:53:14] We've talked through several. Obviously we seem to have more conversation to be had about this language. Are there concerns, questions about any of the other remaining red line proposals starting at part four

[01:53:37] beyond I am also I am good with we discussed some changes to earlier parts of your revisions and I am good with everything from line 220 to the end I just wanted to take a brief sidebar to see if there are other questions concerns

[01:54:14] issues that we need to hammer out other than the VHSL okay so for line 300 okay so when special permission is denied between the first business day of January and April 30th parents guardians may appeal per the guidelines below unless they are over enrolled is that is that true is that yeah unless it is over

[01:54:44] enrolled let's add that to make it clear may appeal unless the requested special permission school is we took it out they took out the over and if there are if there are renewals requested for over enrolled schools those requests

[01:55:23] would still go to you and if they are denied right would still be eligible for appeal unless we decide to change it so that they're not so one might ask the question is subsection two under 5a needed what we are saying is unless the school is over enrolled up in number five because that outlines the appeals process to an over enrolled school so they can't they can't appeal to over

[01:55:56] enrolled schools unless it's a renewal correct okay is that clear though in here because at this point I'm seeing letters so I feel like it's clear because we live this every day for people that are not living this every

[01:56:25] day it's it's a bit confusing um mr. Carpenter do you want it well you can't even apply to an over enrolled school right now though you can but you can

[01:56:53] renewed to the open renew within the window okay no this is this is so complicated so it would be an awful thing for a senior who's done three years with special permission and his parents forgot to renew him and he has to go back for an application but since the school would be over enrolled then he wouldn't be able to graduate but we carved out with them but we cart yeah

[01:57:23] but that's why we carved out that right for senior status they can okay line 334 okay so the thing I hate is the requiring additional staff or incurring additional costs for our special education because that is one of the reasons they well that's the main reason that they get hit every time no

[01:57:54] Miss Richardson is disagreeing with me and that's okay 334 I mean living the process it's not just special education it is every single service that we provide that has to be considered when we're looking at trying to stay within our staffing standards and do we shift resources or are we going to consider amending the policy to provide more flexibility now what I will tell you is

[01:58:31] that it will naturally happen by moving up the timeline and lowering the percentage we will know and know the capacity earlier to be able to predict staffing and so we're constantly we are now the practice is and working with business and finance we're running the referrals looking at the eligibility rates looking at trends across every single school that is something that our our Director of Procedural Support, Mrs. Donna Smith, and Dr. Paige Carter, our Director of Special Education,

[01:59:11] are doing twice a month at a minimum, at a minimum. It is also important to note that the flow of a school year, as Mrs. Lehman spoke to, you're doing most of your diagnostic assessments now, right?

[01:59:28] We've done those, we've moved into second quarter. Second quarter is really when you begin to see a shift instruction and the expected application of said instruction by students so you may have already referred to the MTSS process you could be moving through those tiers for those of us that have lived special education especially in the seat of a director you know the largest amount of your referrals and students being found eligible comes in the third quarter because you've given students

[02:00:03] the opportunity to participate and access and demonstrate benefit from instruction. You've exhausted interventions, so then you make the referral, so we see the highest amount of eligibilities coming in third quarter. I couldn't even begin to tell you the dates of third quarter, so don't even ask me, right? But I can tell you that historically, we're looking at that March-April time frame when you see the trend go up right now we do have mr. Lodi here

[02:00:38] present with us and he is our director of diagnostic and prevention services and he will tell you that our eligibility and referral rate while we thought we would see a little bit of a drop-off it does not appear to be impacting us that way this year we still seem to be trending upwards which we began to realize in the 22 23 school year caught us a little bit off guard we continued to trend high 23 24 and we are continuing on that path for 24 25 so I do think

[02:01:17] because students with disabilities that are already on special permission they're already counted in the projection they're not touched right unless their parents say that they want some sort of school change okay keeping our staffing standards at that 1 to 10 making sure that we're running case loads looking at building averages that's also something that mrs. Smith and dr. Carter do to make sure that we're staying within our staffing standard because we do know that if a school creeps too high like too close to that 1 to 15 which we've internally set as a division we're then going to tap

[02:01:53] into flexible staffing for school okay that is that is a budget that is a a budget item so yes you are right so you are really member of the F&O right so you're really contemplating right and so I think what is what needs to be understood is yes the policy says without recurring additional staff or incurring additional cost when we are looking at the services and placements of students with disabilities we're not thinking about the

[02:02:30] special permission policy okay we're thinking about kids we're thinking about what they need what our schools need and we provide the staffing we don't often go back to this policy and say oh but on line 332 if we've already said yes to a student being placed there in special permission and then we rerun the numbers and we realize that we need to add more staff we add more staff because our

[02:03:06] school board has given us the opportunity to tap into flexible staffing. I will tell you that Mrs. Smith and Dr. Carter have also been very thoughtful this year and have built in sort of a bank that we can go to without exhausting flexible staffing for all things special education because we do know we have a whole division of students to serve and multiple departments tap into the same bucket of flexible staffing. Okay so we are strategic but always looking at what's the impact of disability and how does it play out at the

[02:03:44] building level. We're constantly talking to principals and getting their feedback. We hear from deans and designees and teachers and parents. So please know that our daily actions while this policy, sure, it guides our actions, we put students first without question. Thank you, Ms. Richardson, any other questions, concerns,

[02:04:23] issues about parts of the policy other than how we deal with VHSL? Ms. LaBelle? - Okay. - Yes, ma'am, Ms. Richardson. - The senior status, so when I go back to my notes, starting at line 118, I've heard two things, right?

[02:04:50] So I have section A starting of the other factors for special permission. Special permission shall only be approved on an annual basis at the elementary level in grades K-4, that was the new change, right?

[02:05:07] And must reapply each year. We'll fix the wording there. But then I've also heard you say senior status, and so I do have in my notes, is that a consideration that you want us to consider for eighth grade and 12th grade, as well as fifth grade?

[02:05:24] Because eighth grade is not based on grade level capacity, nor is 12th grade. But I've heard you say senior status, so I just wanna make sure that we capture this correctly. - Thank you for that question, Ms. Richardson. So for me, my understanding is eighth graders, rising eighth graders and rising seniors, if they are on special permission as seventh graders and 11th graders, have the opportunity to renew

[02:06:01] for their eighth grade and senior years. But if this were staying 12 through five, rising fifth graders would not have that opportunity. And so my desire was to have that option available for rising fifth graders.

[02:06:23] If my colleagues had other concerns, I encourage you to speak up. - As long as you put in the words rising fifth grader, because when you look at it, it looks like, oh, my child's in fifth grade, but they're gonna go to sixth grader.

[02:06:41] they allowed to renew or so that clarifies it a bit you know rising fifth graders rising eighth graders and rising 12th graders does that answer your question Ms. Richards yes we want it specifically for rising fifth got it yes please well because the renewal applies to rising eighth and rising twelfth got it but it wouldn't for rising fifth but so we're going to default back

[02:07:11] to the previous language that we had stricken from section B got it yes so at this at this point I'm going to take advantage of my chairship and I am going to move to suspend the rules am I allowed to say I made a motion and Ms.

[02:07:43] LaBelle seconded my motion to suspend the rules has been properly moved and seconded all those in favor please say aye aye that motion passes unanimously so now I can make an action motion correct mr. Allen okay thank you I'm glad people are laughing we're bringing some joy hopefully okay I am generally disinclined to suspend the

[02:08:21] rules unless there's a really good reason for doing it and in I really don't like doing it in this case I think it is appropriate because I am going to make a motion to go ahead and vote on sending revisions to policy 8155 to the full board for its consideration rather than putting it off for a separate date in this committee for action and my reasons for doing that are because it is already November 7th the next student

[02:08:58] services committee meeting is scheduled for December 19th and we are proposing to change the timeline and open the special permission window on January 1st And in order to allow the full board to have time to consider these proposals and discuss them and approve them or not approve them, I feel that it is appropriate in this circumstance to suspend the rules, which is why I made that motion.

[02:09:25] And now I am going to move to send the proposed revisions to policy 8155 with the edits that we have discussed and agreed upon this evening to the full board for its consideration.

[02:09:46] asterisk I can say already I would love to make a proposed amendment for the VHSL language that could be considered at that time because we have been here for two hours and 15 minutes and I do not want to spend the time here that it would take additionally right now to hammer out VHSL language so my my motion is to send the proposed revisions for policy 8155 with

[02:10:22] the amendments as discussed to the full board for its consideration is there a second I second thank you Ms. LaBelle my motion has been properly moved and seconded is there any discussion Ms. LaBelle I like your idea of sending it forward with the plan that we might be able to get together and edit and put it in at the board meeting for the VHSL I think that gives us a lot more time to look come up with a verbiage that is absolutely clear and what we have in

[02:10:59] mind and then present it at that board meeting and let them discuss it and go through the pain thank you thank you miss LaBelle to mention it so that's my discussion so I'm just wondering if we do that at the already long board meeting or we wait until and or we pause on the VHSL part and then bring it back so

[02:11:38] fair point in this bands field I probably everyone else here is aware as as we are that in your position as chair you actually set the agendas for full board meetings. And looking at the calendar, there are three full board meetings between now and the winter break. And because of that, I had expected to leave to your discretion if you

[02:12:14] wanted this to be added to the November 12th meeting, which is very soon, or potentially the November 26th meeting as an information item. Would that give enough time at the November 27th? It would not give enough time for the November 26th. It would not.

[02:12:38] So it would have to go on the November 12th. It would have to go on Tuesday for information. For information. So we could discuss. I don't know what's on the agenda for the 12th. I don't know how much pain this will cause. No pain. May cause dr. Smith some pain over there okay I will with the understanding we can put it

[02:13:16] on the November 12th meeting and with the understanding that we should come up with some separately because if we do it together that's a meeting but but now we can do it in pairs we could once we voted out of committee I don't think in pairs isn't that correct mr. Allen but I think that there can be some I think you as

[02:13:52] chair of this committee can work with mr. Allen because I think we all kind of understand what we're dealing with here and what we have dealt with before with VHSL so at that point and Ms. Richardson and or Mr. Dolson and Mr. Ferry I don't want to cut you out it's a party okay so I'll agree to it normally I would not because I like to have things fully baked before we go to the school board strong agree the only

[02:14:27] reason I'm doing this is because I think that it's important to try and fix what we can and and get it in place and see what see if this helps so um all right i agree with those thoughts ms mansfield and uh i i appreciate your forbearance in this uh under these circumstances of being willing to go along um and and i i as an aside i really like this idea of adding reasons

[02:15:06] and obviously we are not doing that in time for january 1st but i i'm going to be very interested in following up on these ideas in the future um ms richardson seeing as the next full board meeting is in fact in november 12th which is next less than a week away does that allow you and your staff sufficient time to put together these recommendations and additional revisions

[02:15:40] for the board's agenda for the 12th thank you chair donohue for that question um i do believe the staff and i have clarity bless you um on an on the exact changes the revisions that you would like to see come forward um i think the only clarifying question that i would have is would you like for staff for the november 12th meeting to have of course the revisions that you have have discussed tonight and the proposed VHSL policy language that you've gone

[02:16:17] over tonight but have not made any changes to at this time as well as a draft including the new revisions but the existing VHSL language would that be helpful for the board to have both of those and then of course you would be working on language for us to consider I think to have this in here as far as - They can have the whole VHSL book right into board docs so that they can read it too.

[02:16:50] - Okay, all right, we will. - And you can take excerpts out of that if you want, but I think that they need to have access to the whole thing. - Chair Donahue, can I ask just a point of clarification for the Tuesday night board meeting?

[02:17:09] - Oh, yes, but can I tack on to, in response to Ms. Richardson's question, If your question, Ms. Richardson, was what version of revisions we will be putting on board docs, I am fine with leaving this language right now because we have not agreed on any specific changes.

[02:17:34] Like I said, I am certainly happy to try and put together a proposed amendment for consideration or if staff wants to do that, I wouldn't say no, but you have many other questions. things to do but I if you were asking do we want a version of the draft with the previous VHSL language not including these red lines I don't think that that's necessary. Mr. Dolson. So my only question is background on the iterations

[02:18:12] that we have all so lovingly gone through with this policy for Ms. Richardson's and our staff's preparation I feel as though your colleagues on the board are very very familiar with the with where the policy was they have not necessarily all been a part of the revisions so as far as a presentation what we would like to I would like to suggest is that we sort of highlight some of the things that we have discussed here with the expectation that they will I'm sure come with other questions but I guess my my only question to you is are there any things that within the presentation that we went through this

[02:18:51] evening I don't think it's necessary to walk them through line by line but are there any pieces of the highlighted parts that you feel like your colleagues would need more clarification regarding the proposed revisions that we are suggesting taking VHSL out of it because I think that's a separate entity I mean we've I've tried to be very transparent and communicative that we are tackling

[02:19:28] this issue and have encouraged the other board members to attend our meetings attend our work sessions send us send us or you questions concerns so that we can even if they were not able to come to any of our meetings or work sessions that we could address concerns questions but the one thing that I really would like is that there and and we did not talk about it but I do think we need to talk about it as a board the thought that there needs if if we're going to be talking about bullying and all that kind of stuff I think we do need some

[02:20:06] documentation a paper trail a paper trail that that's part of the and I don't know if that's operations and what that would be you know as as part of them require a paper trail so Ms. Mansfield if I can ask a clarifying question does that that seems to go into these proposed considerations of categories of specific reasons which are

[02:20:37] not currently required which I while I I would like to see us go in this direction also thought that we all had kind of agreed adding that on to changing the timeline and VHSL might be maybe Okay, then put it off until a year, and let's agree to relook at this policy in a year after we have figured out some of this, and see what has happened.

[02:21:11] What do you think? I like that. I mean, because if we don't, then we're going to say, oh, well, you've got to come back in five years. But I think this merits coming back in about a year. And I would actually encourage us to maybe six or eight months, because it has taken us so long.

[02:21:33] to work through these issues and we're moving up the window, we will have data earlier with regard to the numbers and whatever information parents are providing when they request special permission. We will have that data available earlier than it was available previously.

[02:21:53] But yes, I like that idea. - So to put a kink in the plans, advisory committees, when are they able to get this in the red line version? because we know that SEAC won't be able to look at it until later.

[02:22:12] - We plan to, our initial thought was to post this evening, but we thought we would be done before 6:25. So we will work to have these revisions posted for public feedback and review tomorrow morning.

[02:22:29] - Thank you for asking that question, Ms. Mansfield. Thank you for working on that, Ms. Richardson. And I had meant to say something about that as well, Because that is also one of the reasons why I do not like suspending the rules, because it does cut off those opportunities.

[02:22:47] And in these circumstances, again, I feel a little bit more comfort because we have made such efforts to let everyone know that we want to change this policy.

[02:23:03] And I realize that the advisory committees have not had the benefit of the red lines to provide specific feedback on specific proposals. but we have made everyone aware that we are looking at the policy for revisions so there have at least been opportunities for people to weigh in with opinions and I assume at some point before the full board acts on votes on no we won't have SEAC doesn't vote until December 4th

[02:23:36] okay DX sitting here SIAC is a body I was getting at I assume the red line will be put I can we post the red line for public feedback and I assume we will have the opportunity to review that feedback at some point before the board votes on this as an action item correct so based on the committee's

[02:24:11] um direction this evening we will work to make all of the proposed revisions made this evening first thing tomorrow morning so that it can be posted tomorrow morning for feedback we will have it ready and uploaded to board docs along with the vhsl manual in preparation for an information item to the board on november the 12th that means that if we post tomorrow morning it would close November 22nd that means we would have the feedback available before November

[02:24:45] before November 26 for the board to consider so what mrs. Mansfield is shaking her head because not all advisory committees would have had the opportunity as a body as a whole committee to be able to look at the revisions and provide feedback they could certainly provide feedback as individuals at belonging to that committee but that is correct unless we work with our CEC leadership to see if they can get a special subcommittee

[02:25:18] meeting scheduled and pull a quorum together for the 26th of November thank you for that Ms. Richardson I regret the imposition or possible shortchanging of the advisory committees I don't feel great about that and I do I do encourage

[02:25:45] And I would love to reach out to advisory committees to encourage them to offer individual feedback, members to offer individual feedback if they feel comfortable doing so. Ms. Vansfield?

[02:26:08] Yes, hopefully SEAC we can work with and talk with them because I know this is not ideal at all. But timelines are timelines at this particular moment in time. Because ideally we want to help and that's part of the population we want to help.

[02:26:28] so I'm just hoping okay and I think that considering that we might be revising this in maybe six months as we see things go along anything that comes back from committees that needs to be fixed we'll have the opportunity to do it yes that is next time around yes thank you thank you thank you for thank you for I won't let you forget three okay we have not actually voted thank you for

[02:27:06] that reminder Ms. Mansfield I made the motion to refer the revisions to policy 8155 with the amendments that we discussed to the full board as an information item that motion has been properly moved and seconded we have had discussion is there any further discussion no all those in favor please say aye. Aye. Okay. Ms. Richardson, thank you. Yes, you're absolutely right. I apologize. Thank you, Ms. Richardson. Thank you, Mr. Dolson. Thank you, Mr. Ferry. Thank you, everyone. Thank you to everyone.

[02:27:42] For your patience. Thank you for your patience and assistance working through this process. We're not even done with our agenda. We have item 4. 02, revisions to Policy 5345 restraints equation. Oh no, I know.

[02:27:58] Can we, I don't like to suggest it because I don't like to get our committee off track and behind schedule, but I too did not expect we would still be here after two and a half hours of working through special permission. So Ms. Richardson and fellow committee members, would we be agreeable to punting the discussion of this information item to the December meeting, even though we started talking about it last spring?

[02:28:30] I think that would make a wonderful, jolly Christmas preparation for us to complete. Remember, these have to be happy or we don't make progress.

[02:28:46] I know. You're not wrong. I'll even bring extra Santa props for us. To answer your question, Chair Donahue, staff would be willing and ready to move this to the December 19th.

[02:29:05] Or would staff prepare to stay here for another hour? Staff is not willing to stay here for another hour. Oh, that's settled. So I can definitively answer that question. But we are happy to bring it back for December 19th. Thank you.

[02:29:21] Thank you. Apologies that I'm making you punch it again. Okay. Moving on to agenda item number five, new business. Is there any new business? Ms. LaBelle? Thank God. No. Thank God. Okay. In that case, the November 7th, 2024 meeting of the Student Services Committee, which I expect will go down as the longest Student Services Committee meeting ever.

[02:29:44] At least up until restraint and seclusion is now adjourned. Thank you, everyone, for being here and staying. Our next committee meeting is December 19th, 2024. Thank you, everyone, and get home safely.

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