Coraggio Consulting
Loudoun County Public Schools, Student Services Committee Meeting, Thursday, October 16, 2025

Date: Thursday, October 16, 2025
Place: LCPS Administration Building / School Board Room, Ashburn, Virginia
Length: 1h 14m (video)
Official meeting video (Vimeo / LCPS-TV): https://player.vimeo.com/video/1126022442?rel=0

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-13. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:00:03] good afternoon everyone welcome to the october 16th 2025 meeting of the student services committee i am ann donahue i am the chair of this committee with me are ms melinda mansfield and ms carrie labelle my fellow committee members we will this as a reminder this meeting is being audio recorded only it is not being video recorded and it is not being live streamed but it is being audio recorded so i'll ask that everyone please remember to turn your mics on and speak into the microphone when you are talking for the recording and anyone will be able to access the recording to listen to in

[00:00:42] um in the future after it is posted on the lcps website so uh that is um with that i will move to item number two on our agenda which is public comment i see that we have one speaker signed up for public comment today thank you for engaging with the school board through the public comment process the school board welcomes comments from Loudoun County residents and believes that strong community engagement and outreach are important components of a successful school system speakers must

[00:01:20] limit comments to the time allotted based on the number of speakers and the agenda this evening the speaker has been allotted three minutes for public comment speakers who missed their time slot will not be called at a later time all audience members shall maintain civility decorum and respect for the functioning and dignity of the school board at all times and abide by the public comment procedure set forth in school board policy 2520 entitled participation by the public and on the LCPS citizen participation website those resources also provide information on the distribution of materials to school board members given that under no circumstances may a speaker approach the board members here at the table in accordance with school board policy 2520

[00:01:59] speakers should refrain from vulgarity obscenities defamation profanity or other light breaches of civility decorum and respect speakers also may not target criticize or attack individual students and or individual division employees during public comment or engage in conduct that otherwise disrupts or delays the meeting inappropriately loud conversations or outbursts from those in attendance will not be tolerated and security staff will be asked to restore order per school board policy 2520 when reasonable the committee chair will warn a speaker of breaches of decorum There are these rules prior to the chair terminating speaking privileges or taking other action to preserve the civil empty court even orderly conduct of the meeting which could include but is not limited to

[00:02:36] Committee chair directing staff to remove the attendee from the remainder of the meeting and or the public comment being concluded for the evening We look forward to hearing your comments our one public speaker who is signed up this evening is mr. Woodis mr.

[00:02:53] What if I'm going to set a timer on my cell phone for three minutes I will start it when you begin speaking, and I imagine we will all hear it when it gets to zero. I will ask you to have a seat and turn the microphone on, please. Thank you.

[00:03:14] I was not sure what to make of last week's meeting, nor exactly what to say that could influence proceedings. To be clear, my criticisms are based on recent experience, but the intention is to use those to recommend positive amendments to both policy and procedure with the best interests of all students in mind.

[00:03:44] My interests for families and student families, not LCPS administrators. That said, what I saw last week reminded me of a popular quote. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results. It's insane to think that I can make an impact in two minutes on multiple points.

[00:04:04] You might hear me, but do you listen? In return, you are allowed unlimited time for a single issue without interruption of a stopwatch. Policy 8155 impacts hundreds of families, yet I'm the only parent here hoping for dialogue, or maybe the others behind me.

[00:04:23] I had my hands up last week to add to a Melinda Mansfield comment, but no one, not one of you asked me why at the end, not even my co-coctin rep. What does that say about your attitude towards parents? I've tried resolving past issues with LCPS, but your organization blocks constructive dialogue.

[00:04:44] Generic emails, a delayed FOIA which withheld key details, and a regular reprise from Cheryl Richardson to Debbie Rose suggesting a stalling tactic from legal. It's disheartening, yet it seems to be the LCPS way.

[00:04:59] Not only does my son's case deserve proper review before changes are made for 2026, but so too 28 other denied middle school students from page 8 of your policy document or the review document last week.

[00:05:19] LCPS acts as if the system is flawless, but treats children like statistics. For example, 62.3% middle school special ed requests approved. Well done, LCPS. That leaves 29 students whose futures you ruined.

[00:05:36] You defend IEP ratios that favour your beliefs over assigned schools. Policy 8155 never mentioned IEPs. Last week's proposed changes sounded superficial, adding protection for LCPS and empowering further authority in Dolson, who faces an HR complaint from me.

[00:05:58] It's not just the policy, but the execution and process that needs to be reviewed. why is Dolson giving input here while my complaint is ongoing I trust Tedra Richardson but it is a conflict for her to oversee my complaint Dolson should not run student services that is parent feedback I see systemic LCPS arrogance suggesting parents don't matter we are your key stakeholders

[00:06:27] policy 8155 once promoted is that three okay fair enough thank you for sharing your thoughts now we will move on to item number three on our agenda which is approval of the draft minutes from the october 9th 2025 meeting which are in our packet and have been posted on board docs if

[00:07:02] there any of the committee members request or suggest any changes or edits now is your opportunity to do so and if there are no suggestions or requests for changes or edits i will entertain a motion to approve the minutes I move to approve the minutes is written thank you miss LaBelle is there a second I second thank you miss me and sealed that motion has been properly moved and seconded all those in favor please raise your hand and say aye aye that motion passes unanimously now we will move on

[00:07:38] to item number four on our agenda ours our action item last week is already a blur our one action item deletion of policy section 8-19 dismissal during the school day which I believe will be presented by Ms. Evans.

[00:07:56] Yes so good evening as you may recall from last week we talked about 8-19 and how it hadn't been reviewed since 2012 because we now have policy 8140 and the associated regulation that goes along with that that addresses the dismissals during the school day and as I spoke last week I shared that we wanted to create a waiver we wanted to get rid of the waiver of full-day attendance because we were seeing inconsistent practices across the division and so we'd like to have a standard operating procedure that would address the waivers of full-day attendance with that being

[00:08:33] said everything that addresses the dismissals is already in our other policies Thank You Ms. Evans do my fellow committee members have concerns or questions I have one question Miss LaBelle last year one of my constituents contacted me because her son who is 18 years old was required by the

[00:09:08] administration at the school to sign out and they said no we have to have a call from your mother getting permission and she was angry so do we have anything in in this program in this policy that states that an adult school person of school age can check themselves out at age 18.

[00:09:34] And is that something that needs to be communicated to principals. So I want to lean on my colleagues the policy 8140 reads that 18 year olds must also follow the dismissal procedures at the school.

[00:09:52] They cannot just check in and check out. however there is a form that is attached to we want to say 8125 where it does give the students the authority the parent must sign that though and present that to the administrator so that their student can have that autonomy. Thank you when when I heard this whole thing I thought well you know we can't just let him go and not tell you if something happened to him on the way home. So I'm glad that this was put in place. Thank you. Yes absolutely. Yes Ms. Mansfield. So okay

[00:10:28] so then okay I know we're not looking at this policy however if you said 81 20 is that what she's just said we think it's 81 25 the other one that references the 18 year olds is 81 40 which you should have a copy of it is okay so I was just looking at here mm-hmm you know at the back I don't see 81 25 and that would be a technical change as opposed to anything else on the 81 40 on 80 40 so when we

[00:11:01] have like our cross graphs and stuff I would think that maybe and I think 8125 was updated after 8140 that's what I'm thinking that would be your problem right that's the why so I have found the form it's the adult slash eligible student declaration form I need to figure out the corresponding policy okay that would be that would be my only suggestion because like miss LaBelle said it can be confusing for some kids and we don't want to just say you know we can't that

[00:11:37] you can check yourself in and out and they need kind of permission still from their parents or at least acknowledgement awareness and acknowledgement so cross-referencing that both on the policy and the regulation 8140 its policy 8025 rights of adult slash eligible students okay that's my only thought about that and I that could be just a technical change we could ask mr. Allen about that that would that would be for 8140 right 8140 mm-hmm and we can

[00:12:11] change that on the reg okay so I was just I'm looking at the policy at policy 8140 that we posted on board docs that y'all posted on board docs for this meeting and I went to that last page to click on the links to the cross-references and the link for 8120 is something is not working about it when I click on that link to 81 20 I get just an error

[00:12:46] message I'm not sure what it's supposed to be but I click on that and it says there was an error processing your request go back and try again any other questions comments okay then I move that we refer the proposed deletion of policy section 8-19 to the full board for its consideration is there a second

[00:13:21] oh second any further discussion no all those in favor please raise your hand and say aye aye madam chair Mansfield are we allowed to suggest that this go to consent at the full board how does that only time we do consent at the full board is for F&O and that is only for contracts so it's a contract and we take it through consent and F&O and then consent again. That's the only time we do

[00:13:58] that. However when we do this for information I can ask if we can go to consent at that time. Thank you for refreshing my memory of our procedural requirements. Okay then with that we will move on to item number five. Our information item are ever popular an ongoing discussion of policy 8155 school assignment. Mr. Dolson the floor is yours. Good evening. So I will make keep this brief so

[00:14:34] we can't get into discussion. The proposed revisions that you see on the slide are ones we've already talked about. I think we've discussed those at length. Specifically on the next slides the committee asked for a further definition of instruction of suitability. So we have attempted between lines 50 and lines 81 to expand on the definition of what instructional suitability is and so specifically we have said instructional suitability is

[00:15:13] the reassignment of a student to a different school when it becomes necessary to provide a more appropriate instructional program that meets the student's academic or academic social or emotional needs instructional suitability is a request by a parent or legal guardian to transfer a student to a non over enrolled school other than the regular school of assignment.

[00:15:34] This transfer is done at the discretion of the school division and may be a result of disciplinary safety social emotional or mental health concerns issues concerning student mental or physical health or that arise due due to a significant life event may be addressed at any time during the year.

[00:15:52] Then we go on to the process of how that can be done. We we do ask that parents exhaust all of the resources at the school and that is outlined in 8155 regulation C.4 so that I do see a typo there yes and they may request then that their school their students are be enrolled to a non over enrolled school. Considerations for that instructional suitability are focused on ensuring the students are provided with an instructional program that better meets their individual and

[00:16:27] educational needs and then we go into the information about transportation not being provided unless specified otherwise in accordance with established transportation policies and procedures and ending that section with special programs such as special education have special procedures for the placement of students mr. Dolson I'm more accustomed to when we include language about

[00:17:02] special programs I am more accustomed to that referring to things like rise or tape or North Star or academies so I to me it's it seems a little bit fusing to say special programs such as special education we can certainly just say special programs which would be in cup all-encompassing and not specify a special education I believe that was in the previous document at the end it was

[00:17:38] online sixty eight and sixty nine I think yes we just moved it down to the end in a discussion with legal we felt like it needed to be separate but we certainly can just take out the reference to special education and just have it as special programs have separate procedures for the placement of students. Well are we are we saying special programs have separate procedures and also special education. Well they do yes special education. Yes so we have to understand that when we're talking about programs and things that are specific to instructional programs and then there are things that are specific to special

[00:18:17] education programming and those transportation allowances are different than instruction with suitability. So I would respectfully suggest changing it to I think I would either special programs and special education or special education services and LCPS special programs have separate procedures and I I, since I've already interrupted you, on line 52, there should be an apartment.

[00:18:56] Oh, yes, I know. The English teacher in me saw that, and I had to just read over it. Thank you. Please carry on. What I can do is we can ensure that we're using the proper terminology.

[00:19:19] I believe it would probably read something like special instructional programs. Yes. I'm going back to the graphic that we presented to you guys during budget season, Where half of the slide was special programs, and then the other half was alternative education and non-traditional schools.

[00:19:41] So, Mr. Dolson and I will go back to that graphic and we'll work with the wording. Certainly, alternative education would not be applicable, but some of the non-traditional programs could be something that would be encompassed with this policy.

[00:19:57] So, we need to make sure that that doesn't mean charter schools, though. Correct. that's not right of this they have their own that is correct and in the next slide I believe we are jumping over to the timeline which we just went through the policy and ensured that the timeline aligned with your request which was to close the special permission portal on March 31st which is

[00:20:32] the end of March and then we will jump over to line 234 to 247 which further explains the process of a principal having the ability to rescind a special permission request and what we did there is we added the line 239 to 243 or actually 45 prior to rescinding special permission the principal shall provide notice to the student and family and afford the student and family opportunity

[00:21:11] to address the concerns this may include a meeting among staff to include the principal or designee IEP 504 case manager it should say if applicable and school counselor notwithstanding that we did discuss changing the timeline is there still language in here that clearly states that the portal is open

[00:21:41] to LCPS employees at an earlier date yes ma'am that would be it would be on lines 289 no would be January 20th so sorry I think I've just someone answered my own question I'm looking at the red line page 7 this subpart 2 which begins on line 290 this is where it specifically refers to LCPS

[00:22:21] employees who reside in Loudoun yes but they it still says they may apply for special permission beginning on the first business day of January and I believe we had discussed moving that a little bit later right so I believe it would be January 20th and my that's how we would we agreed on with the planning office and my Mike I think my wonder is we will have to change that again every year if we keep it that way I know we are doing that specifically because of the attendance zone conversations that you're having.

[00:23:00] And that's what the planning office requested. So my assumption would be if there was not a large number of attendance zones being considered that we would be able to move it back to the first day of January just because of the rollover and what the process that that takes for the planning office to make sure that all of the students based on the attendance zones are rolled to the correct next year's school.

[00:23:24] So it may go back to January 1st but we will certainly put January 20th in here so thank you for that reminder so I may not for right now but I I'm already thinking if there is a way that we can write this paragraph to allow for that without having to re-amend the policy every year but I will we could say on that we could say by the third week of January but I think there would still have to be some some direction for who makes that

[00:24:01] decision I don't know I'll I will discuss with legal Ms. Mansfield. So going back to the what I had requested last time what I see here and in my interpretation of lines 237 is so failure to meet expectations following special permission approval for the upcoming you year may result in principal initiating a warning letter that special permission may be rescinded.

[00:24:31] Prior to rescinding special permission the principal shall provide notice to the student and family and afford the student and family an opportunity to address the concerns. But this is not really giving them that opportunity. This may include a meeting just among the staff to include principal designee IEP 504 case manager and school counselor.

[00:24:56] That's not really that wording doesn't include for me the family which was what I was hoping we would be. right so it says IEP team meeting or in a 504 meeting and then that's also with the family right.

[00:25:14] So they're required participants in those meetings. Yeah they're required participants so but here this sentence makes it feel like it's just this may include a meeting and may I think it should it shall amongst it says it may include a meeting among staff.

[00:25:32] So for me I think that it should be it's kind of how you read it but I could see it going that oh only staff have to meet for the student as opposed to we're giving we're going to give a little warning over here but then we're not going to be including them in this meeting.

[00:25:52] That's what it reads to me. So that was not the intent. It's not at all the intent and that is not our practice. we rescind very few special permissions.

[00:26:09] I know we've shared that with you previously. So the historical data that we have shows that we rescind very few. We and again I would say we coach the school administration. Have you done these things. There's a checklist that they have to go through and many times they have not.

[00:26:27] And once the parents and the student and the administration get together and they have a conversation. I also think that sometimes these conversations are over the phone because parents aren't always able to come into the school and meet. But once that that concern is addressed I would say it's very likely that the student remains at the school because the concern is being addressed.

[00:26:50] So we can certainly add family into this in some ways. But the the whole point was to make sure that we are giving them the support and the resources that they need before they're before they're told that they need to leave and I understand that that's a very small population but my intent in last time was more like an MDR in a way without being an MDR to really make sure mrs. Mansfield on line 243 would it be helpful if it was this may include a meeting with the staff and

[00:27:29] not among I think you need to add family their parents caregivers family whatever you're gonna say there I think they need to be in that sentence this and I think it's I don't think it should be May and this is really only for special education students for me and so that's and maybe so I can see that you could have a family you could have a meeting with the family for kids for gen ed but

[00:28:06] I really do think for special education students I think that you need to have another carve out to be sure so I can see that you may have a meeting including these people with Gen Ed but for special education I think you must have that meeting.

[00:28:27] I am and I apologize for not having not already having a clear suggestion but in listening to the conversation I was thinking at that point on this beginning on line 241 instead of saying this may include a meeting perhaps perhaps we can say students and or families

[00:29:06] may request or if requested by students and families they will be afforded an opportunity to meet with appropriate staff which shall include principal SPED case managers if applicable school counselors.

[00:29:25] I really do think that it needs to be I really I feel like we really should carve out something for IEP students and and the reason I say that is because we looked at the discipline records and everything and there's a high and there is a disparity I mean it's a higher rate of people in special education who are in school suspension all the rest of that and I want to make sure that we carve that out for special education students

[00:30:03] and we're not just and we're doing our due diligence as far as making sure they have the support and resources that they need just like we would do if they got in trouble and were going to be expelled or anything else before we take them away certainly I understand bless you understand those concerns and would not want to be contributing to the disparate rates that we see with special ed students and behavior

[00:30:42] concerns or violating findings of violation of school policies I guess my my concern if we do a carve out here would be potential conflicting results if there is if a student engages if a special ed student engages in conduct for which they undergo the process of being found in violation of right student

[00:31:18] rights and responsibilities there's automatically right the MDR part of that process right students discipline exceeds ten days okay so I guess my concern would be if that process happens and there is an MDR and the MDR concludes this punishment was appropriate in part because the conduct was not related to the disability or to the special ed services that we could end up having an inconsistent and contrary result in this situation right

[00:31:58] late in and if the principal then says well we're gonna rescind special permission because of this violation if you're saying that there is a special carve-out on that rescission process I know I feel like I'm explaining myself terribly but I am hopefully I'm getting across that is my concern is I I am concerned SBAC may come to one conclusion and special permission rescission policy could come to a contrary conclusion about whether the students conduct is or is not caused by the disability is or is not warrant

[00:32:36] whether certain punishment is or is not warranted based on the conduct that's my Ms. LaBelle. Thank you, Ms. Donohue. As a member of the SBAC committee, we often look at whether a student that's brought before us for behaviors has an IEP, has their MDR been reviewed, what were the consequences or the decision of that, the manifest review.

[00:33:14] And then we look at also anything else that might pertain to the behavior prior to making our decision. And one of the things that we include would be anything that might come out of a committee.

[00:33:33] And if I may offer an answer here, if you look at line 242 that we were talking about, the student and family, they will afford the student and family the opportunity to address concerns. I think if we put this shall include a meeting among the staff to include the principal designee, the IEP 504 case manager, if applicable, and school counselor and the student and his family, that would have a report that we would be including in our SBAC decision so that possibly we won't be in conflict if we put all that together.

[00:34:12] and I know we are very consistent on looking at other things that might impact behavior so if I may if it's just a meeting and it's not an IEP team meeting or 504 it can it will not have to be recorded and they don't have to bring an advocate so they will not be allowed an advocate and they're not allowed to record the meeting so I am I think that you if you have I think you need an IEP team meeting or 504 meeting because that has

[00:34:51] particular protections and everything else assigned to it. Ms. Richardson can you weigh in on Ms. Mansfield's statements. Certainly so and I know it's a long time ago right last last fall we brought back some sample letters about how it's a sort of a three-step process really a four-step process so it's that checklist first it's that warning letter which could come with a phone call or a face-to-face meeting, by the time you're getting to that second letter,

[00:35:27] that is when you are bringing the family in to talk about how the student is not meeting the expectations of behavior or academics or attendance as outlined by policy 8155. Mrs. Mansfield, what I hear you saying, if the consideration of a recension is for a student with a disability or one protected under the ADA.

[00:35:55] You would like the language to read that an IEP meeting or 504 plan meeting is required before a principal makes a final decision about rescission. The process that happens for any student where a principal has initiated this process and contacted the Office of Student Services and worked with Mr. Dolson and his team on the letters and communicating to the family is that it's more of a conference it is not a

[00:36:30] required IEP meeting or 504 meeting which is why Mrs. Mansfield has shared that it is not a meeting that can be recorded now you can bring anybody you want to to any meeting so you could bring an advocate I'm not sure that it would be required but you could so as a family you can invite anyone that you would like to participate in any of the meetings with you when discussing your child Mrs. Smith did you have something to add yeah I would say with the exception of an attorney attorneys are not allowed

[00:37:07] outside of an IEP meeting but I think more importantly IEP teams and 504 teams do not take do not consider and make decisions based on special permission so that would be right but an advocate definitely could come to a parent conference but we want to make sure that that that if there's a problem that the supports and everything are being put into place and that is an IEP team or 504 decision and discussion to ensure that all the supports have been in place for the student at the current placement prior to asking to remove a student yes yes so it wouldn't be to make a decision on special permission it would

[00:37:45] just be to review to ensure all services and supports have been in place for the student during the time that the students been there yes Ms. LaBelle this document we say that we want to make sure that everything has been tried prior to making a decision for rescission shouldn't that be covered by making sure that all the accommodations are in place or should we have to enumerate them separately what's your opinion on that.

[00:38:25] Okay earlier here we say that I can find it it says somewhere in here that we make sure that everything's been tried to resolve the issues prior to coming to this meeting or to this point and looking to see if there are IEP accommodations or plans that have or have not been followed, that everything has been tried before we get to this position.

[00:38:57] Do we need to specify that in the section that we're talking about? Because it seems to me that that would be covered in that part portion of the policy I'm afraid if you don't spell things out it's not gonna happen okay I just wanted your opinion on that that's that's my opinion okay and I know I hear what you're saying Miss Smith that we're but wouldn't be a decision on special permission it would be

[00:39:35] a decision on whether or not they're being given their supports or resources if are there other accommodations that need to happen is there other specialized instruction that needs to happen is there an FBA that needs to happen beforehand but something you know to help that that's and if there's not then that's even more evidence for the principal but I also want to protect the students maybe a consideration of where we have initiating a warning letter that special permission may be rescinded trigger the requirement to convene a

[00:40:14] team at that point which is immediately when we're doing a warning then the needs to meet to convene to review the students needs and then what happens after that happens after that I would like to know what vision council's office I would I would like to hear their thoughts about how to address Ms.

[00:40:47] Vansfield's concerns okay so we can ask that but the other thing would be the timeline wondering when do we put kit when do we have kids placed in special programs when does that decision come out for for ought or for ID or something like that when does those decisions come out.

[00:41:20] That really happens throughout the year but are you talking about for anticipation of the next school year they try to make those decisions as soon as possible so we notify parents as soon as possible there are times during the summer that the numbers grow so much that we have to add additional programs but they try to make notification families anywhere between I would say April and then through the summer of their changes. So if if a child is put in a an odd program or something and then but it's after special permission what about their siblings have we is that just

[00:41:57] I mean because one's a choice one's really not a choice to some extent how's that gonna work. We always work with families I mean we've had that come up several times this fall where we have had students to transfer in one sibling requires a specialized program they have a non-disabled sibling we look at capacity at the school and the non-disabled sibling goes with the student that requires the specialized program we work with families on an individual basis we call our schools we work with our principals we certainly want to make sure that we're lessening the burden on a family if one child

[00:42:35] requires a specialized program and the other one doesn't and they request for to attend the same school then we certainly work with families not voting

[00:43:04] on anything today may I continue sorry mr. Dolson yes that's okay the other conversation that you all had last meeting was whether or not to add language in this policy regarding the appeals process and with Division Council's guidance I realize they are not here but it was thought that that That would not be something that we would want to add into this policy because there

[00:43:39] are so many other appeals processes that exist in the school division and it would need to be done through the policy 2350 which is your policy about appeal of administrative decisions. I wholeheartedly agree with that as the owner of this policy as well as a former principal I think we would be confusing a lot of processes that already exist.

[00:44:02] therefore with my help from Miss Carpenter and Miss Mrs. Mason we feel as though in my office we can help contain the length of the appeals process for this policy if we can get board commitment to have the dates already set so we can advertise these dates on our website that if you are applying for special permission and you want to appeal any decision that would be needed from your or the school board.

[00:44:38] These would be the dates and based on the cadence that we receive applications and we respond to those applications you could be afforded the opportunity to meet with the appeals board at any of these dates and that would be public information.

[00:44:56] We have to reserve these rooms up front because the meetings have to be recorded. So it would be incumbent upon the chair to let your colleagues know, well, I realize that, but you are still the chair right now, let the colleagues know that, you know, this would be something that would be an expectation, because that truly is one of the hurdles, is getting board members together during the appeals timeline.

[00:45:29] We do want to make one caveat that if we were to need a mid-March date, which we might, that would be Monday, March 26th, not March 23rd, typo. So I guess what I would suggest. By 2026, I'm sorry, 2026, March 23rd, 2026.

[00:45:47] Is that a part of the process that could happen for the new chair that comes on in January after your organizational meeting is that this is part of, like, what their duties that they need to do. and set up 1 2 3 4 you have 1 2 3 4 5 meetings for the for the school for the school board members and do that organization yeah and I don't know should we put that in a policy or something that that's another school

[00:46:22] board chair duty be because they already have that duty in a way I think we already I already have that duty because I had to put together so yeah I think that just needs to be added to it so during the organizational meeting I think afterwards somebody needs to know whoever that is and say guess what no and I also think and I I do appreciate all of you coming to meet with myself and Miss Carpenter so we can walk we walked many of the board members through the special permission process because you had so many questions about it and I will certainly offer any new board members that education because I think

[00:47:02] it is important and you totally streamline that with the script and everything else. So I think that worked out really well. That is all I have.

[00:47:21] Before we move on. I. Mrs. Griffiths sent me a couple of emails this week with some thoughts about special permission and facts and circumstances she was hoping that we would take into consideration as part of our conversation and consideration of amending policy 8155. I had meant to forward those emails to my fellow committee members prior to today's meeting I have not done that yet but I will if she has not already sent them to you I will

[00:47:55] forward them to to the two of you and Ms. Richardson's assuming that I can forward them directly to you as long as none of us replies all of anything but since Mrs. Griffiths asked for that to be considered I will send her thoughts to you as well and I will and the only other thing that I wanted to say was I don't I have not drafted proposed language yet but one of the things I

[00:48:30] have been wanting to change about this policy since we first started looking at it a year and a half ago ish is it doesn't sit right with me that we don't that we don't ask the families who apply for special permission to identify a reason to be making that and I think that's something that we should consider doing I am planning on presenting an amendment at the next meeting for

[00:49:05] consideration to include language that would make a change of that type so just wanted to put that out there and this is we need to send this out for review Ms. Richardson um yes so it did have to come back as information today and that is action I understand because we've been working on it for quite a long time

[00:49:38] we skipped a step in our policy review cycle so if it is the will of the committee that we work on these revisions that we've discussed today one of which will have to Mrs. Donahue I did hear you say that you were going to consult you were going to consult with LCPS legal counsel then we would be posting it for public information for the standard 10 days and it would come back before you all you have to decide whether it comes back again as

[00:50:13] information or comes back as action but we would post the revisions that we have to date following this meeting and our notwithstanding our item number six on our agenda our next regularly scheduled meeting for this committee I believe is November 6th that is correct but we do have a discussion topic because back in August the committee had requested the consideration of work sessions in September and October we do have a room reserved for October 30th at 4:30 should

[00:50:53] the committee desire to have a work session then the next regularly scheduled meeting is November 6th so I you know I love work session but I I will say the two matters that I thought would be most in need of or would most benefit from consideration and discussion during work sessions were a policy that that we had

[00:51:29] discussed previously that would be a completely new policy that has not in fact been proposed yet so therefore it would be premature I think you have a work session and 8155 which we could talk about indefinitely I think but but I based on the conversations that we've had since August about 8155 I don't know that I it's necessary to have a work session to talk about it but I would

[00:52:05] like the input of my committee members Ms. Mansfield so if we want this to be done our school board meeting is November 11th and so we would have to vote on this by six is kind of late it would be better if it would be voted on in October because the six is when we have our board tours for the next meeting that's when it starts and it's after I've already made the agenda now the board the full board does it and certainly not to remind you of your

[00:52:44] scheduled, but I had forgotten it, so I will remind you. You do have one full board meeting in November, but you are scheduled for two in December. So it, and I know we don't want to push it up to the last meeting before winter break. That is sort of where it fell last year. We were able to work on all of the communications and push that information out to our parents and to our staff members but certainly it is the discretion of the committee that's

[00:53:18] all I wanted to say was that we're coming up close so and I know we want it done before January and then so yeah that's all my thoughts about that it has the possibility of passing beforehand but it's close thank you I think that we

[00:53:57] don't want to put too much in November 6th there's a lot in there anyway that has to go forward if we can get this settled prior to that in other words another work session if we need it and then move it to just you know where we move it to information and then bring it to action on the same meeting that would go quickly.

[00:54:23] There's a lot that we need to finish before the end of the school year in our last board meeting.

[00:54:41] So if we if we don't vote on if we don't vote this out of committee until November 6th is chair Mansfield are are you stating that it could not go on to the agenda for as an information item for the school board meeting the following Tuesday. Yeah because normally what happens is I put the agenda on Tuesday or

[00:55:20] Wednesday and if it's not on the agenda at that point we typically don't do it. Familiar with the usual schedule of those things but I thought I thought I understood that there are certain occasions where if you leadership Dr. Spence knows that certain policies are scheduled to be voted on that they might still nevertheless be added not typically not typically if they haven't been voted

[00:55:55] on before the agenda I we don't typically put it on I don't I can't you know what there's a lot going on in this brain and I don't remember if we've ever really done that before but I don't it's not a typical practice now put anything she wants on the board yes but so yeah we could do that I just I hate doing that as a normal course of business

[00:56:22] and it would have to be a special thing vote on a work session legal's not here I don't know you're really not voting on the work session you're just providing staff guidance as to whether you wish to have it on October 30th or not it's not a vote. So we would still have it for action on November 6th? Is that what you're saying, Ms. Richardson?

[00:56:52] You cannot vote during a work session. Okay, that's what I was asking. So it doesn't really matter. So it is what it is. Why? We had like 10 minutes. You could have just, doesn't matter. All right, so I gather we sort of moved on from discussion of 8155 to our item number six work session, which I think we are agreed is not necessary, so we will not.

[00:57:19] We will be glad to relinquish that date, October 30th. And now we will move on to item number seven, new business. Is there any new business? Can I just make a point of clarity, please? Sorry to interrupt. Yes, please, Ms. Richardson. So we're not going to have the work session on October 30th, so is it the will of the committee that 8155 come back as revised today on November 6th for action?

[00:57:45] Yes, please. Thank you. And after it goes, you said that right after it goes out. It's been a long week. Okay. Thank you for that, Ms. Richardson. Anything else? Ms. Mansfield, I believe you were indicating you may have new business.

[00:58:04] Yeah, and it has to do with what you were talking about earlier, the policy that I thought that we were going to be doing and we're not doing about restraint and seclusion, but it's more, it's the... Not about restraint and seclusion. Well, I know, but it was the not companion to that, if that makes any sense.

[00:58:24] And we came up with some language, and that wasn't liked either, so I don't even know what to call it right now. It was the safe and supportive separation of students. Yes, the safe and separation of students, but people didn't like separation either. And in consultation with legal counsel, because I had drafted a draft policy along with Mrs. Smith, legal counsel felt that that newly proposed policy would have been redundant because we already have I want to say its policy is it 51 20 which I 52 remember I flipped the numbers

[00:58:59] I forgot I do chair Donahue but yes so we have a policy that outlines disciplinary procedures and how things should be handled I am happy to take the draft policy back to legal counsel again if the committee still wishes to see at least a new and separate policy.

[00:59:21] It's already been drafted. Yes please. Sorry I don't know if that's where you were going Ms. Vansfield but I had I had meant to follow up with you about this offline Ms. Richardson and I have not done an in-depth side by side comparison of the proposed policy and the pre-existing policy but my gut reaction when I was advised of that

[00:59:51] switch in intention was that the SBAC policy is a discipline policy. And 5345 restraints and seclusion, as we stated many, many times, is not about discipline. It is about ensuring safety. And I have not really liked the idea of saying, okay, well, then our companion policy to outline the situations that we had discussed while we were revising 5345 that do not fall into the specifically defined categories of restraint and seclusion,

[01:00:29] I don't think that, I think that needs to be separate from discipline because it is ensuring safety. Legal feels very strongly that we should not go forward with that. I will be more than happy to have a lengthy conversation with them about it.

[01:00:47] But I think that we need to talk more about introducing this policy. Thank you for bringing that up, Ms. Mansfield. I'm sorry if I interrupt you. Ms. LeBell. I know you're probably going to hate me for saying this, But I have a question for Mr. Dolson and it has to do with if it's an event that happened this year and I think we need some clarity on it.

[01:01:25] If a student receives permission to attend, special permission, but has done something prior to the, in other words, if a student did something that was against school policy and then receives in the mail a special permission that says, oh, you're accepted. and then it comes out later that this is what the student did after he's received special permission does that mean that he does or doesn't get the special permission.

[01:01:53] I believe you know what I'm talking about. And he being generic and they. So we don't look at discipline. So I'm just going to answer this as a former principal. I would look at it from that instance occurred and this is a new school year so I would not look at that the discipline as a compounding event to preclude a student from having a clean slate a fresh start a you know what this happened I would even say this happened last week and this is a new

[01:02:31] week that's just my professional opinion and kind of how I led my school however there is in policy certain elements of discipline that does require a principal to look at past experiences or past events.

[01:02:50] Thank you I just wondered if there was any clarification in there or if that'll come up as a case by case. And I appreciate that question because we really do not from this policy in and of itself we do not look at discipline as a precipitating piece of evidence that we would allow or deny a student from having access to this policy in particular.

[01:03:17] Okay thank you. I I would like to ask for clarification on so is your question in in those circumstances that you described is your question after special permission has been granted and then prior misconduct comes to light are you asking does the principal of the receiving school are they required to rescind special permission are they permitted to rescind special permission On that basis.

[01:03:56] That was my question. What happens. So your question is is it required or is it. Potentially discretionary if I understand correctly. And Mr. Dolson's answer is definitely not required. Maybe.

[01:04:14] So it's important to understand that you would not have access to a student's record until they become part of your school. So are we. You might not have an answer for this right now. But so are we saying that once the student has been received would it be permissible and appropriate for the new principal at the receiving school hypothetically to then rescind special permission on the basis of a prior conduct no so what what what if I know what we're talking about like

[01:04:51] I yeah if that if so if I'm a principal of a school and it is March and I get notification that Miss Richardson has been approved for special permission going to another school and let's say that Miss Richardson attendance starts to drop or her she becomes tardy or her behavior I as that principal of Miss Richardson currently should have that conversation with her and her family and go through this policy because I have knowledge as her current principal I'm the custodian of her student record right here and now that she is not following she's not following a the school rules but she's also not

[01:05:28] following the spirit of policy 8155 and so in that in that instance that my expectation would be that that principal would have a conversation with mr. Richardson and with her family to make sure that they understand that if this behavior continues the principal could rescind and then once he that principal or he or she receives mr. Richardson he will have access to her attendance from the year prior because it will have been recorded or behavior or any of those

[01:06:02] things is that does any answer your question it does but I think last point that I'm trying to clarify continuing on with your example once Ms. Richardson has started at the new school receiving school if I understand correctly I think what I'm hearing you say is the receiving principal cannot rescind her special permission based on the things that happened prior to her walking in that door. So I would say there are additional instances.

[01:06:37] Yes I would say. Correct I would say in the in the instance that we're talking about let's just use absenteeism that would be something that would be easily seen as a data point for many many years. However long Miss Richardson have been a student we can look at her attendance we can look at her percentage we can look at her tardies so it would not be advisable by me that the first day that Miss Richardson is absent in her new school that the principal rescind special permission that's not fair.

[01:07:06] So I think there is some discretionary professional obligation as a school employee that we are providing a welcoming environment for all of our all of our students. But the principal would not be able to look back and say wow this was a situation that happened the third and fourth quarter of whatever grade we're looking at.

[01:07:30] I would also expect to see notation from that prior principal that had been discussed. so I think what I'm trying to do is and I appreciate what Miss Mansfield said is spell everything out in this policy but also make sure that we're holding our administrators accountable for following this policy and not creating well just because a person is here on special permission we can say you're no longer welcome so I think we we do have to look at the full record if you will and to answer your first question it would not be fair for that receiving principle because that receiving principle doesn't have access

[01:08:09] to Mrs. Richardson's record if we're using her as an example. And sorry, you're a great student all the time. I'm sure Ms. Richardson would never be tardy for any reason. Thank you. Ms. Mansfield. Okay, so another scenario, different scenario with Ms. Richardson. I just want to say happy Bosses Day to Mrs. Richardson.

[01:08:30] So she's already there, and renewals come up. And so there's a renewal that comes up, but they've been accepted. But Ms. Richardson has been accepted from her renewal.

[01:08:49] But Ms. Richardson had issues beforehand, before that happened. So the renewal came up, accepted again for the next year.

[01:09:04] However, there were problems with behavior or absences or whatever. Does that, is Ms. Richardson going to be able to stay there? Because the misbehavior happened while she was on the special permission watch.

[01:09:26] That would trigger the initial letter warning and all the rest of that. Correct. Even though they were already. Yes yes. Accepted. Again renewed. Yes.

[01:09:41] Okay Ms. LaBelle. I think the part that we're looking at is on the red line copy 234 to 238 it says failure to meet expectations following permission approval for the upcoming school year.

[01:10:04] what I was referring to if was if this behavior Miss Richardson occurred prior to the receiving of the special permission but the special permission was received without knowing about your many many absences and I bet I had more than you did.

[01:10:31] So I think that's the part that we were talking about that might need some clarification or that maybe Miss Richard Miss Mansfield was trying to bring up. Yeah again I think we're in the service of students and so I think events happen and we are trying to remediate behavior we're trying to remediate actions we're trying to and so I look at what's at the center of this conversation it's a kid and kids make mistakes and you know what the safest place to make mistakes is in the school because we're going to help you we're going to teach you we're going to reteach you

[01:11:09] we're going to offer you other opportunities. So I look at discipline as an event that occurred you've served your consequence and we move forward. I don't think it's this is just Mr. Dolson speaking I do not think it is right for us as adults to hold kids accountable for something that occurred and if we can if we can give them access to support systems that will ensure that behavior does not reoccur then we're doing right by that kid.

[01:11:39] I think holding back to a month a year two years ago and and holding that kid accountable for something, that's just not good practice. That's just my professional opinion. - I just wanted to add, I believe I heard you say earlier, Mr. Dolson, that when you are considering these matters, you are not reviewing the student's discipline history when you are reviewing a request for special permission.

[01:12:05] - So we look at the whole record, and obviously if that is brought forward to us, and I just also want to clarify that a principal cannot rescind special permission, I as the director am the person who rescinds. The principal brings to me all the information and I think you all know me well enough that I ask lots of questions.

[01:12:23] So it is not a stamp seal of approval just because they've said we ask for the record the data we ask for all of the meeting notes and we may actually ask for a meeting with the family as well and that I have colleagues that have sat in those meetings with me for Miss Richardson has been a part of those.

[01:12:42] So this is not something that we take lightly. Sorry Mr. Gilson I I meant in the initial the initial application for a special permission transfer are you also looking at the entire record of the student at that time. No. OK so that's that's what I was I pardon me I apologize.

[01:13:00] No no I I was probably not being sufficiently clear but to Ms. LaBelle's point whether or not a student engaged in misconduct prior to requesting or receiving an approval of special permission is irrelevant because that is not a factor that you would be looking at that's correct and in to the best of my memory from sitting on the special permission appeals as a board member it is not information that we are provided when we are reviewing appeals from denials of those requests that is correct so it would it could potentially be relevant as to possible rescission but it has no bearing on the initial

[01:13:38] determination yes that's a very good way of clarifying feel like I am closer to understanding appropriately okay no I was I was just our meetings always seem to go longer than not and I apologize for being late the long day at my day job but so I believe that's everything the next item on our agenda is number eight adjournment our next meeting will be November 6 2025 thank you to all of you for being here and get home safely and happy Halloween since we won't be seeing each other on October 30th.

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