Coraggio Consulting
Manassas City Council Retreat 1/24/2025

Date: Friday, January 24, 2025
Place: Manassas City Council, Virginia
Length: 4h 46m (video)
Official meeting video (Wistia / RegionalWebTV): https://fast.wistia.net/embed/iframe/y1eepofq2b

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-17. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:00:01] - All right. - I'm coming up. - Order, Mr. Smithy, phone roll. - Mayor Davis Younger? - Present. - Vice Mayor Wilk? - Here. - Council Member Smith? - Council Member Ellis? - Here. - Council Member Osina? - Here. - Council Member Vasquez-Mona?

[00:00:18] - Thank you. - Council Member Hudson? - Here. - Wyoming's present. - All right, thank you. - Thank you, Mayor. Today, this morning, it's really gonna be about your finances, where we predict and project where we may be able to go in the future, get your direction of where you want to begin with the budget.

[00:00:40] So it's really going to be ACM Bergeron and the Commissioner of Revenue Show, the first half, to try to provide you all the data as you provide guidance for us of how you want us to move forward with building a budget.

[00:00:57] With that, we'll turn it over to ACM Bergeron. I'm not saying show. I don't have a show today. Oh, Eric, I already got some news. Good morning. Morning. Alright, some of this is going to be a little bit repetitive because we've done it in a couple other meetings, primarily the audit presentation and my annual financial report, so we've covered a bunch of this, so if you have any questions as I talk through it, I'll kind of go fast so we can move along, but please let the Mayor know.

[00:01:32] the audit. So we just closed a year. We're in the middle of a different year, and we're preparing for another year. So 24, 25, 26 is what we've got going on today. 24 audit results, as you heard from the auditors, it was clean audit opinion, no weaknesses or findings, no issues. We maintained the 20% fund balance with the general fund, which is $32 million, and we lapsed a surplus into capital reserves so it was above and beyond the 32 million per policy goes into capital reserves

[00:02:07] that's primarily driven by the large amount of interest earnings you've had in 24. i say year to date capital reserve balance is 23 million because that changes you'll see one number in the financial statements and then because that was june 30th july 1 as you know you drew that down to purchase some property so the year today as of today is 23 million dollars in your capital reserves um and that brings us to the budget highlights um here are the things that we spent july one basically for capital reserves these are some of the big things in your budget

[00:02:45] purchase of marcellar the eda's purchase of mathis um you kept your tax rate flat combined with the levy and the general rate. It's $1.26. And that included a 3% increase to the schools, which had the $1.5 million that you added for salaries in the base. So that was in the base, and then you increased 3% on top of that. And then you did a significant enhancement for staff benefits and compensation. And if you recall, in one of the budget work sessions,

[00:03:21] We said that, remember we added the $1.5 million we came up with to enhance the salaries and benefits, and half a million dollars was sitting in a contingency until we were at some point in this year to analyze what we needed to do to keep pace with the rest of the region.

[00:03:41] I don't know, Doug, if you wanted to talk on any of that now, or let me keep going, or say anything, or should I say anything? I think for clarity is that there's a half million already pre-budgeted to make additional enhancements to your compensation to your staff.

[00:03:58] If you recall, we made it the critical decision that we were not going to do it all at once because we really wanted to sit back and make sure we were in a good position financially throughout the year.

[00:04:14] We have been. Things continue to move forward as we had hoped. So one of the considerations we are looking at is that before the end of this budget year, such as on June 30th, should we go ahead and jump out on top of this and finishing that up, and I'm going to call it a round or two, with a 1% COLA or not.

[00:04:41] So we're still evaluating that and getting the data from our surrounding jurisdictions of what exactly they are doing in the current budget. so we can keep pace, and part two, which will be at the end of today, is what are they doing for next year as well.

[00:04:58] So, we have it there as a contingency, unspent, kind of dedicated to give us, again, just a jump start. Okay, thank you. This is my mayor. Just to make sure the 3%, it costs $1.5 million for all the staff at the school.

[00:05:23] No, no, no. So the 3%, sorry if this is confusing, the 3% increase was on the total transfer to the schools increased by 3%. But that 1.5% was now added to that transfer, and then we increased on top of that.

[00:05:44] That 1.5% she's showing is that money that you and Vice Mayor Tabeski work with this resort. And maybe that's confusing. So I know we always try to do 3%, right, for the school increase.

[00:06:02] So my ask is, what's the percentage with the 1.5%? Oh, I got you. i don't know off the top of my head i do have that in one of my spreadsheets do you want me to i can get it whenever the three percent is the number it's the appropriation of the schools for last year plus the 1.5 and then three percent of that total that's what she's asking yeah she's asking what that percentage would that would have made it a four percent or four what is that number over what they would have got so we'll get that yeah i will as soon as i sit back down i will get

[00:06:38] I appreciate it like that, but it wasn't specific something that we gave to us or mine. And then that's just for hosting. That's your total operating budget, including the school's total budget is $486 million, And the CIP is $60 million, including the schools for FY2025.

[00:07:11] So those are the highlights from the budget that we're currently in. Getting ready, just wanted to remind everyone of the calendar and put it in colorful format, a little bit different format of what's upcoming for '26. We're set to present the proposed budget on the 24th.

[00:07:30] And then you start right away on the 26th with work sessions. There's 11 total work sessions. We have five dedicated to council requested topics that you can have if you need them or cancel like we did last year, but there's a significant amount built in there for any topics you wish to discuss.

[00:07:53] Determine the average tax rate. There are some different dates we can do that on the 5th or the 12th. if you're ready to do that there are some legislation changes allowing for a little bit more flexibility in the date we have a town hall and I believe the but the topic was going to be budget on the 17th per your adopted calendar the school work session is the 26th public hearing the 28th and then after that you'll have a final work session as normal to clear any items coming out of

[00:08:27] public hearing first reading second reading thank you so to clarify because I know it seems to come up every year and not only so I'm clear but more importantly our residents are clear looking at March 5th or 12th for the advertised tax rate so in the past at least the time that I short time I've been on council for four years here. We've adopted a tax because we are still working on the budget.

[00:09:06] There's a lot we're still doing at this point. We have, when I say traditionally, I'll say we have in the past adopted a tax rate, I don't want to say higher, but it is not necessarily the tax rate that, one, matches what the city manager has proposed. Like last year, we chose a tax rate that I believe was two cents higher.

[00:09:34] I may be off of that. Oh, for the advertising. Yes, for the advertising. But it was not the same as the city manager's proposed budget, right, which is a working document, not the final document.

[00:09:52] And so we've done that, and I believe, at least my understanding has been that we do that so that as our discussions go, we, if needed, have some leeway to make adjustments if we had to along the way uh in that regard and what i know has happened in the past is that well that that the word seems to get out that that advertised tax rate is the final rate of our budget which has not been the case there am i correct in my

[00:10:28] correct yes that's your not to exceed rate the rate you advertise is something that you cannot go over, but you can go below. And typically, from what I've seen, you have gone below what was advertised. Okay. It's not an adopted rate, it's an advertised rate. And we do that, just to summarize, we do that for two reasons. One is for exactly what you said. We build a budget around what the city manager's budget is going to be in that rate. But then that

[00:11:02] gives you flexibility if you wanted to enhance services beyond what the city manager recommends for whatever reason it gives you flexibility to increase that revenue but more importantly number two as you can see from the calendar especially this year with the new federal administration in place there's a lot that could happen between the 24th and June 9th that could impact us financially so again that gives you contingency flexibility to

[00:11:38] make those adjustments that is the unknown and as you will or there is a process that you have to go through to set the real property tax rate the problem is that after you advertise theoretically you can adopt the hiring but you have to start that process from the beginning and there's not time to complete it by the deadline by which you have and that's why you can go lower but

[00:12:15] practically you cannot go oh very good just again because I know this is being recorded. I know folks will be watching. I'm sorry. Thank you, ma'am. Okay. Yay to the fun stuff.

[00:12:39] Okay. So your three biggest tax revenues that aren't based upon an assessed value, which we'll talk to Tim in a few minutes, that we like to talk about the most are sales tax, meals tax, and the B-fold tax. All of the other taxes that are not based on assessed values are not a material dollar amount to your overall revenue stream. And they typically, and I don't project

[00:13:16] them to next year, increase substantially. So it's sort of just one goes up, one goes down, and they all even out in the end. These are the three big ones we like to talk about. tax. So we did not, in FY24, make the budget. I don't know why, but we came in just slightly under. I do think, looking at this year's, that we will make budget, and I do think at this point we can increase slightly the budget by, I said, oh, thanks, Sarah, $260,000 additional

[00:13:52] revenue for FY2026. I'm cautious about going any higher than that. Oh, sorry, I'm still I'm cautious about going any higher than that because one of the months we have in, we have five months in to date, one of them the first month was abnormally high, don't know why, but a possible outlier.

[00:14:15] But I do still think we will make budget in 25 and that we can raise it slightly. I don't want to get too far out there in case it doesn't come in as projected, so I think that's a pretty decent estimate so far. I mean, I'll have another month coming in before budget presentation, so we'll see how that looks.

[00:14:34] But we do at this point have five months in, so not too – and we did not come in that significantly under budget. It was really – it wasn't material, but it was something when I was presenting to the credit rating agencies that they did ask a question.

[00:14:51] But, I mean, it was within $100,000, so it wasn't anything material. Meals tax. continuing to do well we exceeded budget slightly in 24 so it looks if you can see the chart the budget to actual chart it looks like we're possibly catching up budgetary budget to actual wise i think we'll probably come in right at if not a little over in this current fiscal year we have

[00:15:26] six months of that data in and we can project about a four percent increase which is also coincidentally i know two hundred and sixty thousand dollars of additional revenue for 26. that does continue to be a stable revenue source stable inclines i don't know that it's going to keep increasing i think the rate of growth is is flowing slightly but not nothing to be concerned

[00:15:52] about um b poll so in fy 20 which one was it 23 okay between 20 so you can see these green bars were on the rise and then i don't know what happened in 23 we took a dip in revenue so i came to you at this time last year and said i'm going to recommend a reduction in this um based on that trend. So then 24 came in a little bit higher. So I'm wondering if there were some timing

[00:16:27] differences between the two fiscal years in payments. Possibly, I don't know, but we did come in over budget and an increase in FY 2024. I think we will still be good. These aren't due until March, so I really have no information to go on other than actuals from prior years. I do think they will come in on budget this year and we can budget a small increase for next year, $110,000. I do always worry about this one and how much is generated

[00:17:02] from construction-related activity to data centers. For a while we had, like, the drop-off could have been that that ended and then we picked up data center construction. So where we will end up lying overall when all is said and done. I don't know. So that's why we budget a smaller increase just in case. And if you do recall, we raised some of the rates to match the county within that stream in FY 2025. So we will see in about March how that all ends up shaking

[00:17:36] out with the changes and whatever comes in this year. So those are the three big revenue sources. That's all good news. Last year I had one event, budgeting a decline, so this is all good news. Still some caution, as I said, in sales and be a poll, but nothing really to panic about.

[00:17:58] My ask is, and I know you won't have it, but I would have been looking for an answer. Are these higher or back to normal, like before COVID? Because 19, 20 years was COVID, so I'm wondering if you were affected by that, that's why you know they were there so my answer is are we back on the normal you know flow as prior to COVID-19 yes yes and we did not actually take as much of a revenue hit on the meals tax side

[00:18:36] as we had projected to be honest with you we really didn't lose too much revenue during COVID we were really fortunate but yes we should be back on a steady implied post-COVID the the 20 and 21 are COVID yeah but we should it looks like we're good and it's usually like a four to five percent increase annually more looking like four now than five but some pretty good revenue generation in there. Some of the policies that we in the state put in place during COVID

[00:19:12] was actually very successful for the city of manassas compared to our regional parks we did substantially better than they did and and you can see we actually budgeted we took decline to the budget because we were anticipating something not good and that it's not hasn't panned out so we're now we were we've been able to suddenly incline increase the budget as well very fast that He told you it was going to need you.

[00:19:49] No, just flip. Yeah, you should go ahead and just flip. Okay, there. Okay, so all in all, things that are doing well, the meals tax, machinery and tools tax, because you have that 4% increase every year, which amounts to roughly $250,000 increases every year.

[00:20:16] Interest earnings are still doing well this year, not as well. Now we're starting to see, so roughly like 5.5% earnings July 1, December's we're down to about 3.5%. So that's definitely doing what we thought it would do, which is not going to be as great.

[00:20:39] I do think we will end the year probably, if you saw in my quarterly report, I'm still predicting $8 million for this year. Going forward, I have, again, I have no idea what's going to happen, what will happen with rates, or any changes in the overall economy yet.

[00:20:57] But that still is a really good revenue source, and we'll probably end the year with, I'm guessing, $8 million again. Areas of caution, I talked about the business license tax and the sales tax and why I was cautious on those. Nothing to worry about, but just things I continue to monitor.

[00:21:14] Obviously, I really don't know what to say, but we always have state and federal threats. We will see things coming. I don't know what or how much, but I suspect something. We'll see some changes with changes in administration, as we do with every change in administration.

[00:21:33] I just don't know what they are yet. We always have threats from the state every year. That's always up there. Now, your other three huge revenue sources are your real estate tax, personal property tax, and now we have up here for discussion, data center tax.

[00:21:51] Those are all huge revenue sources or potential huge revenue sources that are based on assessed values. And I am going to ask Tim to come up now. While he was strolling out there. Yep, strolling. Stroll.

[00:22:07] If I might ask a question, actually for our ICM here, I think. So, state brett, could you fill us in, if you're aware of anything, you know, in previous years, like last year in particular, but in previous years, there have been serious attempts to do away with the local share of the sales tax, for instance.

[00:22:34] And then, you know, replace it, the General Assembly would allocate money, but then that would be a decision every year and so. What, if anything, that you're aware of legislatively on the state level has been introduced that might have some traction that affects these revenues?

[00:22:51] I think the key word there means that they have traction. So there's lots on the table that people don't know if they have any traction or not. So as an example of what I just shared with you this week, the revenue, not only from speed cameras that would then go to the V-doubles that were possible, there are some discussions on the outside, even photo red light money.

[00:23:16] I'm just more knowledgeable on the public safety side. There are some water bills that are on the table that could cost you money, not necessarily take funds away, but some of these programs that could end up costing you capital funds going forward.

[00:23:35] So I'll have to get a better grip. To be honest with you, I don't have a full list. There's a lot. There's a lot of discussion about taking revenues. If you go back to our VML list, all those concerns, some of them revenue, all of those are still on the table.

[00:23:53] I have not been informed that any of those have been taken away at this point. So with us, if I might continue for a moment, with us going down next week, Thursday for DML's legislative day, would we turn to our lobbyist or whoever appropriate for those of us, especially who are going down, have a short one-pager of just, if we do have any time to have a serious talk with our delegates or their chief aide or what have you say, these are the three we're concerned about or something of that sort of thing.

[00:24:31] that we can kind of be focused on along the way for those of us don't yes so there are two two things for that so uh a we are we normally try to provide you an actual list from our tom dick and then also that day if you remember some of the uh introduction and committees at the beginning from dml they will start directing the local leaders hey you need to get over and watch this one we need we need members of our elected bodies to run across it and get into this hearing because it's on the table it's got a lot of traction so we'll get it two ways we'll get it

[00:25:09] from mr tom dick and then we'll get it from bml hey we need urgent action on these matters as well so we sure get it two ways all right that's all thank you yeah and also another um threat that that comes up every year, Tim and I were just talking about, is the state threatened people.

[00:25:29] It hasn't gone anywhere, but if that were to go away, that's over $5 million down the street, and that's always an issue. And from something I'm aware of at the federal level, that's a big deal, is the threat to tax-exempt municipal bonds, not allowing local governments to sell their debt tax-free, and that's a threat would cost money. We do lobby that with GFOA. They have a whole federal liaison

[00:26:02] center in BC that lobbies for local government issues, finance issues, to the feds, but that is something that's talked about. In a while back now they removed the advanced refunding option from local governments and never brought it back, but that means it's basically a refinancing option to save money, and that hasn't come back, so this is another hit for tax exemption, for debt, not selling, we just sold tax free

[00:26:40] debt, so we don't have any for a few more years, so we have some breathing and then that, but that's a reality that may happen as well, that I'm aware of. I love how other governments take away utility for us to create revenue.

[00:27:02] Okay, we'll start with real estate. Again, not all of our work is done. As some of you know, I am advertising for a new residential assessor. So I am down a third of my assessors when you only have two out of your three.

[00:27:22] So we're a little bit behind on doing things, but my one full-time residential center is doing a wonderful job that she's nearly done. Our early numbers for residential is probably going to be a little above 6% of an increase for residential.

[00:27:48] A lot of that will be on the south side. We break the city into two sides, the south side and the north side. it's basically the tracks. We have some overlap from one to the other depending on what sort of buildings there are there. The north side is about done and the south side is where we lost our assessor and Ruth is working diligently to get that done. She's about three-quarters of the way done. That is going up a little bit more than the north side probably. Again these are all very

[00:28:21] preliminary she hasn't gotten her numbers done so residential could increase above six percent maybe seven percent your commercial isn't going up as high maybe three to three and a half percent but remember that your commercial is about a third of your total value most of our value is in residential um i think it's it's in billions four point nearly five billion dollars in real estate

[00:28:57] uh value to 2.4 billion in uh commercial value so the numbers of increase on residential is more impactful than on commercial so i'm estimating nearly six percent total increase in value again south side is only three quarters of the way done so that will uh have the opportunity to change on that but it is more than we had expected earlier um and uh some of the south side georgetown

[00:29:32] south is increasing dramatically um they're just selling higher and uh so that's going to be difficult if you ever sell your house in georgetown south you'll be thrilled with us uh if you have to pay the taxes in georgetown south maybe not so much uh condos on the south side are also going up some of them uh above the same as uh georgetown south so that's where we are with those numbers on real estate so far i'm you know cautiously

[00:30:05] optimistic that it could be pushing six percent overall so um do you have any number i can do the multiplication six percent of whatever we were at last year it's probably generation of revenue probably four and a half million dollars probably probably

[00:30:48] our total value is about 2.4 billion for commercial and 4.95 billion for residential you know uh three years ago when i got into this and i'm looking at billions it's just hard to believe that we have you know 7.35 billion dollars worth of real estate anything else on that okay uh personal property cars um they've like i told you at my presentation at the meeting they are

[00:31:30] declining properly as it seems and those are your used cars decline all but a couple of years when When I first get into office, and yeah, it was a good timing for me, they decline.

[00:31:48] But your new cars raise your revenue. And so we're still working on that. I'll be sending my numbers to Munis now, which sends them to J.D. Power, which now sends them back to me.

[00:32:03] So this is my third year of a different format that has been dictated by the industry. So we'll see how that works. But when you look at new car values, they are extraordinarily high.

[00:32:23] So anybody that's buying a new car, selling a $15,000 car and going out and buying a $60,000 car, that I anticipate to raise revenue. How much of that, I don't know that's gone on yet. Those numbers are not in. But I would anticipate the increase to be what it was before COVID, just a slight increase in revenue.

[00:32:46] While people that keep their cars their tax should be going down or that should be I mean they just they just are the Values of used cars are dropping not like you know not off the table, but they are lower So if we keep the tax rate the same their taxes should reduce new cars They're getting they're getting stuff because I mean those numbers are very very I think the average car right now is $45,000 or more you have the average And those are just big numbers.

[00:33:21] So it just all depends on how many people have purchased new cars. - So all in all, what that leads to is we will end up budgeting some sort of an increase in that revenue source after we keep looking through these numbers.

[00:33:37] I don't think it's a decline. I think it's some sort of an increase. - And hopefully, like I told you in my presentation, now that we send our numbers to the assessing source March we'll get those back sooner than we used to because in years and nothing against commissioners doing this in years past where they sent it in July because it was always just a little bit up a little bit up a little bit up you know the revenue and so it was no big deal people in Diane's position were

[00:34:12] able to just budget just a little bit up and then COVID hit and and I came into office all at the same time and they just went through the roof and now prices of new cars are going through the roof so everything's just a little bit different now so there was no problem with them sending their file in in July because we kind of knew what was going to happen because it always happened that way but that's why I've moved it up to doing it in March and again it's a little bit more work to my people but we'll be able to give these folks and

[00:34:49] and then you guys are a little better number and we'll be able to so we'll come in with the proposed budget with a little bit up an estimated number based on trend analysis and then once we'll come in in the middle of the budget cycle if there's any drastic change up or down to that then we'll let us know and use cars we get the industry's uh estimations and we had those in the coveted year as well what we didn't understand was that people traded a lot of cars that year too. That's why our numbers went up so much. It wasn't used cars. We knew what the used

[00:35:25] cars were going to be when it was reported to you early in April, but it was above that. People bought new cars as well and so that raised our values even more. Somebody does. How many cars? 32,000, 30,000, 32,000 I believe in the low 30s.

[00:35:57] you know if you ask questions i don't have written down

[00:36:16] all right um any other questions on that we want to move to something else are you going over this wrong yeah that's okay uh i will okay um once i'm told - In what we generate, we factor in collection rate and reap rate.

[00:36:46] - Tax revenue, property tax revenue, FY24 is 108 days. - Oh, between the two, the fire and rescue, too, and general fund?

[00:37:04] - Yes, I was doing a general fund factor. - Okay, all right, data science, I don't know.

[00:37:20] Six, seven weeks ago, we got in contact with our current data center, John Godwin. They were quite helpful. They were quite forthcoming. Last year, even more so, that's how we were able to do the real estate assessment based on cost.

[00:37:42] Last year, I asked if my team could do a tour of the facility and get some information. They don't have to give us any information until April 15th. what they put into that building behind closed doors.

[00:37:59] They don't have to file until April 15th. Three weeks ago, I got a letter back from one of the head honchos, and he said that, you know, we would love to have a video conference or a phone conference.

[00:38:19] What he's telling me there is that he doesn't want us touring the place, which is understandable. I've got no problem with that. That was three weeks ago, so I agreed to that right away. gave him dates that all of my people would be available quite a few days didn't hear it from them following week i you know how you doing you know i haven't heard from you yet but we're available these days taking off the dates that have already passed didn't hear from anything

[00:38:47] sent the same letter last week uh nothing until yesterday yesterday uh we set a date for the 30th of january at 10 a.m we're gonna have a video conference i'll have my auditor there my commercial assessor there, my business personal property tax person there, and my chief deputy there.

[00:39:11] And we're going to have a discussion how much information they're going to be forthcoming with. I don't know, but that will be, I was hoping that that meeting would happen before I'm standing here, but it didn't. So, but I've done research with Loudoun County on this thing called the World Wide Web. I've done some research. A building of the size we have on Godwin, they can put $200 million worth of computers in there, or they put $50 million worth of computers.

[00:39:48] So, I mean, there's such a wide range for me to try and give you an estimate of what kind of personal property tax they're going to be paying. It's basically impossible to be accurate it or have a sense of accuracy. It is a somebody built the building and is leasing it to a single user. So there's one company in there. Most of your computers in a data center are

[00:40:22] leased. So we will not be billing the owner of the property. The owner of the company that's in there will be leasing. We'll be billing the leasing company. It's the way that works. So, what we've got to do is get that tax return by April 15th. I have looked at our local larger companies. We usually get their tax return early, March, February, March. So, hopefully that will happen as well, because to budget what the tax revenue will be for that data

[00:41:01] center is difficult for business personal properties for computers. It's not difficult, which is not possible until I get some information from them. The real estate is much simpler. We know what that value is, and that value was valued last January as well.

[00:41:21] So on the Godwin property, that's not going to go up a whole lot. It is going to go up, but not like it did last year. The other buildings are not all there yet, so there's not going to go up like the one on Godwin did yet either.

[00:41:39] So it's all just a waiting room, And I wish I had more information for you. I wish I could tell you that they're going to pay $4 million in taxes or $1 million in taxes. Whatever it is, I wish I could tell you, but I can't because I just don't know. And hopefully they don't wait until April 15th to give us some solid numbers.

[00:41:58] Because that's going to be late for possibly a big number. Possibly. I don't know. So it's one company that owns all the equipment, but they lease all of that equipment. So we have to get the numbers from the leasing company.

[00:42:14] Is that right? No. The company that's in there, they'll file their tax returns of what's in there. And the leasing company has to do that as well. But they'll be, so they don't own anything. And I don't know how they do that either.

[00:42:30] Because after they, you know, they're supposedly refreshing their computers every four years or so. What's a leasing company do with used data center computers? Which luckily I don't have to know. But it's just odd. So the numbers will come from the company that is leasing them.

[00:42:49] and then we will build a leasing supply. So they just close who they're leasing that. So it sounds like there is a good balance. Oh, we'll get the number. I just want the number today. And if they don't, I mean, you do an audit, right? And we're not going to have the problem.

[00:43:04] These people have been very forthcoming, very helpful. I don't anticipate any problem with them whatsoever. And if they don't file until April 15th, that's no problem with them. with them you know that's all legal after April 15th but they won't be it won't be these guys they're they're they're good at what they do the bigger companies they they know already they want to get this done and out of their way too and so hopefully hopefully it comes in they have another data center somewhere else that company or just the only one where you could compare what

[00:43:40] why did you compare because half of it could be offices and you know it just that's the thing, I can take the 168,000 square foot building and look at another data center that's 168,000 square feet. Well, that's what it's going to be.

[00:43:55] Well, not necessarily. So it's difficult. And then also you have to decide what's part of real estate and what's part of personal property. You know, they've got chillers and all sorts of things that we don't understand, floors that are raised, but those raised floors are stuff that's installed permanently.

[00:44:18] That's not personal property. That's part of real estate, and you have to try and decipher which is which, and I don't know what they've got in you. I know what the building is, and they helped us out with the cost of the building.

[00:44:33] They did last year. The building was very forthcoming. That's why we were able to raise the assessment as accurately as we did. But now, that's still gone up as well this year. Basically, I hate to stand here and just tell you I've got nothing for you, but I really don't you know as far as the personal property side and hopefully hopefully they put in two three hundred thousand dollars with computers and that's totally possible I mean some of these are the numbers are just ridiculous you know bigger than the city budget they're putting in there and computers and some

[00:45:11] of these data centers and and that you know depending on what your tax rate is you know that's that's a large amount of money but you also have to remember if they if they buy or they lease 500 million dollars worth of computers that that's too big of a number but just for we're not going to be taxing five hundred million dollars then the depreciation goes into effect soon as they take it out of you know the Apple store so it comes out of the Apple store the

[00:45:37] depreciation starts and it cuts it dramatically right off that question to me right up my alley does AWS once they are operating three data centers in the city do they have to obtain a business license from the city for that operation we're working on that and then yeah are they required to report yes three or two

[00:46:16] are they gonna have three there's three buildings I you're right they're there they're only in right now operating tubes okay well I be that as it may but so then do they have to report to the city the revenue they generate at each building we have to be very careful on that there is code out there that everything has to be done on cost not income generated but no for business license the incentives are going to be tricky okay yeah I believe so but we're

[00:46:54] still working on it okay so do we know the one operational one that obtained a business license? I have to check. I'm not 100% sure. And are the operationals? I don't

[00:47:08] know. I don't know any of that because they haven't told us they are. It's just a warehouse though, right? That's what they are for equipment. They're not really. It's a data center and there's different definitions and there is a line there. But a warehouse stores stuff and a data center stores information and there is a difference.

[00:47:39] Well, now you've got to realize that the company that owns that building, they're leasing the building to the one person. They're making money on that. And that's basically... And it's several leases. Or just one.

[00:47:57] Just one. They're still leasing it to that one company. And that's how the income approach works on any commercial property. It's not necessarily the income the owner of the property can make by leasing it. It's a large consideration of that.

[00:48:12] yeah so this gets you touch on depreciation item I want to raise not necessarily for an answer but to start a discussion I remember correctly the appreciation schedules of equipment and data centers is four years four years down to the bottom number yeah not to zero right but I mean to your point it's a play so so the amount of revenue you get from a data center year one of the

[00:48:47] equipment year two will be 50% of year one also much a little bit more than that yeah so from an ongoing budgeting perspective city you don't want to be in a situation where you got peaks and valleys for what's going to end up in your second third or fourth largest revenue stream and I don't know what other localities have done this but I think we need to think of a mechanism or

[00:49:23] math mechanism. This is a straight line once the data center is in place. We can't determine when they're going to replace equipment. We can't be behind the curve in our budgeting because obviously we're doing long-range forecasting and we've got to have a reasonable estimate looking out into the out years. So having, you know, picking a point, whether it's the midpoint and to at least to try to smooth without the curves in the budgeting perspective, I think, is something we need to explore.

[00:50:01] This is new territory for all of us, but otherwise, you know, AWS postpones their replacement schedule by one year and you've got a $3 million missing in the budget.

[00:50:22] You've also got to realize we're not dealing here with, I'll go to my trackers, you're dealing here with technology and in five years i mean in 20 years ago we couldn't afford that ipad in front of you but the prices have dropped so drastically that now you can't you know and you get so much more for so much less what's going to happen five years on computers in data centers from the the talks i've had with others uh who are much more murdered at this than i am

[00:51:02] they don't think there's going to be a whole lot of differences probably in the next 10 to 20 years but that doesn't mean it won't be they might not come through you know and and you know my phone there would have put somebody on the moon in 1969 um so what's going to happen in 10 years five years are all these data centers going to be you know instead of having 500 million dollars in computers in there is it going to be you know 50 million and because the prices came down because technology went so far we got to be careful all of that so I'm not sure how you're going to budget for that others are doing it just you know budgeting the

[00:51:42] money they've got coming in right now but you've got to have somebody looking to the future of the next two years you know what's coming down the pike and if it is something is coming down the pipes you're gonna have to adjust your budgets accordingly you definitely don't want to get into a condition for saying where we're increasing the budget and then decreasing the budget.

[00:52:07] It's better to have those peaks and valleys on the actual side than it is in our budget projected. And just a funny story, if I might interject. Not funny. We'll find out if it's funny. Well, it's not funny, but it is so challenging. I actually have a former colleague from here who worked in Loudoun, and her sole job became figuring out data center revenue.

[00:52:30] And it was so unfun that she left that position. but is there something that says because the volatility of data center revenues we know is going to evolve we essentially take those funds and place them I guess all the books almost into

[00:53:03] sunk fund and you know a secondary capital reserve in that you therefore draw a steady amount back to the general fund and the capital reserve fund and there's a kind of accommodated depth What I wanted to say is that you know at the end of the day I think we have a very good number an exact number I'll be more comfortable for us to keep looking at those peaks whenever they come

[00:53:36] more as a one-time funding or like the way we dealt with the ARPA fund and it's no different than what he's talking about I mean whatever goes you know that's fine but my concern is that if we you know even if we were looking at this look at how much you know the upgrades or changes are delayed or all the construction is non-deliver on time and it takes more months and that will be affecting you know if even if we were trying to go down to be on point on when

[00:54:13] that revenue is coming it still can be delayed by a year or more so that's my concern and I do believe that technology will get better but data center needs better technology than we can have so they still are going to be spending in the best and the fastest and you know like with the strengths that they're within their industry so um i guess i'm a little bit more contemporary for that worry about that but they still have to be up up to speed and on in front of the technology and expanding the money but i you know i will say um maybe uh you

[00:54:51] know looking at flounder and other places they have experience and how they have you know um work with it. I truly believe the best way to think about them as a one-time funding are all increasing the returns until we have a place to reach them for our time.

[00:55:16] I would tell you I'm very pleased to hear this conversation going in the direction that it is. I have a concern, not really our concern, that some of our neighboring jurisdictions are, i'm going to use the word living for today and when the bottom falls out of this that falls back on our taxpayers residents um so this is very good discussion to hear that you're putting your my stupid saying your toes in the water here to get a feel for this before you cash in or anything

[00:55:52] so the bottom will fall out one way or another and then then you're going to have to either make a lot of cuts or make up that revenue difference on the backs of your residents so this this is a very i'm very pleased with this conversation i think it gives us a staff a little bit of breath to go okay we're not cashing in everything in one year i live for today so something you all this is something you all do very well as evidence in our credit rating agency you don't live beyond

[00:56:28] you're mean for for the moment like some of these other jurisdictions are and have to make drastic changes up and down year after year so I applaud you guys for that funds go in a capital reserve fund the interest earned on that does that go back to the general fund or just compound in a capital reserve fund okay I'm just being funny now, can I pull you on that on our page highlights?

[00:57:00] Yes, you all have been very good at that, that's what we want to say. You all have been very good at that. Oh, we all have to say to everybody. All the stars for everybody.

[00:57:16] We do actually allocate interest certain ways, and because the capital reserve fund is in the general fund, it would remain in the general fund. So like when we sell bonds for the bonds we sold for the school, interest earned on that will go to the school.

[00:57:39] School. Not one school. I see. Okay. So we do what we do allocate. So a capital reserve is in the general fund. Sorry, I wish I had more. I really do.

[00:57:58] Hey, we've got 11 work sessions you could be at. Well, hopefully after Thursday I'll have more information, but it all depends on what they decide to give us. You just have to close your muscles. My muscles come into play on April 15th. I don't have any muscles right now.

[00:58:17] Wear your husband's football. That's all I own, sweetheart. all right can I continue well you know I gave you the form there I had sent you all letter I guess warning you about this the new the new way the assessments have to go out is that the number on here and $1.21 is just a number it's not

[00:58:50] the real number. We have to, by code now, put the tax rate on here that would keep our revenue citywide flat from real estate, not including new construction. So that rate has to go in there. And you see the asterisk there, and it tells you what that means. We had some guidance from other commissioners and stuff, and we changed some of the wording

[00:59:23] here and we put citywide assessment here so that hopefully, hopefully people would understand that that's not, that number will not necessarily keep their, would keep their tax bill flat.

[00:59:39] It would keep the city's revenue from, the revenue from real estate flat. Ma'am, somebody might have a question. it's not a question you and i spoke earlier right about this data this is a new data point that we have not discussed so correct me if i'm wrong what we are discussing today and how the commissioner has presented it is a flat revenue projection we've talked about in the

[01:00:17] passed only two data points, flat tax bill and a flat tax rate. So this is a third data point we're putting into the mix of discussions that we've had in the past. Does that make sense? What's the third thing? You've never discussed a flat revenue projection.

[01:00:44] in the past you've asked about a flat tax bill we've got we've given you data on a flat tax rate this is a different way of looking at saying this is what it would take so you have no additional money coming in total not individual because you know total total city revenue from real estate

[01:01:21] not individual because somebody's uh assessment might go up somebody's might go down without that but so it would it would be the total not yours individually yeah so when you um if you did the the flat tax bill, that would be towards the individual, making sure the tax bill didn't go up.

[01:01:44] I'm not talking about the individual. - Well, if you're doing that, you'd have to have a different tax rate for everybody. - Yeah. - It doesn't work. - I'm pretty sure we can't do that. - This calculation that he's doing and putting on a bill actually occurs in the ad that we put.

[01:02:01] We advertise the tax rate. This calculation shows up in that ad as well. were required as part of that ad to say it was a revenue neutral rate of state. But we haven't had a discussion. No, we haven't. Right, I didn't even know we did that, and nobody else does either, you know, so when your residents have never gotten that, I mean, unless you're real nerdy ones, have never noticed that, they'll most likely notice this.

[01:02:32] And, you know, I'd like to put a long page of explanation on this, but you can't. So hopefully they get this and understand and we go on to say that you haven't set a tax rate either because you will not send one by the time we send it. You will not set one by the time we send it down.

[01:02:54] And this is done by new code this year. They tried to do it last year or the year before, I guess it was, and they worded it wrong and we didn't have to do anything. And so we did this. It's going to be confusing. And it's going to be confusing for you guys come to you and say well what's this and this dollar 21 is not a real number what's this dollar 21 you know why i thought you were going to set the tax rate at a dollar 21 and the same way you get this when you come in at a dollar 28 and your proposed rate i can't believe you're raising it to a dollar 28. folks don't always understand exactly what it is and if this would be a wide

[01:03:34] number between whatever this number ends up being and whatever your uh capitalize rate is so the anticipated date for this to go out is? Our assessment measures? March 1st. March 1st. Okay. Jeremy, this is a wonderful opportunity, I think, to build on what you talked about yesterday, and that is content experts working with you to figure out how to have an explanation, you know, where several different ways for folks to get it, because, you know, this one right now, I take it this is the

[01:04:12] format you have to use here where you put a phone number oh that nothing most of this some of this is what we have to do others what we choose right let's say at the bottom part where people are going to have questions and so forth yeah and and somewhat of when I say aggressive that may be the wrong word a strategy for hoping residents know this is coming this is what it means then when it comes out, the questions arise. Folks, here again, just reminding you, here's where you can find additional information. Because I can see this burning up a lot of staff time

[01:04:51] with phone calls coming in and having to do that and where we can, you know, this is something that the state has decided to put on us, but we have the responsibility to help explain it to our residents and also getting it out to our our news media outlets as best we can repeatedly along the way on that that's all I wanted to say thank

[01:05:16] you there being the prices like you stated some places are selling but it's still the assessment comes with the assessment region, so it's not actually the way of belonging to a seller.

[01:05:39] Sometimes that becomes, people think the assessment might be a little bit too high, but it's still lower than what they have online with the seller. Over 90% of the time, yep, and then again that is 7, 8, 9% of the time that a sale will be below the assessment but there's always reasons for that and maybe a small percentage is that we assessed it too high but that just doesn't happen it's normally that it's between you know friends

[01:06:16] or neighbors or relatives and they give a better price because you know they need to do something for them or something in the house is not up to par and we don't know about that you know the whole basement has been gutted or the kitchen has no cabinetry and we don't know that so it'll sell for less than assessed value something along those lines but those are rare too the vast majority of sell more than more than assessed value even as we are raising assessments and trying to get them closer to where they should be we're still working on that that's why the south side is going up a

[01:06:55] little bit more than the north side Everything we do is based on fact and information. There is some opinion put into it but very, very little. The opinion is based on hard statistical data that we have and that's how we come up with assessments.

[01:07:23] Do you think there will be a difference of changes in administration, not changes on rates? Do you think there will be more concern for the revenues? Do you think there will be a difference or do you have, I'll look for five years, you know.

[01:07:47] For values? Not for values, but to see how, you know, how it might change these times. you were talking about it's no no the actual amount of income for more like do you see a big change or dramatic change in the future as the race change and people might be telling or I know that we can oversee something that happened like back in 2008 because it was so you know specific or so you know

[01:08:20] out of our norms, but is there anything that I need to be looking out for in the next two or five years? No, I don't see that. You know, rates may, I don't know what's going to happen when the new administration may drop.

[01:08:36] They might go through the roof. If they go through the roof, the sales are going to go down. We don't value things on the number of sales. We value them on what the sales are, how much they sell for.

[01:08:52] As far as residential goes, commercial is completely different. And I don't see values dropping, but back in years past when values did drop, nobody saw that either. So it may happen, but I don't think so.

[01:09:12] And as far as revenue goes, the revenue is not based on the assessment. The revenue is based on the tax rate. Because if the assessments go through the roof, you can lower the tax rate. If they drop, you can raise the tax rate. I can't do that. know I can't change the assessment based on what revenue we want everything we do is based on fact you know and people out there have been the only reason I'm raising assessments is to get the city more revenue no not at all you know it's got nothing to do with with the way we do our work so but just as a feeling I

[01:09:48] don't see the values dropping good on that I'm done so I know you want to break

[01:10:12] on their own when they need it or do you want to take group very quickly I'm sorry she has a question yeah it's up to you guys I mean I'm going to be somewhat quick you know you're not gonna be able to make it any decision now anyway I want to talk about taxable and where we are on our elderly and disabled and our

[01:10:46] veterans so then do we want to take that long okay I sent you all I believe you all got actually in your packet sensitive and the first part just tells you how we do what we do based on your ordinance and what I really want to get to further into it and show it the eligibility for disabled veterans

[01:11:21] eligibility for elderly and disabled when we get to the numbers here and the complete relief that we give for these folks I don't have a history on your paper there but in 2021 veterans total relief the actual revenue was four $425,000. As of right now, and it changes all the time because they can go back all the

[01:11:59] way to 2011 with relief, it's $908,000. It has more than doubled since '21. So our relief is going up exponentially for veterans. That is not y'all's policy. It's got nothing to do with you. That's a state policy that we have is mandated to us. One of those things that the state decided that this is a good thing, let's let the locality pay for it.

[01:12:30] I believe, personally, and this is just an opinion, it is a good thing. I just don't think the locality should have to pay for it, but we do, so those are big numbers. My concern mostly is with our elderly and disabled, especially our elderly.

[01:12:45] We haven't raised the number of the qualifying number of $56,150 for, I don't know, five or six, seven years. And the problem with that is we've got, we'll use an example of an elderly couple that makes $54,000 a year between Social Security, retirement, and whatever else they get.

[01:13:14] They are eligible because their net worth outside of their home is $200,000. That's all they've got in savings or stocks or whatever. So they're eligible. And then they get a 4% bump, 3% bump from Social Security, now all of a sudden they're making $57,000 and they get no relief.

[01:13:39] They go from $3,400 in relief to no relief. My concern is for those folks that, you know, and that we're losing, the numbers are dropping a lot for our elderly because some of them are passing and some of them get bumped off of the relief. So I would ask that you consider bumping that number. Problem is with the veterans you're over two percent of your revenue right now is in relief and if we keep going that way you know if we raise it

[01:14:19] for elderly and I can't tell you how much that's going to cost you because again that's knowledge I don't have. I don't know how many people if you raised it to fifty eight thousand dollars how many people from fifty six one are going to be eligible at that point we have to so I wouldn't do anything drastically But it would be nice if we could bump that enough to where when Social Security kicks in, that goes up that much.

[01:14:44] And I don't think it's going to cost that much in the overall scheme of things. I just paid for our elderly and our disabled, mostly elderly, to be kicked off of that because they make $57,000 a year. And they get $3,400 in relief when they make more than $32,000 and less than $56,000 one ticket.

[01:15:06] So that concerns me. What might help if it passes, which it probably won't because it would cost the state money. Right now there is a bill out there for veterans relief that if your locality is paying out more than 1% of your real estate revenue in relief to veterans, the state will reimburse 50% of that.

[01:15:36] um i think i've told you all i'm not sure the staffer is at nine percent nine percent of their real estate revenue goes to veteran relief they have eliminated their elderly and disabled relief because the elderly disabled you guys can do whatever you want with that that's not a state mandated thing and there's plenty of jurisdictions that have got had had to remove their elderly relief because they just can't afford it because of the veterans relief um and but i believe the the veterans deserve this, but I don't know that it should be from a local fund, but it

[01:16:16] is. So hopefully we'll gain some of that $988,000 back, whatever my number was, if that passes, but I'm not confident of that. It would be nice if it did, and so the state would pay that instead of half of it, half of what we pay, because we're teetering at 1%, and veterans go up every month, we have more veterans that apply and are eligible. So I'm not sure if that's going to continue, but with the wars that we've had and these guys and women are becoming more

[01:16:52] disabled, more of them are becoming eligible. So, Jim, I don't expect you to have this number, but we might. We might here. Otherwise, we could. So you said it's been several years.

[01:17:09] that yeah since the code i don't know about that so what i was curious is when we last raised it by the upper number that is correct the lower number you do according to hud is you know either what was the percentage we raised to get to the 56 and change or what was the dollar amount away for me in context that would be helpful okay how long ago was it you know was it eight years ago was it something like that I I guess I did not bring the ordinance that y'all

[01:17:45] that previous boards passed you weren't on it so it's at least over four years and what we did at that point we eliminated the incremental really it used to be if you made thirty five thousand forty five thousand fifty five thousand whatever you get a percentage off and it was simplified and it works I didn't worry about folks you know all they all only difference they make is that the federal government gives a few more dollars in social security yeah like anything and

[01:18:21] understood and I'm glad you brought it to our attention to the point where for me I have a dozen items that I hope we will talk about at the work session or what have you but I'd like to have just a little bit more background that kind of put it all in context well but previous councils did how long ago yeah that's that I normally carry that with me I'm surprised I didn't the ordinance that was passed and it's been a while okay but thank you ma'am

[01:19:04] a lot of them they don't reapply or I hate to say it they passed a lot of our People have passed. Can you give her the number of applicants? Just a hint. Remember? Yeah. Not the ones that dropped off, but you processed 100 last year, this year you only processed 80.

[01:19:25] I've actually got that number somewhere, just not here. My order, you know, I just have an idea. My biggest, you know, I want, you know, like I want to do it. I'm sure everybody has, you know, different perspectives, but I want to have an idea idea what the percentage will be or how if we were to do something I understand you know you can't you know unless they apply you wouldn't be able to estimate how much wealth is and if they qualify

[01:19:57] or not but so we can at least move in a positive way and do something if we look at all the percentage increases that we haven't met i have no idea how much that minimum will be if we were to try to be on there and we were eight years ago so that would be a height yeah that would be quite a number there yeah yeah and i wouldn't do that because if i were you my recommendation is because we don't know how many people will then qualify and all of a sudden that number may escalate and in in reality

[01:20:36] the council or the city does a very good job in relief. A little over 2% is a good number. That's why I really like this thing in the legislature to pass so that we can get $500,000 and put that toward the elderly. Don't put it in our pocket, but put it towards some of our folks that really need it.

[01:21:00] I think it's rough on somebody that they're just living their later lives and the government gives them a little bit more money and all of a sudden they lose $3,400 of relief.

[01:21:22] You know, they might gain $1,000 from Social Security and lose $3,400. I mean, you know, like to me it sounds like a lot of money that, you know, it means a lot more you have to realize that 3,400 is for somebody living in our city on $56,000 at $3,400 is a big number I think that's all I wanted to talk to you

[01:22:02] So, I'll stick around just in case you have any questions you can't answer.

[01:22:28] We're now sort of into the budget issues, sort of the expenditure side of everything. I'll go through some things pretty quickly, and some of these are going to take deeper dives as we go throughout the retreat, I believe, such as capital projects, Matt, right?

[01:22:51] That's a whole different section. Data center rate and revenue planning, we sort of already touched on during the budget process. By planning, I mean exactly what Vice Mayor Wolf was talking about, what are we going to do with moving a revenue stream and how do we get to that?

[01:23:08] And then during the budget process, we need to know if you would like to create a separate data center tax rate and what it would be. So that's why we have that up there as an issue. Starting from the top, this general fund salaries and benefit increases with some sort of COLA health insurance rate increase and merit increase.

[01:23:36] We're estimating to be $1.5 million. don't have health insurance rates, and yet those typically don't come in until February. They have not been a tremendous impact in the past, so I'm not really anticipating that. Again, this is, VRS rates are usually a bigger impact, and they do not, they are, every other year increases, it's not an increase year, so that part is good.

[01:24:03] And if there are any other benefit changes or enhancements to be had, we would bring that forward through the budget process. I'm not aware of anything at this moment that we have concrete, Doug, unless you are. No, so that when we look at our region, which is what we try to compare it with, it's everything from three to eight percent. It's a wide range, but what's important for you, again, I'll always tell you this because we do it differently. Even when we

[01:24:35] say 3%, that's the average. Those on the high end of midpoint get less than 3%. Those below midpoint are actually getting more than 3%. That is a different way than anybody else in Northern Virginia and different than our schools. So that number is an estimate of us being somewhere in the middle there of however we do it to remain competitive in watching what our neighbors are doing. Also, if I can just build on what Diane said, as you know, we've already started building

[01:25:11] the budget, right? This is what we're building the budget off of right here, okay? So these are the things we're going to highlight that we've already identified that could be problematic for us, but we're already plugging into the budget, okay? One of the other things we, along the lines of salaries and benefits. We're having HR look into instead of like what's the industry standard, what is everybody else doing in terms of a small scale increase as we go along every like something

[01:25:48] every year, every other year, whatever everyone else is doing so that every few years we're not like we need to raise our scales 10%. So we're trying to get a feel for what's going on out there as well. And that would be something we would factor into that number. School funding, that's the 3%. What that amounts to the 3% increase. To answer Ms. Vasquez-Luna's question from earlier, in 2024, the operating transfer to the schools was $58.7 million. In 2025, it was $62 million. So that's where I was saying the 1.5 and the 3%. That amounts to that change

[01:26:24] is a $3.3 million increase which is 5.63% from 24 to 25. And so that is for 26, this number is 3% increase on 62 million for 2026. Say that again. That is a 3% increase on top of 62 62 million would amount to 1.86 million additional for this world for clarity because

[01:26:57] this has come up a couple of times with questions remember you as council approved the 1.5 million extra to specifically target teacher pay and you know you don't support teacher pay you specifically to increase that number to enhance their already in place increases that they have.

[01:27:27] That was like somehow partial or we were making that for what they were behind. So, and this is, you know, I know the decision that was made by asking, Are we going to highlight it again since that was 5.63% or are, I'm sorry, 5.63% or are we going to highlight it in this year because last, you know, that took time, it didn't

[01:27:59] happen until January and then it was, you know, on top of, you know, doing it was more like making more something you know some specific stuff that i really don't want to get into from my ass on the highlights are we going to say it was you know we can't go back but i would want to say this one is the three percent plus uh 2.63 sort of like that i'm just trying to have this feel of where we're going to go with that if we're going to leave it like okay we already did it

[01:28:32] The calculation, so in 2024 was when the decision was made halfway in January 2024 was when that decision was made.

[01:28:52] So 25 is the first full year of the 1.5. So that 5.63% occurred between 24 and 25, not between 25 and 26. i understand what you're saying i'm sorry so no um i i think we you we do need to highlight that out so that when the conversation come up again from diane worded early the good work you've done i think we have to find a way to message that different things we heard you we this year it

[01:29:29] wasn't three percent this year it was 5.26 so i think i think we have to find a way to communicate that and talk about it differently. I think I've always gotten to listen to that I know that, you know, we need it. It's just that there's so much talk about food and we have work, you know, so it's like different things that we have, so it's, you know, you are interested.

[01:29:55] I would like to see that, because we did it, and that highlight, I don't think it shows, but that's the only reason why, you know, I'm bringing it up if I don't think it's, you know, something that's, you know, important. I have schools scheduled for the end of the day tomorrow as that last section for additional school conversation that will talk about their ask and compensation discussion outside of the 3% that we've already told.

[01:30:28] So we can build on this conversation tomorrow if you can wait that long because it's all kind of tied together. I just wanted to tell Sonia that that I would like to I was expecting to see that and I think that is going to need to be one of our work session topics as as well to do to discuss a little bit more simply because I think the time that we have we're trying to cover a lot of stuff today and tomorrow and and for

[01:31:01] me and I I agree that the messaging and since it just started it's not really 3% that we gave them it was actually an increase of 5.56 percent what what's the What did that put, 5.63?

[01:31:20] Is it 6356? 5.63. Oh, yeah. 5.63. I'm going to write it down, and I'll put a box around so I can see it. Hold on.

[01:31:37] I guess I do have something else. What is it? 5.63. 5.63. So, on that sort of thing. And since we just started that, so that is part of the new, to me, as Sonia said, set the new conversation to have her, you know, in terms of not just messages, but that's indeed what's happened, and then the question becomes, as you said, tomorrow we can start talking about that, and we continue that, and I'm happy to play that, gathering info, okay?

[01:32:08] Along those lines, so without, so if FY24 was 58.7, without that 1.5, the 25 number would been 60 and the 26 number with continuing the 3% would have been at 62 million so there's also that weight compounding you can see. Shared services, that 750,000 is just an estimate

[01:32:47] of 5%. However, good news, let me just check the email, I am still waiting to hear back from the county, so this includes all shared services, jails, the shared services agreement that we call shared services, all of that together.

[01:33:07] I actually think if we're still going by the CPI, the increases and what we have built into all of the shared services, I'm not sure we're going to need that 750.

[01:33:23] I think we can absorb that around our, we've been told our jail population is down, so I wouldn't need a full 5% in there. So I think I can work around all the numbers and reallocate around to cover the increases and possibly not need that $750,000, which is really good.

[01:33:44] But I'm, of course, still waiting on a final calculation from them. But I think that's going to be way better news than I have up on that board. Good news. Mr. Burke had a meeting with county leadership as well.

[01:34:02] They have now indicated it's taken us a year to get there, but they've indicated they are ready to now begin discussion and putting together a work group between council, the board of directors, and staff to begin discussing shared services in the future.

[01:34:20] So remember, I was told that last year, and here we are a year away. so that would be i'm sure to be a priority that you give mr burke

[01:34:41] we don't know from you know and you've had a change in council from the one person that you said last year it was a vice mayor's investment but for us we'll need to yeah we we don't know that and we don't we'd have to redefine how Mr. Shorter indicated it was just going to be a an item that they will definitely be doing okay thank you and this may not be the place

[01:35:17] in your presentation and so forth and Mr. Burke, Steve we've talked about we've seen some news articles about the judicial center redevelopment along the way to which we were You know, anyway, except to say what part, what's your understanding, Steve or Diane or Doug, as to what part are we, if any, expected to be having, if we're going to have any impact on the planning?

[01:35:55] because I think there's some planning development concerns. And then secondly, the cost. Are we going to be expected to participate in helping to fund this? At what point do we, you know, things of this sort? Or will this be a topic for the working group?

[01:36:15] Two things. It should be a discussion of part of the working group. Absolutely. You're going to have to cut this out. Otherwise, you're going to be expected to pay your percentage no matter what they do. They have, if history repeats itself, you're going to have zero input on what they do.

[01:36:34] As Mr. Shorter has shared with me, that bell has rung and we cannot unring it because I wanted to go back and talk about the layout and alternatives. They've already funded it and got it in place and I believe construction in 27 is when it's scheduled to begin construction.

[01:36:56] So they're not going to unring the bell because they're moving forward. So we have a major, we have a major public relation, if best, that we are going to have to work on in the city.

[01:37:14] And we have indicated that to the county, this construction is going to happen right on the edge of your residential community. So in our community is going to expect us and you, not the county, to do something.

[01:37:32] And so the messaging could be on my hands before. I've spoken directly to three members of the board in the last 10 days about that all three were essentially unaware and surprised that there was any impact in the city.

[01:37:54] There was no discussion in the city. We were not aware. Well, we've been, you know, this has been being discussed for a long time. And I tried to phrase it positively, like, this is an opportunity for your staff to come brief the council in our community about what you are going to impose on our residents arbitrarily.

[01:38:18] And, again, they're just, it never crossed their brain to consider bringing us into the discussion. It either is staff or political work. And that's where I think having this, you know, again, the discussion, you know, an ongoing discussion group can hopefully start to alleviate and at least the chair was cognizant and spoke positively of that point forward we need to you know we need to do a better job yeah you do

[01:38:55] all right keep going that's all your great news guys so from a budget standpoint i think if the final number the final cpi number used is roughly say three percent and i can i can offset any of that with a reduction in some of the corrections type costs, that the number will not be $750.

[01:39:24] It will be somewhere lower, much lower. The other piece that's a smaller piece of our budget, but also good news, the OmniRide VRE proposed budget is lower than what they had planned for last year.

[01:39:43] So we can still contribute, we still have to offset $300,000, but I was projecting I was going to have to incrementally raise that like $25,000 a year. We can hold off on that increase and leave it flat for one or two more years based on these new numbers.

[01:40:00] So that's also good news. I am just going to skip past the next two because I know ICM is going to want to talk a little bit more. I have contract increases up there. That's nothing really exciting. is literally just a lot of mostly on the technology side having to go to the cloud for almost all of our softwares and just general increases in contracts that's going to happen and it always does and i just don't know the full cost of that yet and then utility rate study we are still in the middle of that it'll probably the results will probably be available in a march work session

[01:40:39] But I don't, I mean, I have not seen any of it. I don't suspect that they're going to recommend zero rated percent rating. So, that's, they're looking at a five to eight, eight and a half percent.

[01:40:58] I'm just waiting for them to finalize it. Both water and electric? Electric is going to be more on the higher end of that range. Water may not necessarily be at the higher. So we've had minimal...

[01:41:14] Didn't the county announce a 9% increase in those? I think it's 7.5%, but what we've been looking at is that the county has been regularly been increasing at 2% annually. Which is what my point was going to be.

[01:41:33] We've gone years with a 0% increase, and intuitively that doesn't actually track because labor, material, raises increase every year. So I think we're going to be playing some catch-up here with what we should have been incrementally doing possibly over the past some odd years.

[01:41:57] But we've known this was coming. We knew that when we entered into the Great Study Agreement. So we are still in that, and that should be ready sometime in March time frame. Now I'm going to go back to social services case and the fire rescue staffing.

[01:42:16] I know I see I'm going to talk about those. Good, thank you, Brian. The social services case is one example of, I'm going to use the word mandate, requirements that are going to go up that are absolutely out of your control. Although it's going to be listed and it's an increase in social services, it's really a combination of social services and your school.

[01:42:39] So this is a special needs child that the schools cannot meet the educational requirement and need of. So that child has to be placed in a special home and educational environment, which happens to be in Connecticut, is the only place in the United States that can do it.

[01:42:59] So that one case is going to, this is not the total cost, this is the increase, that case is going to cost us an additional $260,000, but that money for that child goes to social services because now the child is in their care because the parents and the school cannot provide for the child. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the actual cost of this I think is $400,000 or $600,000. It was just over $400,000. It was just over $400,000, so the state

[01:43:34] and fed offset part of it. This is from the general fund to the social services fund to cover the local portion of this 400 plus. So my point being, and this is just the way I look at it, and you can't, is these are some of, when we have the discussion with schools, we are in partner with them. And I truly believe that. But this is connected to the schools and this would be an increase that we are absorbing as well so there's little

[01:44:08] things that you contribute in kind that as our partner we are helping and we are taking care of these things as well if there's no questions we'll move to the next one if that's okay the next thing is the fire and rescue staffing we had a work session with chief mills as you know the Volunteer Fire, not Rescue, Volunteer Fire has zero certified members into staff. That second

[01:44:43] engine is going to take three FTEs. That is an additional $350,000. And Diane, make sure I state the second part here. You're already supplementing the Fire and Rescue Fund outside it's budget by a half million as well out of the general funds. Am I saying that correctly?

[01:45:07] Current FTEs, $500,000? No, so the current FTEs, that cost, that half million is what would be needed for the salary and benefits that we were talking about on the similar to the general fund. But were you taking that out of the, I thought you were going to supplement I didn't have that. I didn't have a plan for it yet. That would be what the levy would

[01:45:37] need to generate. I didn't know how to work the calculation yet. But that 350 at some point would reduce, these three FTEs would reduce the amount of overtime being paid out At some point, it'll take a while to get there to some even level of overtime, but it would reduce that because we're still having to fill these engines just by paying a bunch of overtime.

[01:46:12] So that's almost a million dollar increase in the levy. In my opinion, a harder conversation that I believe you need to have, you are currently budgeting $180,000 to the volunteer rescue, volunteer fire department.

[01:46:40] What are we budgeting for if they're not providing any services? I have the list, but should you consider reducing that number if they're not providing any supplemental service?

[01:46:57] Hard conversation to have, but in reality, that money was there for recruitment, uniform, gear. I can go through the list. If they're not using it, no one's doing it. Should you remove that money from the fire and rescue budget and help offset this number?

[01:47:14] and we'll have that those conversations and better line items and estimates because we have some questions of how it's being spent as we begin our work session well you go ahead i know we're going to get there and i'm going to be done but when we get there whether it's 500 or 850, what we'll see of the amount, are you looking for an increase in the

[01:47:49] statistics? Are we looking for that and how much that will be? That will be my ask that when we get there, that we see the different options or what's presented because I'm going to be found.

[01:48:07] once i know so that's triggered by assessed values from tim and what that will generate and be able to cover in the levy so i'll have i wait on that as well but yes you will i think you know my questions are coming because i'm not getting ahead a little bit

[01:48:33] When we have the work session, I'm sure that we'll have all of that, but I just want to make sure that we have all of it and we're adopting any recommendations as well.

[01:48:51] And one of the ways to address that would be a shift between the two rates also as an option, but again, I still need to try to get Tim's final number. my intent unless you tell me today not to even do it that way you know we've been last year we've provided you a lot of data and a lot of opportunities for you to make some decisions in some of these things do you do you want to do all three in one year or do you want to do

[01:49:27] one or two this year and see if the volunteers can get back up and see or so those are the options that are on the table for us to look at. I'm going to tell you right now, I don't see a future of the volunteers coming out. It takes, as you heard, well over a year just for them to get certified to be able to run. And that's if you time the school correctly.

[01:49:53] So you have some, well, we can give you options. Thanks, Mary. Doug, how much do you know the amount of money we do give to volunteer fire rescue right now. 180,000 to fire and 99,000 to rescue and it's my understanding that rescue volunteers aren't very active. Very active. Remember they do not take care of a building. They run out of 21. You own the old rescue

[01:50:28] squad so we can easily track what they're doing. They were actually turned their's around a little bit. They've been recruited better, they have more expenses on their certifications and other items, but they're funded less.

[01:50:44] So we can break those down to the two, those are two different organizations, so you already have them broken down. But when we get further in your work sessions, we will identify the night that's going to be public safety and have this data for you and we'll help. I'm thinking that when we do that, that might be helpful to have representatives from both bodies at the session, should we have questions.

[01:51:22] I can give you my word, there's not going to be any surprises to any organization where the first time they hear something is that night. We will have those conversations with them, that's not my style, or our style.

[01:51:38] We're going to have those conversations with them ahead of time and give them an opportunity to present something to both to us and to them. I'm sorry, but I have to say, I mean, you know, they were in the background, and that's why I'm very interested in this and making some permanent solutions to things.

[01:52:13] I'm giving you my, you know, my way of thinking and when I'm making this. Understood. I don't have anything to say unless anyone has any questions They think about other issues Because that's why it's somewhat other than me But you're staying Oh yeah I think one more I mean, within everything that is happening Going back to the PR

[01:52:51] You will keep the ridership So long But you will It won't be a huge increase on traffic but also you will see an increase on the usage of that and if that happens you know it will make our numbers awfully a little better. I know they just opened so I'm

[01:53:21] sure we do not have any data from the wall lock in terms of fuel tax. We don't and the revenue projections PRTC actually gave me for our gas tax revenue I'm guessing the slight bump that they show for 26 reflected that it's not huge and then

[01:53:55] they project minimal increases in the out years it's not a huge it does not grow a lot but I do my own projections so I haven't seen so that might be found money opportunity yeah they typically do underestimate but we are still supplementing 300,000 and unless something drastic changes I don't be

[01:54:32] reducing that in the future I do want to say you know like this only person I always recall you know pushing this you know it was in our program I would say if there anything I mean we had you know the chicken but didn't know thing is Is there anything in the communications, you know, I plead any time in the year that you

[01:55:07] can remind people, you know, your money will be in bed for you, for your gas, and we have so many gas options, like, I go out of my way to make sure that I always talk to Mananka, but I think if we have a reminder to a resident, hey, you know, they could make up for that money if we were, I'm hopeful, if we were reminding them, hey, your child, If you put it in Manassas County, or if you put it in Manassas City, and there is plenty of gas options.

[01:55:43] I know some people still are going to do the foster gas, but they're all the people that might when you bring it up, can you talk to them all the other people?

[01:56:00] I was just looking at your data center rate revenue planning. So going back to that, when Sim was talking and we were saying maybe we can put in a capital reserve account. I mean, well, I guess the numbers after April 15th when they start, is that correct?

[01:56:20] Some idea, maybe? On which? The data center. On maybe Friday? By April 15th. By April 15th for sure. Okay. it all depends on by april 15th by april 15th for sure okay so going into our budget work sessions we'll have an idea maybe what kind of revenue might come in i'm only thinking about you know they don't have a very good reputation in the community as we all know and um if it's a huge

[01:56:56] chunk you know if we can consider how we can look at the tax rate with that money you know can we keep our tax rate or bills can we give them a break because of the revenue that we're expecting you know i just wanted to do this you know what i'm saying to show to show that there's a benefit to having that here it's going to help you with your tax bill so part of the how i'm taking what you're saying very similar to a message right identifying you may not like data

[01:57:33] centers but how does that help you as a residential tax rate every year so it's not like a reoccurring comment we have a new public relations communications person setting right beside you uh and these are things that we spoke with jeremy about during the interview process and you've already heard his philosophy on messaging and trying to get a grip of how we as a student can do things a little bit so yeah we're not we're agreeing i think a lot of

[01:58:12] this stuff we just kind of get messaged out yeah hi thank you and whatever does end up coming in the second half of this fiscal year is obviously not budgeted and if all goes well in the big picture of the general fund just by nature that money will end up at some point through the process into the capital reserves in this current year unless someone directs us to do something differently with it all right

[01:58:47] it's 11:30 lunches or normally a little early I have three other topics that I think we can move forward that would that's on the agenda prior to lunch first one up I'm going to get out of order just a little bit is nonprofit funding so the nonprofit funding your list is in there I just wanted to point out there's things you're going to see there's something you'll see different this year and we give you an example of it serve we we do as you'll note and can you blow

[01:59:24] that up somewhere unless they have it okay so you'll see it being note at the very bottom where it says serve is also getting money from social service right we fund them we put money into social services because they provide services that social services needs. So why are we doing, and this is philosophy, why are we looking at this of doing non-profit funding in addition to that? They clearly need the money and we're clearly using the services. So instead of making them go through the non-profit application process

[02:00:03] of giving them that additional money in the social services budget and let the social services manager manage that money for the services they use so it gets that out so my question to this body when we're going to do it that way let's call it 25 000 that's just one example do we want to

[02:00:29] reduce the total amount funded for non-profit by 25 000 or leave the 25 000 in there and be able to give other non-profit money or additional money, probably confusion, everybody, we have to step back.

[02:00:58] I want to scale it up. I'm going, uh, 2-1-2-1-3, okay? Back to the end of it. 1-7-5, okay. 1-7-5? Yeah, 1-7-5-1.

[02:01:14] Or 2-1-2-1. Step into it. The other thing, building on that, what I would actually suggest is we take the organization that have gotten significant amounts of money for a long period of time to sort of do what we did.

[02:01:38] Doug was talking about serve, what we've already done at the Art Factory, and just, they become part of the department's budgets. And you can, wherever you want to draw the line, you know, with $10,000 or $15,000 or $20,000, you know, to be honest, the ballet and Nova, and Axe, Nova Food Services, we've had long, I mean, it's almost like HMI, and we've had long-term relationships, a significant amount of money and I think it would be better served for those organizations

[02:02:12] in department budgets rather than part of the non-profit process and then the non-profit process could be from, frankly, a small amount of money for other organizations and then that may, whether that's the staff functionality or it's part of Parks and Rec feedback process, Yeah, it's equal in size and get it off the plate at all levels.

[02:02:44] It makes me feel uncomfortable for me to go. I'm sorry. Do you make me feel uncomfortable for me to do it the way you want? Yeah, because it's, you know, whether you like it or know who's talking about it.

[02:03:02] Absolutely. I, you know, I wouldn't, you know, it makes me just, you know, having that conversation so is this something hey what was this something you needed direction before we

[02:03:41] leave this meeting well we're building the budget so we kind of need how you would do the non-profit okay all I was going to say all I was going to say is if we leave it this way I I would I'm in favor of increasing it I mean since I've been on you know it's no surprise to anyone who's been on council or follow

[02:04:16] I always thought that what we contribute to our nonprofit community in comparison to the size of our budget is very, very low and very small amounts. We've spent all this time still talking about it. You're saying an increase to 20, I'm sorry.

[02:04:33] Yeah, it looks like what is being suggested here in this, at the bottom line, lower right-hand corner is an increase of $25,000. Is that correct, Doug? or we're talking about a total of just $200,000 that we have in the 25 budget to continue into 27.

[02:04:56] Keep it at $200,000 and reallocate the $25,000 or so that's going to serve as an example or you go to $175,000 as council member Luna. Gotcha, okay. And that $25,000 has been used for grants to kind of small grants that Parks and Rec has overseen, but to other groups, like there was the African-American different, that's a different part of money, but I'm talking about, this is a non-profit fund, and this is the folks who go through the annual, so if they left it at $200,000,

[02:05:34] that $25,000 would go through the allocation process that they go through each year, and could be, as Doug suggested, distributed to different groups, and I would certainly want to keep it keep it where where where it is but I'm certainly open to we're just looking at some of these to put in these large amounts if I guess what what is the criteria that we use to put Art Factory and Hilton and serve in these these separate MOUs so to speak here and with that criteria as as it's written

[02:06:14] right now or understood be be applicable to let's just take X you know where we contributed $40,000. The criteria we have been looking at really from Mr.

[02:06:32] Tate's philosophy when we were we were focused on facilities organizations that were in a had a physical presence in the city so we own the center for that we We own the Candy Factory, we own the Train Devo or HMIs, we own, we have revenue agreements with GMU for both Hilton and Freedom Center.

[02:06:55] So we were, we really, when Art Factory came up, there was money to the parks and rec budget and money in the nonprofit. And since we leased that building to them, the idea was to move it into the park, similar to what we've been doing for years with the other three parks and rec organizations.

[02:07:10] So that's as far as we went based on, we had the lease up and that was the opportunity to clean up some of the having funding in three different places make notes that you weren't getting a good picture of what the city's contribution to that organization and so using that criteria looking at the list here acts has a presence in fiscal location but not a city building that's so we've only focused on city buildings up to this one so part of their application I mean

[02:07:47] and part of the application process is how are you serving the residents of Manasseh. Right, that's a big part of it, that's a huge part, so ACTS is a very big part of that and they can provide the actual data of the number of families served that were Manasseh City residents.

[02:08:12] When it comes to that, I would have to say this because I have pride on my own. like it's very tight to social services so the difference here is that only social services is restaurant here you know it is hard to give that um that benefit so for me i wouldn't mind that because it's already like whether the police department and i'm forgive me if i really don't know i'm just talking on you know my experience whether it's police department or social services

[02:08:49] together, they were certain, this is basically them asking, you know, to take care of this based on their MOU or the other money that they get. So I wouldn't mind for that because it's still, it's like third type to social care. So I wouldn't mind MOU or whatever you do with them.

[02:09:09] You know, and I get it. You know, these will give them a stylish cream and a bit of more of, you know, consistency. Not because we haven't been giving them money the whole time. The people make it more special that we are, you know, are looking for a long-term payment.

[02:09:27] But this is on the year-to-year basis. Our, you know, numbers don't look right. I mean, this could be one of the first places that we can have to see if we need it or we can, you know, do the reductions that do it.

[02:09:43] So, to me, that one, you know, for sure, So I would go out on my way to have peace if possible, you know, to sign up because it would be served, I'm sorry, it would be the social services in the police department, the stronger arm on the benefit of it, I very need.

[02:10:04] I know there was establishment in the city, there was some of the homeless or getting some of the homeless to the help of the community, and now as a change, I'm concerned about what they need to do.

[02:10:34] I know even though it wasn't formal, but I have to think about, you know, about how that is going to relate to our needs of the homeless and living in the community. I know. So they're right. I'm open to, you know, conversations and this, but I would like to see if possible to tie all the money together to give a better partnership through social services, because at the end, you know, now they wouldn't have to apply.

[02:11:10] And I would like to think when we do that more, that that money is still, you know, it's still very, you know, set aside. So fees will be reduced, but it doesn't seem that our expense is reduced. That's why I'm looking at reducing this, because, you know, you're just moving the expense to another item, no getting a rate of expense.

[02:11:34] There is, I believe, instead of reducing it, it's more like a permanent commitment that we need this and that we need to continue that. That's exactly the philosophy that we're looking at. And really, the way you word it, you're simply moving that money over to a different life. That's the truth.

[02:11:58] I want to be sure. Other people want to have a chance to talk first. There's a couple of organizations that I'm not familiar with. you're with. So the staff receives the application so if we wanted to know more just send an email to them. It's all on our website.

[02:12:19] So on the website, more about the organizations that were on this list? So the organizations on this list, this is where this thing gets a little muddied up that we tried to tell you before. We tried to explain tried to explain a little differently is this council ultimately you're approving the list because you approve the budget but are you going to be involved in the approval process of who gets what money i would caution you to stay out of i don't want to be involved in that but i

[02:12:56] do remember to tell you a question i mean it's not up anymore it was the 26 process is up now yes so you have questions about uh make sure i understand your question yeah you have questions about the the group that's applying no who's going here so that are i'm assuming they had an application process or something that is correct everybody here explained what they do so they have to provide all their legal documentation or financial documentation and the data points of

[02:13:32] of how they would or are serving Manassas residents. I would tell you that we give more weight. There's a committee that evaluates these. We give more weight for those that can put exact data of how they are supporting the city of Manassas.

[02:13:53] There were groups that applied in the past that they may have been starting off as a first-year nonprofit, they had no data and our message back to one of the things we changed last year was um ellis incorporated non-profit we didn't you didn't get any money because you didn't provide the data next year this would be the data we are looking for so we actually give feedback to those organizations that apply why they didn't get money um there's only a couple on here that

[02:14:32] I didn't take it that you were. I was trying to explain how we would answer that question.

[02:14:50] Please don't ask that question until February 3rd. We did provide some of it during the budget process last year. We always provide, as one of the work sessions, sessions kind of the summary of who applied and yeah so we we provided it I can't find the Friday update because I know we made an effort to put it all out at one point the application so how plan but what about Jeremy down to the website please the report just to give a brief summary so that anyone so I think

[02:15:26] with the conversation that we've been having it's on his marks importance on is and so forth. For me, I would A, say support the $200,000. B, I would say leave this the way it is at this point. But at a future work session, a discussion about do we and if we did, what would redefining the MOU look like? I understand what it is right now. And so,

[02:16:03] You know, I know certain ones fall into it, certain ones would not, meaning that the higher dollar amounts that were, you know, taking Mark's suggestion there to start with. And are there ways, but Sonia does point out, they may not have a physical, they may not be in a city building, but because they assist a city agency like social services, that is something I hadn't thought of.

[02:16:33] And so rather than trying to make a policy or change right now on the fly, I'd like to have a really thoughtful discussion moving forward. But understanding city manager's office, the city manager's office is putting together a budget and need something moving along here for simplicity's sake, I would recommend doing what we do right now, future work session, have this where we explore it and make it thoughtful if any changes or adaptations along.

[02:17:05] way. That's all. Okay. I'm going to put this in my simple mind of process. I wasn't simple. No. No. Let's take in my mind of how this would work if we go there. And that's it. More conversation. The $200,000 bottom line mark, right? On this page, as an example only, that new bottom line would go to $140,000 because we would take the $40,000

[02:17:39] to act, and the $20,000 to serve, and increase social services line item by $60,000. So theirs would increase by $60,000, this one would reduce by, and then it becomes a permanent line item for service, I mean social services. That's about as simple as I can explain. But more conversation. More conversation. That was our thought process. I'm going to move

[02:18:14] long because it's getting close to lunch i don't really send four head nods of a decision one way or another of how we're going to go so we will proceed as we did last year uh and then we will have this as a discussion of potential policy changes in the future good uh next one up and we'll move back uh and we jump right into the 25 vehicle license fee not a tax vehicle license fee removal discussion that falls into your office there was a question about this of where we

[02:18:51] should do it that number roughly tim if you reduce that 25 fee um doing the math in my head roughly 800 000. it's closer to a million because you've got we budget 950 000. yeah i think that's closer to it because each vehicle they can assess that fee without paying tax too so and if they sell it they sell it to pay that fee um you know it the the near million dollars is not my concern or my

[02:19:29] position that's y'alls um people come in and complain about their car tax believe it or not um i can explain you know why am i paying tax on this vehicle that i've already paid tax on same reason you're doing it on your home this is personal property as opposed to real property it's in the constitution uh you know we should in the constitution at my home i should be paying on my bed as well but we have since exempted that we didn't exempt vehicles um and i can explain it

[02:20:04] that you know you you use the road you use this it takes money for us to have these vehicles in our city and we need the revenue. What's this license fee for? Is this what the decal fee was? Yes, that paid for your decal. Why are we still paying that? And I don't really have an answer and I think the answer is basically because it's a million dollars or nine hundred thousand dollars and it takes care of some of the services we have to provide here and all of those things

[02:20:42] and so that's what it takes it it does take us in this office money to process all of these things and that's the best i can come up with it and it is a it's a pain for us that the year is different for that than taxes it's just a uh the so-called dreaded uh car tax is bad but i can explain that you know i i and i have a hard time explaining the license fee i really do yeah i i'd ask for

[02:21:17] this to get concluded on the agenda just to throw it out uh to me this is uh it's inherited the number one thing to hear pitch and resident and i'm not sitting there saying i want to do it i mean i i do but to me i want to throw it out because i know there is a financial implication

[02:21:40] And if pluses and minuses, additional revenue streams through the budget, if we could find a way to do this, this would be one area where I think cutting that revenue would be very well received by the rest of the city.

[02:22:03] And your employees. If we could find the money to be able to do this and the other things and balance it out. So once I heard the amount, I was just looking back on my note. but i do see that it is almost equal to right now the amount of tax related we give veterans yeah i said 908 000 that's right this raises 950 here i mean if you want an explanation of what it does you know a long way is it you all want to tell that to people i can do that but i mean

[02:22:43] sort of we don't earmark that money for veterans i i i i understand that i'm just saying you know if you want to know because you know when we anytime we do tax relief what we're essentially saying is on the other side is the rest of us who don't obtain it are willing or expected to make up the difference that's how it how it works no longer like it no and and everybody says they're there they're okay with with tax relief along the way but then just like a business you're

[02:23:21] sitting there and saying by doing these discount may be the wrong word but if I'm doing this tax relief I gotta figure out either do I absorb it or what do I you know cut along the way that I'm no longer I'm going to pay for on that and I'm not arguing mark with mark about doing it I'm always since we've got 11 sessions to talk about this and the financial picture is just beginning to come into to focus bits and pieces we have a long way to go if it could be

[02:24:00] done sure you know a long way along the way I'm in that regard and the good message that indeed we did attack attack along the way but wiped it out completely on that. Thank you, ma'am.

[02:24:20] I would like to see it happen. I don't know, I know that the, yeah, there is, as you see, the new cars are holding that and are, you know, and are coming, you know, a little bit more than back on the base, you know. I would like to see that. So there, you know, like, no matter how gravity the car you know you have like you know money we have some gravity ones in

[02:24:56] the city yes you are right you have to come back for those 25 dollars i believe that even you know it will save time it will save in other areas i know it's not going to come up to the amount but i you know i certainly believe that it can make a positive difference for the residents especially if you have an old car means because you know it's going back to those that we are giving them we are if they have a car we are taking those even if they have a very old car we're taking those 35 dollars from them so it still is going to help them i i will like to see

[02:25:33] uh you know and um and what you're proposing hopefully we have uh support um I mean is the registration fee, and it's not a tax, it's a fee, a mechanism for ensuring that personal property taxes on that vehicle have been paid?

[02:26:10] In other words, if I come in to register my car and I have not paid my personal property tax, you won't register that car. But the fee that you use, well, there are vehicles, the people that would affect the most, when I get my personal property tax bill, I mean, ours are a little bit older cars, but there is still a significant number, I have to write that check, adding $50 on for those two cars is no big deal.

[02:26:48] But if all I can afford is, as somebody else put it, a raggedy car, that $50 for my two cars or $25 for one is a big deal. So I think if we are able to eliminate it, I think it will help the lower socioeconomic folks in our city more than the higher socioeconomic folks.

[02:27:13] I want to thank you for making this recommendation. I think it's well I think it's noteworthy that no I mean what you're saying about you know you're able to explain a tax rate but you're not able to explain it I think that that's valid um for the community's perception so thank you for explaining that um I have an agreement that if we can if we can remove the issue to look at it yeah I don't like I remember that night at the council meeting when it came up, and I said, what's that for?

[02:27:46] And those are the people that are like, oh, my God. Nobody talks about this. So for us to be able to do it and agree to what's that for, what's this very good way is it? I don't like not being in this place. And then we could gain it. It's hard.

[02:28:02] I can. You know, it's necessary for the operation of the city. But that's not what they want to hear. You're right. And really quick and you know just a reminder that this is providing guidance you know that we are you know providing guidance to see how we're going to do and how it looks like. I just want to make sure that's what I recommend.

[02:28:28] you're correct that's how we that's how when i asked where they had not said that's exactly what i'm looking for is we will build the budget uh with that guidance around that and then that will be a policy decision that you would have to make if we can make that happen in the budget process as we proceed would council be okay if there's a multi-year elimination if we were able to reduce the fee from 25 to 15 with the understanding that there may be some additional revenue coming

[02:29:06] online to offset that on the next budget just so that we can see what we're trying to make

[02:29:30] one last item um 57 so i got three minutes to get to it and i don't think this will take long the last thing on the agenda prior to lunch was the employee recruitment retention uh open vacant position list you have that list it was also in the friday update miss hicks is giving her hr presentation monday night i believe that would be the better time for you to ask questions about these two items after she does her presentation uh with what we're doing with recruitment retention

[02:30:08] you've already heard a little bit about compensation and benefit from us. You have the vacancy list, so if you have questions about either of those items, we can bring them up Monday night and then move on to lunch. If you have specific questions today that I might be able to answer, we can do that as well.

[02:30:30] I hear the lunch bin. Oh, okay.

[02:30:48] afternoon apparently mostly me so I'm going to take you through where I guess we're into the community vitality piece of the agenda so we're going to go through some of the items that are you're looking at over the next year and we're going to start off if everyone's good to go we're going to jump right into a community designated event we've reconvened after lunch so should we take a roll heading i don't think that's necessary i think if you could just direct

[02:31:24] the clerk to include in the minutes that mr smith has joined the meeting

[02:31:45] you want to go okay so a bit of background and this is this is partially an informational item and that item that will come up for you each year you have to adopt the uh resolution for community designated events that will occur in the 2025 calendar year um just wanted to highlight this will be before you in february two big changes that you're going to see on here uh la rexpo because the pavilion is closed for repairs la rexpo is going to actually move to um july this year from their usual April schedule, so we're working with Ms. Guzman on that one so that'll be uh she

[02:32:21] they they ended up not wanting to use the lawn while the pavilion was closed so she's moved into July and then Eric said I have to do this to scroll down even more uh the car show is returning to the downtown in September they're working with um HMI on moving that event back from the uh post that they were at the American neighborhood post they were out there but they're moving back downtown yeah so again you get this every year community designated events signify priority that these are the events that the council is prioritizing the bigger

[02:32:57] conversation we wanted to share with council today is really and this is a little hard to understand without the resolution but I wanted to set up a conversation about how we schedule events in the city the question already

[02:33:17] And I know it's related to this, so if the experience is stating, this is, you know, not our events, but the events that, you know, we're making a priori or that we recognize, I would like to see if this is the time or there is something wrong and we don't have two events at the same time.

[02:33:47] because this not only, you know, it takes the intent, it takes the effort, so if you are renting, or if you are, you know, you're having it at the museum, or you're having it at the pavilion, I believe those times will be broken, and I, you know, I'm just bringing the idea. The other That I know that I shouldn't step on it, but I will be getting perfect.

[02:34:13] It will be the Saturday, whatever Saturday event. We all support the market. The market is important for us. And I'm looking at, again, you know, for us as a city.

[02:34:29] If you are ranking the pavilion and you're ranking the museum for a market, it's competing with the market. And I, you know, I have no business on what they're doing, but this does set the priorities.

[02:34:46] So my ask example and my view of bringing to the table is like we need to look at whether we want to be having the museum available or we want them to, you know, rent both and pay that fee, even if they don't use it.

[02:35:06] This is a conflict that is going to fall on decisions being made by the staff, but they don't need that headache. They don't need that thing if we can lay out decisions as what comes to them.

[02:35:23] You set me up perfectly because those are the, that's exactly what I was going to talk about. So Sonia just covered it for me. So thank you. I was just going to say, the caution I would give is we use the term events, all-inclusive And there is obviously an extremely wide variety of events, whether it's things from the International Food Festival to someone wanting a wedding.

[02:35:55] A wedding, a museum doesn't necessarily agree with something going on at the Pavilion or anywhere else, but they're all lumped together. And currently, in the same rental process, they're all potentially co-equal in our process.

[02:36:15] So, I think one of the things, talking to stakeholders, we've got to come up with some, or enable staff to come up with some means to differentiate the levels of events, the types of activities.

[02:36:32] Right now, we're just throwing everything together and making the best. Mayor, if I may, I would ask you to let's get through our presentation, because a lot of the things that you're discussing is what we wanted to propose before you.

[02:36:50] of changes to the system and recommendations back to get the head nod because we all know if we make these changes there are going to be customers that we make upset. They are going to call you when they're the one who doesn't get a permit, so if we could get through this it might answer a lot of your questions and help with the discussions at the end.

[02:37:16] First off, when you're a community-designated event, you're using a pavilion, we do not rent out the lawn in that situation. That is the number one purpose of that resolution is telling staff, we have a community-designated event at the Harris Pavilion, but lawn is blocked off so someone cannot come in and counter-program or use that facility.

[02:37:37] It's really driven by resources. PD can't be in two places at once. And if you're a community-designated event large enough, we need to minimize the impact on our resources. So that's the primary thing that we're doing, community-designated events. So just to give you the lay of the land real quick, and I know this is a little confusing, but what you're basically seeing here in the color coding is how the community-designated events will play out throughout the year.

[02:38:03] So blue, just to – let me go to the next slide. Blue are the so-called signature events. Those are the big four that years and years ago, council said, we will always do haunted happening. We will always – no, not haunted happening, excuse me. We'll always do the, Doug knows it better than me, we'll always do the train festival, 4th of July, the fall festival, and we'll always do the Christmas Parade Santa Lights Manassas, the 5th and 6th in 2025.

[02:38:31] Then, council has added in there the other events that HMI is currently running, primarily First Fridays, and then the other city designated events are in green. So we take all of that and pencil it into the calendar. And in theory, every other day is available for private rental.

[02:38:49] And there's been some misinformation out there because I've had some conversations. Parks Department is not counter-programming, counter-scheduling events against what HMI is doing or what other folks are doing in the community. We make the facility available for rental. So, yes, there are situations, unfortunately, where I think you read is a good issue.

[02:39:09] someone's going to come in and do a craft festival then hmi just happens to have it the following week and it's it is causing some issues and conflicts on the lawn but the big change that we've done we've done two major changes for the 2025 schedule one important to understand we rent currently one year in advance so we're really talking about when you talk about policy changes this is what doug was getting at a lot of what we do is going to be hard to impact the 25 schedule if we can start making changes for 26. one issue that hmi has historically had that they weren't thinking two years ahead so we're really trying to move the conversation big

[02:39:45] picture to folks thinking not just about 25 25 is largely set as you can see and people have rented and people have paid and people are advertising their events but if we need to make changes I need to know sooner than later so they can get into 26 and we can start expanding on early so the two big changes are park rules we are limiting rentals to one per month per user so there were concerns and some of this was lawn overused but you know someone came into us for a food festival and said we want to rent 20 times this year and there was everything from police resources to trash to a lot of impact so we realized that the lawn

[02:40:23] has become incredibly popular as a rental facility and we are a victim of wrong success so we've implemented that rule to try to pull back to show you that it is working that group that requested 20 times is only able to rent seven times this year because once you pencil in all these dates and then you limit you know, how often you can rent per month, it starts to close this window up pretty fast.

[02:40:43] It looks like a lot more dates, but we're really talking about the weekend dates. The second big change that we've implemented, and this is going to get to who we rent to, is working with Craig, talking a little bit about, remember, as a government agency, who picking and choosing who we rent to, rather than trying to come up as a staff with our own formula or X number of food festivals, X number of, we instituted the concept of what is called blackout day which is essentially we're not renting to anyone on those weekends so basically if you go to rent for whether it's a wedding or a new food festival those weekends are not available to try to relieve some of the pressure from the lawn try to hopefully address some of the

[02:41:23] concerns we're hearing from downtown businesses that the lawn is being overscheduled so that's what we have as a pilot if you will for fyi 20 or 2025 to really try to start to address some of these concerns you know as a staff i think i've talked to most of you individually i only want to go so far administratively without without getting council's feedback on what our policy should look like and kind of to kind of continue what sonja is raising as an issue of how far do you go to balance out the obvious demand for the lawn and the pavilion to a lesser extent versus all the you know we have a lot of people who are interested in being downtown a lot of people were

[02:42:02] interested in renting so how do we balance all that out and make sure we're not you know a lot of unintended consequences so i think unless doug yeah one of the a couple of things um we probably should understand and it's a good problem i always say it's a good problem to have we we are extremely successful with our events all of them whether they're our event or an outside event the events that occur in manassas are extremely successful every other community in northern virginia is

[02:42:37] trying to duplicate what we're doing. Councilwoman Ellis and I, we were talking about this at lunch. Take the Bee Festival that's not even in downtown. I don't think anybody envisioned it to be as big as it is. Now Warranted is trying to duplicate what we're doing there. But the events in downtown, everyone on the outside realizes that they could have a successful event, but things that we've identified that came up as problems not only for us but each each of you received calls this year

[02:43:13] or events after our first friday we don't have the time to clean up and get the community the downtown area back in shape for the event so one of the things we have to look at in the future is the day after a first friday should we be having anything in downtown because we don't have the resources to to be able to get it fixed up and just pile on so we've all again moving trying to think a year in advance so that's what you need to be doing with this stuff the 26th where we've already started penciling into doug's point would be after a first friday we're going to black out

[02:43:51] and this is a resource issue and a general relief issue we will black out before the fall that weekend so harder than doing 25 because again people have already pre-rented but we're already thinking ahead to how you can make some changes. You know, best example of all is July 4th. We don't need an event showing up on July 5th. It's too much for resources to handle. What else? And that's where we are right now.

[02:44:20] If we could hear back, I'm sure you have three more questions. So we're still tracking, and this is another reason why you've got to think two years ahead.

[02:45:00] we are tracking the African in the festival they have expressed interest they haven't give us a final say in moving from August to June maybe 26 so so you have to start blocking off both weekend you have to leave it open as a city designate event we prioritized your schedule I do want to say there is a difference between having a 20 times market when we have a market than having an annual festival.

[02:45:38] So even if it's all the same, the first festival is not doing it every month, it's not the same as a member. So you mean like the Cannes Festival and then the International Youth Festival, that's what we're talking about?

[02:46:02] So, our community already has Thursday markets, and then they have Saturdays, and now it seems like this is two more markets. I know they want to be all the time, but my view is that if this is a full-blown market, it's not a festival, even if you call it a festival.

[02:46:29] It's a thin market export business and most of the other stuff that you have seen, like the African-American festival, they really know how to make, you know, money and, you know, I don't know, I don't understand all of them.

[02:46:48] So, if I can make sure I actually want to. Can I just clarify first? The way I understood that is, should we then approach those applicants, as you said, their market, right, and encourage them to be a participant in our weekend Saturday market.

[02:47:13] Go up, if you want to be a weekend market, be part of the market we already have, which you could expand that one bigger for them. Is that kind of what you're, a little bit? What I'm saying is that you need to share the funds, you know, they're all the ones once a year and I believe the reason why this is coming up is because it is so many it takes a toll on the on the lawn and all of this and it is no you know it's all on top of all the other

[02:47:48] events that we already have you know some of the feedback is that they you know they are very They are very successful, I don't know. They are very successful. Our business are known successful through those things. So I know some of the annual ones try to make sure that they do everything they can to have, you know, people through their business too.

[02:48:13] And they have communications. I don't feel like the old town businesses have been benefited from this market or the potential market.

[02:48:30] And I think that's where you're getting the feedback and the way that it's coming to us. like know that and you might hear about the longing and, you know, needing to rest, but I don't think that is, you know, the, that is one of the symptoms, I believe the biggest one is like, let us fail to be here, you know, be here and people is coming, but they don't come into the business, they come into the parking and the parking is full, people, you know, get to us and the people see the livelihood of that market on the show.

[02:49:08] I don't know if I have a position to fix it. I do want to say, you know, there is a policy there that needs to be out there and there is a difference to be played on whether you are a non-profit doing a heritage type of annual event or if you are, you know, a market when, you know, getting as many data from the council.

[02:49:39] To broaden out it's your private rentals. What you're referring to as private rentals versus HMI, which is operating a farmer's market on your behalf. So, and HMI has concerns because they're getting parallel. There's a craft festival that does the same thing for them.

[02:50:01] And then the private, your point, you know, the private rentals, downtown businesses don't see a huge benefit. They have concerns about parking. So you're really dealing with HMI on one, which is probably a future discussion with that. group about all the services that provide but then the immediate issue is really the impact of the private rentals and the blood is not the bigger impact on the private rentals is what I'm hearing is parking and we don't see a bump on the other side of the track so I guess first as you've been speaking Sonia do you think it's worth recommending that people that any

[02:50:40] organization can only rent once a year instead of once monthly I mean you know that might aid some of this problem I don't know that felt kind of like that's what you were getting at and then you don't have to answer I don't know that's just rhetorical right now but another thought a couple things about Saturday events while the farmers markets happening in talking to farmers market vendors you know they've talked about there not being much signage around the city that pointing people from the lawn to the farmers market or pointing people

[02:51:16] the parking garage say hey yeah you're coming to this but there's a farmer farmers market down here too you know you should walk down the block and check that out um i mean if that's something that we could put together i think our vendors would be happy to see that um but i also think you know to the to the extent of resources and over you know overcrowding whatever in the city um i mean might be worth saying that these rentals like the lawn rental can only happen on sunday so that it doesn't conflict with you know maybe the pavilion can still be one or both but maybe the lawn is only on sunday so that it doesn't conflict with the farmers market um and you know i mean i think it

[02:51:55] might be worth i think it might be worth recommending that these some of these groups can only come in once a year because i mean it you know they're getting they're getting a huge value um for pretty inexpensive and if this is the platform when i also recommend we raise the price for that rental that i'm happy to recommend that as well um and then my my last thought is for a question i guess um when when any general person is going to rent the lawn or the pavilion who do they go to they go through parks and rec through our basically our rental system and it's there's

[02:52:33] only one system like the museum does not have a separate system so the museum is part of parks and rec so there's one system for any city facility to rent and then if they go over 200 to the secondary process and they have to go through the special event process to get the larger permit thank you uh just for clarification um back a little bit to the no event after the first private this is downtown old and then in old town right where the events at met

[02:53:10] i mean the mechanism to implement it is essentially the park reservation system so the two main facilities you are renting in the city are the lawn and the pavilion but also liberia and annenburg also have event rental but yeah essentially you're talking not about if someone wants to go do an event outside of the outside of those those areas at this point i mean it's just focused on the downtown to your point okay so in this instance in the next parking lot would not be such a two to blackout i don't i don't think we i don't for one thing manassas

[02:53:48] city public schools runs it so i don't have any control over it so yeah it wouldn't be subject to there right there's the events and there's the private rentals that's i mean yes this high festival is an event they're billing themselves as a festival they are for your purposes a private rental of the city facility you know we don't you don't solicit them we take a fee they're big enough So we provide security and parking support, we provide trash support, and they pay for all those services.

[02:54:25] Just a couple of clarifications. Really the one big event that I can think of at MET is the African American Festival, which we are, this wouldn't be implemented until 26, and we're working with them to actually have that one moved to Juneteenth and downtown.

[02:54:45] so we'll know more about that event in the future so that conflict wouldn't occur. And two, what I'm hearing is that the majority of you are okay with us putting a plan together and limiting the number of events and developing a plan slash policy of doing that because, again, when we cut those things out, they're going to call you.

[02:55:13] they're not going to call maybe they call Steve you know they're not going to call us they're going to go to the elected body but overall I'm hearing we are philosophically okay with limiting the number of events in some fashion and coming back with a plan i've got a lot of head nods so let me just can i add then i think this is because we're going to get to peace with marcel in a second so i do i will be putting the park speed schedule together they're interested in taking a look at the lawn price specifically they're all

[02:55:52] priced the same $135 an hour for a private rental on the weekend so if there's interest in looking at something different for Liberia the classic forehead nod that I can include that in what I'm going to submit the lawn sell it. I pulled Alexandria there 500 an I would like to say there is already a system and process for a non-profit so even though you know I think the price will help with it because we have had to like dial back but at the same time

[02:56:31] as there's a non-profit they still have announced it's gonna be uh yeah it's 50% off yes so they I know we're doing it for following it because this year I tell people the calendar is open if you get to it and you do what you're supposed to do you can get the date and if it's block, it's rock and you know like there's some staff miracles that they can do to help you first time first time but if there is any open date when we do that something that has not been rented like the lawn on Saturday

[02:57:11] from you know morning until one o'clock if there is something that you can do i will ask if you still try to uh proactively do it that's something kind of what we're going to think about and uh and and get it wrong but my concern with this change is no not just market i mean i hear from the market and some other people but it's it's everything you know as a whole parking the traffic And it could be some of the concerns that we have heard at the, you know, council meetings.

[02:57:47] And when it comes to those meetings, I believe, I'm not seeing any of the solstice trying it out. It seems to be a complaint. Small business Saturday, direct complaint that you heard at a council meeting is recommended to be blacked out.

[02:58:04] That was a direct takeaway we had from one of your, you know, direct competitions. so we're we're trying to listen and adapt as we hear the various concerns free of private rentals all right so uh well first of all i think that's smart like as you said small business saturdays which then makes it incumbent upon hmi otba you know others uh organizations to be thinking ahead you know in the same manner that you're doing you know that

[02:58:42] tell us about toilet force forcing everybody to work a year in advance so you can put these things on and put nothing else the only way we said he can help you is you got to convey this stuff and if you do it in the December just before the next year and tell us all these new dates that's not that's not the time you know those sorts of things so there's going to be part of that so So, there's a differential on rental when it comes to nonprofits, correct?

[02:59:15] Your philosophy for a rental, event rental, is a 50% discount to a 501c3. That's what you have codified in the future. So, what you just said, a 501c3 gets the discount. Right. Not to go too far off topic, but, you know, a few years ago, we heard a lot of concerns from the cost of events.

[02:59:35] So, how could we provide some relief? So that was the policy that we recommended that council adopt at the time to provide some, you know, really to your community designated events to give them some relief on the feet. So it's also paying for police service and crashes. Do you ask for proof that there are 501c3?

[02:59:56] In some events, the Viking Festival, we're not and we're told they had to pay full freight and made a decision accordingly. And I ask these questions just because you're exactly right. There are different, under the tax code, different nonprofits, different parts, and a C3 are basically what are classified as charitable groups.

[03:00:21] They are truly, I think, what we think of generally, that you could have a 501c6 or, you know, a whole bunch of others along the way. And so that was going to be, we weren't doing that, that would be one. And two, that you do ask as part of that application, that they every year produce that to show that they are because.

[03:00:44] It was very telling post-pandemic what organizations were actually not non-profit. When we implemented the current fee schedule, the council said, you know, private, there was more than one organization that actually was not a non-profit. I applaud the thinking, putting that in.

[03:01:02] So, thank you. Thank you, ma'am. For the calendar, are we running Annaburg yet? This year, it is available for rental. It is now available for rental, yes.

[03:01:18] And yet, it was the ribbon coming October, so we're good. Okay, so in fact, the calendar, most of those events are in Old Town or Liberia. Are there any in Annaburg or in any of the parks besides METS?

[03:01:34] METS and the Bee Festival right now. They we absolutely encourage folks when we had some issues of the law and we talked about Blacks for Heroes Yeah, Annenberg is an alternate. So we are absolutely when people say, you know There's too many things going on in the pavilion lawn. Well, have you looked at Liberia? Have you looked at?

[03:01:51] Annenberg now so we're adding so to you, but you have four major event facilities really and that's the two historic sites Do you have that option for a smaller scale event? Like a blackout that's for all every place that we have in the city place that I am renting to the park system is blacked out. Because of the resources that we need.

[03:02:10] Yeah, and that, yeah, it's a big piece of it is PD resources. It's a big piece of it is parks resources. Do you have what you need? Tell them what to do. Thank you. Oh, that was fun. Ah, Marsteller. Okay, more parks and recreation. So moving on to the next item is the feedback. I'm not going to talk about it. Let me jump over here real quick. Your Marsteller Park community conversations from last year. So you have the

[03:02:44] report from the consultant um it was a really well attended event we had almost i think we had about approaching 100 people a lot of enthusiasm as icm has mentioned from the community for this event um first opportunity to open the building show off um without getting please take some time and go through the comments there's a lot in there we include in that report i should mention not just what happened that night everything that's been submitted online is summarized in there so we have had the consultant, the RHI team really distill everything we've heard today from the day we dropped the press release that the property was going to be going under contract. We've

[03:03:23] been collecting information. So we were able to get that into a draft report for counsel, the counsel here. I think the big takeaways, and then they'll get back into where you need to go from if you go to the executive summary. The big takeaways really are a lot of interest in athletic sports uses not a surprise the the single use most frequently mentioned though is a portable community rental space so that's one thing to keep in mind when you get back to my requests and then a lot of good ideas for future

[03:04:01] use that honestly will require additional city resources so when you get someone saying oh we would really love to move a fitness center or a maker space into the building those are gonna come we don't we're not we don't have the budget yet to turn those facilities over so back up here so the things we need to talk about in this direction we need for Marsteller so Marsteller big picture the fields are done fields are open and available for rental the ball fields the rectangular field in the back the building has been turned over in terms of really systems so we spent a lot of time on all the fun stuff like IT cameras the door badges all the stuff that makes the building a

[03:04:40] city's facility as opposed to the church's facility. That is all largely complete. We are at the point where we're ready to have a conversation based on what you've heard from the community on where you go with the facility. So the three things that I have before you today is taking a look at the staffing plan, and I can summarize in a minute what a staffing plan can do as currently staffed. In your FY current budget, you added one full-time recreation coordinator position.

[03:05:05] Brendan is hired. Brendan has been on board with us for the last four months. He's got a lot of ideas um and this will talk a little bit about what you can do currently staff so your recreation department is currently two and a half ftes now not enough to run a building of this size at full capacity if you're willing it's a big building i think as we were getting into yesterday so i'll talk you through that a little bit the recommendation on the fee schedule which i can get to in a second you do need to establish fees for the building i don't have anything to charge if you want to do that the community's notion of affordable rental space and then you do have to have a discussion about the facility name at some point that is a council decision we are getting

[03:05:44] mail from marsh teller middle school just so everyone knows delivered to us already so uh there is another marsh teller out there so do you want to have a conversation as a council about the name of the building at some point not necessarily today but that is a council prerogative to call it something besides marsh teller park and sometimes you know potentially community center so that's where we are right now just a little bit on the staffing plan and i'll pause you know so we're really you're talking about and this kind of goes to your scheduling question we were just getting into with other events so you're totally talking about a restricted rental schedule at current staffing so we're not gonna be able to rent the facility out with all that space nearly at the and this is a

[03:06:23] sample schedule so you're looking at much more of a office just much more of a restriction we'll have a building would try to have a building up available for operation but there's going to be a limited number of programs programs going to be open the doors bring the program in let the people out lock the So the notion of a community center where you can have drop-in programming is not something you can do as you're currently staffed.

[03:06:46] Your option two, you have three positions in your staffing plan but unfunded would be to add the additional part-time FTE recreation folks who will stand at the check-in counter who will be at the gym space in the back to oversee drop-in programs and have an expansion of programs.

[03:07:03] That does come with a price tag of around $200,000 as we're estimating. So for budget consideration, if you want to go and look towards opening the facility as a really five-day, six-day-a-week facility, you're going to have to have staffing for that.

[03:07:19] So it's going to be a much more limited facility, and we are looking and hopefully have some direction we can kind of proceed with being able to pilot some of these programs as our current staffing, but obviously council has some decisions to make on staffing as their larger budget discussion. And we do intend to have a second community conversation.

[03:07:38] It's going to be paired with a spring event out of the facility on April 12th, so there'll be a community conversation. The church is actually going to bring a little celebration with the church in support of our partnership, because it really is a great partnership we've had with the National Baptist Church. We do have remaining funding, so we do want to look at doing some interior improvements in the gym primarily, the gym floor.

[03:07:59] We would operate with existing staffing, and then we would open in some form or fashion, depending on council direction. our goal would be september of this year to open it up as a facility and you know it can look anywhere in between with how we go with staffing and how the numbers play out i do believe this would be one of the items i think we need to i'm going to use the word push maybe not the right word that we need to push you on to get some direction on um we did purchase the building for it to be a

[03:08:32] public space we need to move forward in some fashion so you are not you we are not criticized that my community center can't even open at this point so even if that direction is i'm gonna call somewhere between the two you know for the first year it would be my recommendation we need some space to start programming out some of these community spaces and parks and rec

[03:09:03] opportunities. But first of all, what don't we have access to under the agreement there? For the next three to five years you do not have access to the auditorium. The auditorium is still rented back. You do not have access to the Wingwood Preschool and the warming against the preschool. That wing with the preschool in it and the warming shelter is operated in the back by the church so those three facilities are not available for the next three to five years a lot

[03:09:41] of interest in the auditorium but it's off the table oh yeah the courtyard that's part of the play that's part of that's part of the preschool facility thing the center courtyard with the playground is part of the preschool footprint and is there a timeline since we reasonably purchased this was a fire station where does the fire station the demolition fire station construction start that's later weekend retreat when we go through our tip you you this body

[03:10:20] making these decisions and prioritizing our finances and the projects we have on Okay, the question I had for you was when you just finished, you know, you finished where you want some direction and, you know, you shared kind of a thought that you had. So you did say that sort of gradually, what do we need? What do we need now? I mean, I hear

[03:10:59] staffing plan of one person right now how would we how would we get how are you going to determine what if we go with the first staffing plan option if the one person opening door whatever how do you determine how how are you thinking of getting started with who comes in first you know have an application process or what have you and at the lottery or for the rental side i don't know if i have you thought that through yet but the on the programming side it's going to be basically the the parks department, working with, spending a lot of time in the community, kind of continuing to engage with the community on some of the things we heard here.

[03:11:39] So, you know, sports is a big one. So we're having conversations with some various basketball coaches, as an example, and who might be able to offer a clinic. So it would be part, it would be part program to be somewhat contracted because, you know, we would basically pay the person to run the clinic.

[03:11:55] So we've done that. This is an example of what we do. So we're going to continue to really build it out. kind of the way if you think about how park and museum programming operates right now we set up a program we either bring in someone to support us from the outside of the staff does it themselves but it was basically a version of how you see museum programming occurring if you will so it was for this week the recreation side of the shop okay and there has been some interest from groups to you when i you know you i'm sorry i'm stumbling here a little bit but um you said that

[03:12:32] The number one interest was affordable rental space here, but there are some groups that are looking for, for lack of a better word, a home. And we have been very direct with, and it's a lot of our arts groups, we've been very direct with council needs to make a decision before we start to discuss whether it's their nonprofit funding in lieu of, and what they're looking for is space and for free.

[03:12:58] And we've said, we hear you, we need to have conversations with council about what that looks like. So the fee schedule that we're kind of looking at right now is, again, looking at those higher rates for the big spaces. But the classroom spaces, which are really just middle school classrooms from circa 1990, being able to rent those out, again, with your 50% philosophy discount for non-profit.

[03:13:21] So essentially $30 an hour. And we're really on par with the most similar facility we found out there is that one in Fairfax, Virginia, which is also a converted middle school. So they're also, we were looking for kind of comparables for what the space is. It's not going to have all the AV that you're going to get from a modern community center as an example.

[03:13:39] But yeah, there are a lot of groups that we need to have continuing conversations with them and then with council about if you're going to start waiving fees. And the auditorium, when that comes online, it's going to put a ton of pressure. I know the arts groups are very interested in that facility, the ones that are having issues with pricing at the Hilton.

[03:13:56] So there's a lot more to come over the next three to five years. But the other one that we talked to a lot, Tom knows, is the Friends Library. looking for a space that might be an interesting one to explore sooner than later because they're currently in the back of that and we could get a little bit of library in the facility so more it's going to be an ongoing process i think is the answer and we're going to have to really work with these groups one-on-one i don't get the impression that council wants me to waive fees for every organization in the city and you're going to get a lot of those questions but um i would recommend you go with you know staff has recommended you go with a you know the setup

[03:14:34] up schedule see how it works for rentals and then we you know evaluate and you will certainly get feedback if our prices are too high or too low as you all do I think every day we don't we don't do that currently like the park does yeah we've always taken more of the approach of the nonprofit approach so you can do it any way you want but quite honestly but eventually do we need to go to a resident non-resident fee structure possibly but I can't tell you until we're doing something more in the building if this is this is our recommendation right now does it need to change I very well could be back to you

[03:15:12] in a year and say dogs do it what we're thinking adjustment do it a different way one last thing you made mentioned that there was a similar community center in Fairfax which one isn't at the Green Acres Center is the one that we got really that's how we when people say how did you come up with $30 to get that question we were benchmarking again that facility someone that's more of a converted school um we spent a lot of time with parks here parks and rec they have some really nice converted school facilities when we were kind of exploring this so yeah you don't want

[03:15:46] to go with some some of these centers are much nicer thank you for what they offer thank you my mayor um and i don't want to bring it up because it's there you know is there a possibilities if you go out on the price every location is different and I'm not trying to get into the business of each location has a different price but I would like to see especially going

[03:16:18] out on the price for the lawn or for the pavilion if you have more than 200 people you know that the price is different if it's all the same you know a city resident is having you know a wedding you No, it doesn't take, you know, from the business or from any subprime event, and, you know, like, I want to make sure the residents see the benefit of the investment that is, you know, worth it.

[03:16:49] And, I don't know, maybe, you know. You've granted, my staff and I've already had the exact same conversation about what is a good cutoff. Everyone in the community is comfortable with 200. That triggers a special event permit. That's probably, don't be surprised when you see that in what I submit for the final feed schedule, especially for the law.

[03:17:06] that's the logical punt, and it will help with some of the weddings who will be very unhappy if the cost increases, and they'll let me know. I would like to have a one minute, I would agree.

[03:17:21] I know you're close to see, but if you talk about, you know, before we come, I mean, they expect $2,000, but I mean, other products, you know, they don't take too long, you know, So I'm just, the capacity, yeah, even though you're looking at the loan as, you know, bigger, and, you know, for four of July is the best support, at the same time, the capacity that comes to, you know, the top and then it's still there.

[03:17:50] Yeah, I would look at that 200 number, both because also the PD can back us up because sometimes people budge their event numbers one way or the other. So I think you're triggering, and it's a very good cutoff, and it's one that I, yeah, not to preempt what I'm going to submit to you, but that's what we're talking about.

[03:18:08] internally would be a logical way to cheer the face and something the communities understand at least those were in the event business go back to my asks where am I where's my discussion yeah council this direct discussion and direction would you just say I'm back to the council of discussion and direction so if you forehead nod that you're okay with us at least in this budget building

[03:18:45] in, whatever that looks like, for us to program in moving forward in some fashion that we believe we can afford in this budget. And then we'll come back to you in the budget process and in your work session you can either enhance it to the next phase or say cut it out we're not moving forward. But we intend to build something in there.

[03:19:12] No part-time positions, by the way. We've got your head on. It's good on the fee schedule. Here is the plan, put a plan together. This is the beginning of the plan.

[03:19:29] We're going to take a look at the revenue and the budget to see what part of this we can actually do. You'll hear about it. What you're talking about right now, we're talking about putting money in the budget for staffing or for renovations?

[03:19:47] You have already appropriated money to do additional renovations, we have a little bit left from the building turnover so i'm fine to i can do a little bit more with like the gyms for example that means a little tlc we're talking about staffing specifically one to three to go where doug is going one to three part-time positions depending on what di can afford but three is 200. 200 000 yeah exactly that's your full all in is about 200 000 with benefits.

[03:20:22] Within this, I mean, they're pretty small, and I know you're looking at programming, but is there anything that can be advanced and that can be done, you might already have it, in regards to the bathroom issues and the ongoing issues, and I don't want, you know, I don't want everybody to have to spend time on that.

[03:20:50] I do worry about, you know, we are doing good, but at the same time, it sucks, and for everything that happens there, it may cause the residents to feel like we're not doing our part, and it may just have been the last person to use the bathroom to mess it up, or, you know, do these things.

[03:21:16] no i'm talking about racism about i'm talking about maybe people that come too or you know or people that have nowhere to be i don't know it's a it's a multi-part so you know we are attempting vandalism is a significant issue at the billion that's unfortunate in the bathrooms we've taken some steps like restricting overnight hours you know who can be in there overnight to try to reduce that but it's a work in progress um we are looking at additional cleanings for events that's one thing that we're going to do we started looking at it but so for community designated events you need a midday cleaning having them clean it getting in so we're trying to enhance

[03:21:55] our cleaning schedule we have the pavilion under construction so we're going to double check our power need you did already replace the lighting and the sound system so that's all brand new so we're we're definitely trying to keep up with that facility but the vandalism is something that that we are struggling to stay ahead of it, especially in the restroom.

[03:22:14] I'm not, I'm not, I'm not asking for lunch in the first thing, I'm just, because we are talking about the other side. That's what I'll tell you. I'll bring it up. I don't know. And if you feel like, I don't even know if there's the police, or is it parks and recs, or, you know.

[03:22:40] All three groups. The outside. Yeah, or is it the outside, you know. we only implemented overnight closure in the fall but you know one thing we had to do because we literally prop in the bathrooms open cleaning crew won't go in because there's someone in there bathrooms are dirty in the morning then the event shows up you know my staff's trying to clean it don't we have to call in our on-call buildings around so it's that facility is a challenge it's

[03:23:10] popular but you know it's also being used by the community good what's next am i next again your gmdl oh good boy this is parks day i forgot i did all this at once sorry i have a whole report here it's going to take a minute i think this is my last parks item right both all right

[03:23:45] guidance on what to do with the annual license for gmbl gmbl the gmbl received an annual license from the city every year for the use of the eg smith facility do not pay fees that's why council has to approve a license every year to waive those fees um for discussion and we've talked a lot about the eg smith facility and the overall dispensation of ball fields over the years um here's where we are right now so you do have to they're about to start their season we do have to give them a new license staff's recommendation is to continue that license uh for a full year under the same terms

[03:24:23] they're literally registering but what we wanted to do really beyond that is get guidance from council on what the status of the current arrangement is what it looks like and where council might want to go with it or if there is an interest in taking a look at it and the numbers we just want to put up for you is what it costs in rental fees if they were to go into the league system they would still probably be the number one renter in the city they already are that we're already renting all those parks, but we are forgoing about 270,000 fees based on last

[03:24:55] year's usage, and they do pick up a significant amount of the expense. So when you net it out, you're talking about $150,000 subsidy right now. And then we did conclude, because as part of the athletic field process, they provide us a roster. They are currently about 16.7% city residents, so I get that question a lot from the community members account. So those are the numbers. Again, head nods that we want to move forward as is for a year and then is there interested in looking at the screen yep that's correct that it comes before

[03:25:31] council because it has contained a waiver of fees that are normally paid and staff cannot waive those fees only council can waive one difference in the proposed license and the ones from the past is the ones in the past had options for renewal for three years. And it was timed so that the license would not extend past the date when Microd might exercise its option to purchase these fields. This is different in that there's

[03:26:06] no option to renew. It is one year and one year only. So that's an additional difference. I honestly, one option out there where you could say include the options like we have done in the past and we don't we're not interested in taking a look at the license any further so we'll just go with business as usual one year or one year renewals so you have a couple things but but the biggest thing was to we haven't really looked at these numbers in terms of you know cost and expenses so I wanted to put them out there. And then to build on top of that I'm going to tell you now my statements could be very unpopular. You were subsidizing Prince William County

[03:26:45] resident $150,000. That's what you're going to say. It's less than 15% or 15.7% 15% or city kids. So basically you're subsidizing county residents for the use of this thing. Well I would very much agree with just the one year and keeping it as it is. And with that one year I think there's two full conversations so one is with GMDL I mean this isn't likely to continue at

[03:27:22] this level nothing what is you need to be where we need to have discussions and at the same time if the county is serious about having their conversation this is this is the chip in those discussions and that reality of the situation and we we at least will be the big people not just arbitrarily act if we want to all of our parties get their warning and have a discussion but

[03:28:00] we need to react whether there's an affair of best interest to residents of the city citizens of that yeah so when I make that statement you know remember I'm looking at this as the city of Manassas and what I can do there because that 150,000 just paid for the previous conversation and more so so um that's how i look at how many kids did send to me they their fall membership was 470 but they provided us 472 registrants and 79 of those

[03:28:37] because we go in they have to provide us their addresses we verify as part of our allocation for the rest of the city parks we check every address to make sure the city resident that came out to 79 in fall of 2003. i don't think we have their roster but it's been pretty consistent below 20 percent for a long time as far as we know how much they save under this fund so what would be with 270 it's the the total all in on rental fees would be 270 there's uh the concession stand is

[03:29:12] in there that's about 40 000 there's if they were to go into our adoptive field program they could save money there we have any any league if they adopt a field we take money off the fee for providing maintenance so there's ways you could get that rental fee so you're talking 200 to 240 is probably what you're talking about in revenue if you if they continue with the adopted field I haven't had a conversation I assume they would but you know that we're not gonna have a conversation till we had a conversation with y'all so yeah and the expenses they are picking up they know they cover the utilities they do some of the grooming the couple grass so some of

[03:29:51] that stuff would come back into the parks in the building maintenance government you get to 240 and quite honestly one discussion point without getting too far ahead of ourselves the concession stand I don't see anyone else I'm certainly not interested in operating a concession stand for the park system so you could talk to GMBL about that's a you've seen from their you know financial that's a that's a big revenue for them so maybe that's something the city would be interested in not charge you know you can do a version of the license where we don't charge for that because realistically what other what other organizations didn't come in

[03:30:30] and want to operate that but those are we need to get to go ahead to have the discussions with the MBL and I think really a shared service in the form Sorry, I have a few more questions. So, my biggest concern is they know even half of the residents are 16.7% that's where I'm trying to figure it out.

[03:30:58] So, we weigh that and they will settle that our expense is $35,000? Yeah, they're giving up utility costs and motion maintenance. maintenance that's why it's about a little less than a hundred thousand they're absorbing and stuff that we would have to do if we were operating at like any of other ball field

[03:31:48] ball field rentals or not that that's events different from events we don't we have a fee schedule for ball field rentals separate from that so my ask will be that you know it's 79 you know city residents or families whatever way you want to get help me I would like to see that at least you know the expenses are covered so at least even that probably you know, for the future. Otherwise, you know, they do the expenses and we figured out how

[03:32:25] to exempt or make a fee for, to give them a discount for all our families, our residents, because our residents are the ones, you know, paying for, you know, for the maintenance. Yeah. At the end, you know, out of, if it's 35,000, out of that 35,000, I mean, it's really only giving 60%. And I'm not about, you know, 50, I mean, 20, whatever, but it seems like it is fair or reaching out to the county so they can pay their fair share on the fair

[03:33:01] services. And they are the largest league in the city still. So when we put all the other, we know that the process we go through every year and you have all the other ball field league, GMBL is still, those 79 kids are on the park side. Those are, that's our

[03:33:17] largest ball field league in the city. That's part of the point I was going to make is that if we had 27 or 80 kids involved to get to 300 or something, we certainly don't want to be given the impression that, sorry, it's only 80. They're not going to provide baseball fields for 80 kids. So our focus really is identical for my kids. I'm not opposed to having these discussions with them, but conversations in this year

[03:33:54] And it just sounds like let's start farting the water from GMBL. Let's not forget we have 80 kids, hopefully 100, it may grow, I don't know, but we do have 80 city kids that are benefiting.

[03:34:10] I'm putting on my heart to rec out, I absolutely agree. I mean, you still need to think about the services, the recreation that you're providing to city residents here. And, you know, I think the conversation is really to have a conversation with GMBL very much to see us coming back with some form of a different form of placement.

[03:34:25] Yeah, I'm not supposed to go forward, explore it, I just don't want to do sports, but I'll give it, and if DML takes out their 300 and something and go play in fat back, we still have 80 kids. None of this is about taking away all the funding, it's just doing the pro rata proportional.

[03:34:49] I understand all of that, but I was told, does any other teams or just pick-up games or whatever take place on the Smith ball teams?

[03:35:10] We have the ability, unfortunately it doesn't work very well because it's how they schedule, we do have the ability to use that space, we really don't. It is an exclusive facility for GMBL for all intents and purposes. That's another thing. One of the things I want to talk GMBL is a better way to use that surplus time if it's available.

[03:35:33] And I just don't know enough about the schedule to tell you how much is available. That is a challenge we have right now. There's no way for a resident to really easily pick up the extra hours of one of those fields. I mean, for GMBL, they're investing a lot of maintenance. So to have a pickup game come in and destroy field six, they're saving the field would be an issue.

[03:35:53] we have to we have to work through them short answer is we don't have any way of accessing that yeah and that's maximizing your assets you have six ball fields in really good conditions so you know how do you how do you maximize that not for other city residents potential i don't know the answers to that today so there are six ball fields that that's spent why are there additional city

[03:36:23] rentals at the other part that's what they need they need more than six how how much is those those additional five parks you know when i say tied up used by gmbl um i mean just that i don't have the hours but you know it was sixteen thousand dollars in rental fees to show you we're renting premier field fifty dollars an hour so that we don't have much of those but so the much lower price you can back into how many hours that is fairly quickly they have they

[03:37:01] are they're big and they're they are bigger than the g the uh g smith okay no no i've been at the end of the day my concern was that no you know no making money but at least no having to pay for um the county when we already know you know what the county is trying to do to our residents and they're all in order maybe that task force can be a you know a great solution

[03:37:39] for the people and at the end you know we already have regionalism and ways to to resolve that but i do want to make sure that today and in the future just like i have kids uh they you know we take care of the kids the kids and they do you know what uh what they want you know, and be able to participate.

[03:38:04] I think council has not only done it and said it, but we can look at the best thing in March 7. We're trying to supply and make sure that we have plenty of fields, so, you know. But at the same time, you know, as we look and make compromises on the budget and other places, I don't want to, you know, go higher and ask more from the residents to fund a bill that may continue to grow, then it should be funded by the fund.

[03:38:35] I agree with your recommendation to renew for a year. And that we should push for meeting with accountants for the shared services. I don't know if they're going to come back and say, "Well, we give you all access to football fields.

[03:38:55] We give you access to the soccer field." I think that might be their argument. On the recreation side, the county generally operates in a business, it's a business, they make money to cover the cost of their operation, so I don't know how much, I don't know, conversations have passed about reciprocity and, you know, fee reductions have gone, both of them I had, both parts and building permits have gone nowhere.

[03:39:26] Counties operate their finances in a different way when it comes to fee-supported services. a shot. Yes, absolutely. Are you aware of any sports league in Prince William County that uses county facilities where the majority of players are Manassas

[03:39:57] sitting rest. Yeah, there's only one possibility, the Grizzlies, the both of the districts. That's the thing. The NBCC, the filter, we still there, but now everybody says, and here, you know, it's by no way more than, yeah, Macroxian Street, and they also say that Macroxian Park has a, and they also say that, uh, like the water part, uh, flush down. So,

[03:40:40] So it's still never going to be more than . And they have business, too. Thank you. Thank you, Scott. I have to do the license that Steve came on, Doug.

[03:40:59] That was for you. Can I pause? Can Doug or Steve, can I get a drink of water? Do you guys need it at that time? I thought you were doing it fine now. I need a drink of water then, Mayor.

[03:41:15] Yeah. Okay, just a quick, quick five. What was that, Rick? Okay, perfect. Probably tagging between Mr. Burke, myself, and Mac jump in here at any moment because all three of our departments have worked on this.

[03:41:32] It has to do with neighborhood, public works does the permitting, and, of course, police department does the enforcement side of this thing. I'm getting ready to set this up for Mr. Burke, but I wanted to give you some background. As each of you are aware, we heard a lot about Zone 1 parking, and the, let me use the word, over-parking, not enough parking for the number of permits, concerns of people wanting to reduce the number of permits, that you hear from others that do not want a restriction on the number of permits.

[03:42:11] clearly we have we i think we all agree there is a problem there's more way more permits than available parking and you had asked us after a couple of the town hall meeting and a couple of regular council meetings and people speaking up to come back to you and have more conversation so that's where we're at today uh similar to what matt said about events what if you decide to do something different. It would be our recommendation that this doesn't take

[03:42:46] place until 2026. It would take you that long to more importantly notify everybody and give them an opportunity to find other means and then of course we administratively we have some things with the Treasurer Police Department that we'll need to do accordingly. Mr. Burke do you want to take it from there and add to it?

[03:43:09] Sure. Thanks to Matt and Patricia for getting these numbers together. It gives you a pretty good indication that the number of permits that we're issuing is well beyond the parking capacity at any given location of where we've established the zone one.

[03:43:25] And as the Chief was indicating, just due to the fact that there's an over an excessive number of permits that have been issued, we would recommend that the council consider something similar to what you had done in GTS where there's a limited number of permits that would be available to any individual.

[03:43:51] You can kind of see around where the green zone ones are, the lighter blue is the areas where there's zone 2 parking districts already established. So what we would anticipate is that the impact to a reduction in the number of permits would not necessarily affect the neighboring neighborhoods.

[03:44:17] vehicles that aren't parking in the zone one area right now are already finding locations beyond where the zone twos are so i don't know that we'll see an increase in the requests for zone twos beyond where they're at now but that is there is the potential that there could be a some request once this is adopted.

[03:44:50] Just again, trying to give you as much background as possible. Matt and his team and other city staff have also worked with some of the HOAs that have the ability to add parking on their property.

[03:45:09] So as an example, Bristow Station has an RV lot or trailer lot, whatever you want to call it. They could regulate that their own way to increase their parking and again I'm just going to use Burstow Station as an example. If they have two assigned parking spots in front of their townhouse and then, as an example only, you limit the number of permits to two per household, technically that townhome

[03:45:46] could have four cars, two interior, two out on the street. So, you know, that's still a lot of cars for one town home and community that wasn't designed for it. So I think that's what we are looking for, to hear your, really your discussions amongst yourselves of what direction and then provide a direction back to us if you want to put some kind of limitation on the number of permits

[03:46:16] that can be issued per housing so is there you you Steve you reference Georgetown South which as I know is a little bit different because all the streets are public as opposed to these situations but in there the limit was no more than two vehicles to an address you added up vehicles had to be registered and all that sort of stuff so is the thinking let's just pick up Bristow

[03:46:53] station for a moment where the onsart parking is 175 that as many as since there are 505 units that up to 105 parking passes might be sold as long as each pass goes with a vehicle that is registered to address in the bristo station neighborhood or is the idea that only 175 parking passes

[03:47:30] would be available and sold either first come first serve lottery whatever i will i will i'm going to take that that's okay um unless you planed on creating your own bristow station parking district that methodology doesn't work it cannot be a generalized zone one so if we're going to use that methodology then you're going to you're going to have to establish um individual parking zones

[03:48:03] for each one of these communities, which management of each one of those on our part is going to create a little bit of a part. Matt, any of you, have any of these HOAs approached the city staff asking for a specific parking district unique to their neighbor?

[03:48:28] Bristol Station has. I just the philosophy back here, just to give you the historical context, is GTS Public Street. All these neighborhoods were built and designed in the 1960s and 70s with a standard that's lower than what we would approve today. So around two spaces per unit. And they all have private parking as opposed to GTS. So there, I don't, it's hard to understand why you would want to, in the administrative as a whole other conversation, why you would want to create a Zone P, a Zone EOW, Zone B. They're all, you know, historically

[03:49:05] designed functions the same where there is very limited public street frontage. It's basically a small amount of public street frontage. The majority of the parking units is still designed to fold it up. So before they did the addition, Gristo Station has 1,059 private parking spots already for their unit. So they're about, before they did the addition, again, two years old, they had 49 surplus spaces, and they've added more. So these are all the same and from the context of how they were designed how little

[03:49:36] public street furniture they have that we are making available to me I'm gonna separate the two outside the box. I don't know where Tom is at obviously this is not a point of a GTS situation and I do think you if you're going to do anything you're going to have to accept that you're going to create a new park for one or more of Otherwise, there's no point to the exercise.

[03:50:15] If zone one doesn't work, we know that. So if you've got to change it, you're going to have a new parking business. And you almost are forced into a lottery situation because you've essentially got three to one ratios.

[03:50:33] So one out of three households to the wind is right to be able to park a car. Or you don't enforce anything. It becomes a wild one. station i would argue is a little bit different uh geography is different the situation's different their amount of parking is different frankly i've got more parking for you for munich than point woodford to me at bristo station and i know this is radical and i'm curious i would actually argue

[03:51:09] that you the city seed or contract confederate trail from the first of you know the side of Confederate Trail in the Bristol Station Community, and that becomes a part of their parking book, and let's demonstrate. And it increases, so instead of 1,059 parking blocks, they've got 2,200 enchanted, or 1,200 enchanted.

[03:51:39] But it's administered by that, and we're done. I don't think you can do that at the other, at the 2.4. Confederate Trail just works so are you taking your idea are you when you say seating meaning the streets then

[03:52:15] become a good they manage the parking then the city would not be involved in any enforcement if you're like me you have heard from the HOA president with some very definite ideas that mirror what what you're talking about there and

[03:52:53] I just try to explore yeah the point was I think the geography you can't create which is the best of the news for lottery and one out of three of you not

[03:53:11] everyone will apply. The members would draw a lot. No way. It would be like the old draft board deal. The lottery would be done like Georgetown South as of July. You know, however system they would. But you'd have to have a unique part. And a Unite unique. Well, then they would they would handle how the sticker or hand tag or what have you. I mean, in your mind at this point.

[03:53:40] That would still be through us, in Point of Wood, but yeah, if you get right, again, I still think, Point of Wood, so you've got Stonewall, the main place where there is, on Street Park, I mean, let Stonewall down the middle between the two developments, all right, and, sorry, take that back on, bad idea, bad idea.

[03:54:09] Can we start off with, let's ask our attorney and solve the Bristow station or answer that question. Is there a way legally to do that, Mr. Brown? To turn it over to the HOA?

[03:54:27] The management rights of it, but the streets still belong there. You cannot do it if it's best discretion in a private entity. you cannot say we we've established a permit parking zone on this street for your property you decide who gets permits that that type of discretion difficulty we sell the street you can transfer ownership but yeah you can you

[03:55:01] true for any public street in the city that also includes right to close yeah so I'm saying if if you use an outside it's like contracting any outside entity you have to have very detailed standards about distribution of permits and how they're used and who enforces and all. It's not as easy, and I'm not saying this is what

[03:55:40] you were suggesting, but it's not as easy as saying there's a permit parking zone cab at it. Right now, it's going away, so if you have something for this, I would.

[03:55:59] So part of the complaints that I have heard, and I see the numbers, I acknowledge my, I I mean, the biggest one in Point of Goods went on rich, I believe it is, you know, but they see all these parking available, but they can't park there, but it's not theirs, it's not theirs, it's not theirs, it's not theirs, it's not theirs, so they say, because it's the street, and I'm not just, that's the one right, but I think this is Stonewall in Liberia, so they see their house, the single homes in front, and they feel like they should be perfect, and you know, I understand, but trying, for me, trying to tackle and go

[03:56:38] Going back to some of the complaints, there are people that have said that they have seen speakers with mayor complaints. There are people that have said they have seen partnerships. And I'm not saying, you know, the paperwork or administration is not like that.

[03:56:54] It's not like the enforcement part. There are people that have said there are different things, especially their complaints about dance or work, trucks, yeah, or work cars.

[03:57:13] They are beyond, you know, they have too many of us that want. So the reason why I'm bringing this up is because that could be something, you know, that we can do. I'm not saying band trucks, but I'm saying, well, if you have, can you look into it?

[03:57:32] It might not even be that many. It might not even resolve nothing, but I would like to see that. And after that, after that, I would like to use it so much work on the south, and we continue. And as you see, I want to say, not all of the extra parking was used.

[03:57:55] I don't know if I'm wrong, but it does happen. It's their way. I don't know if the secret has numbers. I know it's painful, but how can we hold, if they have that many, hold them accountable before we start reducing it?

[03:58:11] Because to me, I want to see it like it is. I want to try to make the best changes possible, but we have to fix it. In order to fix it, we need to give them an option, which, you know, the parking lot are locked.

[03:58:28] they can do the overnight, can people park over there? No, no, no, the farmers market is up. Can they park over there?

[03:58:45] So, I know it might have to be the section where the farmers market is up, but I don't know the solution. I'm just trying to bring, like, what can we do, where can direct them, how can we make So we're being scared to the resident, to the resident that has a personal car and they want to, you know, make it up.

[03:59:08] And not everybody will be happy, the changes will hurt, but we're trying to help the mayor or make it easier for them to do it. I think it will be very difficult, it could be more of what we see it, but it's just not, you know.

[03:59:33] My thinking of the, of course, my concern is the importance and how to meet Andre. But I do believe that there's some things that people can come to the commercial cars.

[03:59:48] There are people that, I think some of the complaints people, the cars. They leave cars where they were safe, where they leave the cars. And though they have the stickers on the street for a very, very long time, They were available for the federal travel, so if there is something, you staff can look into it and come back.

[04:00:16] That's my hope. If we reduce, we reduce, but we do have a few priorities like that. We don't even have one for a unit to look up recitation, but they already have two, so I'm not worried about it.

[04:00:35] uh but i do want to have something extra for them if they need it i just don't want someone that has three plans for work uh be able to park when you know another resident has this mile extra card right now because there is no limit on the number of parking permits you can apply for the way that the city has been handling it is that if i go in and i have a work van that is in my employer's name. As long as I can demonstrate that I live within one of the townhome areas,

[04:01:13] we the city don't view the work van any different from a personal view. If that is something that council would desire to modify, we can definitely talk about that. The problem that we have right now is just again the work band is the only band that I that I have if you are correct if we change how we are approaching it right now and saying that it can only be a personal vehicle and we exclude any of the work bands that

[04:01:53] aren't in the individual rent or a property owner's name that they will find another location for that and it could be challenging both for that individual as well as wherever they're able to locate it but that is definitely something that can be can be discussed and it is and I'm in we've heard those complaints as well so why are there so many out-of-state vehicles why are there so many commercial vehicles and that's right now just because we don't distinguish effectively between personal and in vehicles that are assigned to an individual that's working but lives in the town home

[04:02:32] neighborhood and that was done that was done by policy in discussion at the time with council because there were many residents that came forward to say this is the only vehicle my family I work for heating and air conditioner company I'm on call 24 hours I don't even own my own vehicle so I need a this is our family vehicle so we made those accommodations that take this but they have to be the driver's license and they have to prove they live there and then they must have a

[04:03:06] letter from their employer but that's what that vehicle is used for would it reduce uh the number absolutely it would some of the maryland tags we we do research this um some of them are leased vehicles so they're they may have a maryland tag but the lease is to the person that resides at that address um so there's there's a couple of things that are going on there that would help reduce those numbers only for race though i will argue if that's their own car they have to park well it's

[04:03:45] the same in in point of woods they every one of the communities in point of woods have interior parking so they could park it the problem is is the hoa is more restrictive than they we are in the HOA will not let them, in most cases, park those vehicles on the interior.

[04:04:06] So, I will say we have that from the HOA that could be another option, but maybe I'm too much in the list, I mean, bringing it for an idea, but I, for me, I don't want to see another, I don't want to see one more fixed it, I just want to see how we can fix and do between what they ask, between I and I, not supervising, but between policing it,

[04:04:42] and policing it meaning those people and then reducing that. I would like to say maybe those two will at least take us one, two, three years and see how else. I have to give the chief's report at the last council meeting in February, So I think on the enforcement side, I think when I give you the number of parking tickets, you're going to go, there's a lot of enforcement.

[04:05:11] Can I ask a magic question? Are you looking for a recommendation from staff? I'm going to call it step one of how to resolve this. It would be, again, from this point. I have a couple of questions, but it wasn't for now.

[04:05:32] I have a lot of, I was involved in this from the very beginning. a lot of history here. My recommendation back would be step one limit the number of permits for calendar year 26. You tell us the number that's two or three whatever you want. We evaluated that year to see if it's helped. If you need to become more restrictive the following year you can step it up again but it could be I'm going to call it in a stepping phase so we're not coming

[04:06:09] in with a hammer, so to speak, the first year, we can step it up as we move forward. It would be a little easier for your treasurer's office to manage with the permitting as well. It's also on the enforcement side.

[04:06:27] The police staff is already doing it, so there's not a lot of change there. But I do believe it is a problem. I think we can clearly see that. But I'm also a believer that we need to give our residents plenty of notice when there's going to be a change in to phase this in so they can plan accordingly.

[04:06:48] Because it takes some planning on our residents to resolve their issue as well. Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. Yeah, I'm sorry. I always press with each other remarks that the gentleman does not be an advocate, but I will be the gentleman's advocate on a couple of questions.

[04:07:10] And I have a couple of questions as we start this. particularly if the council is moving deeper into the weeds of mission permits and freedom zone, park and so forth. The numbers on the board, well, no, in determining, if we say yes, let's go to park permit.

[04:07:28] How do we determine, we use the numbers that too far for high school or however, if that's what we're based on, are misneeded? My concern is our formula is tainted in reality.

[04:07:44] i don't this is just a guest of all he did yes that obviously 30 to 40 percent just maybe more generally 15 have three full calls so we're basing a policy on what maximum number of calls that are supposed to be good and we know already i would change their 15 to maybe eight or five percent then we and so if we call them and say yeah they need 500 to lift we probably may well have 500

[04:08:18] So to deal with that part of it, as the master subject, perhaps we need to think in more detail about addressing the housing issue, not available housing, but housing policy, zone enforcement, right?

[04:08:43] Right? Before we can say, "Okay, yeah, this association is in San Francisco." Okay, point of view is you can have 700 projects in there. And as we sit, they might need 900. So, they come back six months later.

[04:09:00] So, I mean, so, but if we somehow, with a policy of control of the government policy, I don't have an answer to that, but then we limit the cost. Because two per car, two per house, four per house, five per house, And part of that problem is question is the single family homeowner, except for it being compact.

[04:09:27] Our single family homeowners are facing the same problem. And this is not making this a personal policy, but my street alone, I can tell you that there's four times the number of cars, four times the number of homes on the entire street.

[04:09:50] So my only point, I'm not asking you to address this on how this is going to be important, So my point is, we're starting from scratch with a false reform that's not based on reality like you did. I want to say that these stations have, for us, to be worth on doses, and I think they have been an advocate of the city, not only make sure that, you know, we follow up, because they are following up, but they have been pressing all these associations to make sure that there is no overcrowding,

[04:10:30] there's like they are doing their part already and and they have gone through I don't know several changes or they have practically made adjustments they were not fully um welcome or making everybody happy so I do you know believe that that would be great and I'm happy to hear that

[04:10:53] But I know that the team of the math and that department has actually got a code and they are doing their own policing. I don't know if the other two are, but that could be also something different.

[04:11:14] Well, one thing, if we start doing all of this, I think we want to be sure that we include representatives from each of the HOAs, because I would really, and I think the rest of us, be opposed that we do something here, and then we haven't consulted them along the way here.

[04:11:39] So it is somewhat of a collaborative process, but going back to Mark's point, whatever the solution, we do know right now, it is the wild west, and because the Christo Station HOA president has been more forthcoming and active and reaching out, I've been there several times and observed that just along Confederate Trail, what happens, a car pulls up, another car pulls out, they back the car in.

[04:12:11] there's never a chance for a car to get in you know someone else to get there it's almost like space is being held which is one of their their complaints along the way here there's not a and those cars can sit there for a period of time and by that means several days as a for instance it's not a coming and going every day but there's also is i think as doug has pointed out there's a capacity issues. How much are we asking police to come in and do all of this? When we started

[04:12:47] the process in George Pound South, there was a certain amount of pressure. What are you doing? What are you doing? Is this thing? And Doug, as the police chief, had to reassure GTS leadership that this is going to take time to kind of settle and work its way out here police you know parking violations or not have a ranking and they're not the highest ranking for for them to to deal with along the way there would be you know uh situations on that but i would

[04:13:21] still make the argument that if we do nothing it's a wild west out there you know it's just going to be there it will never get better leaving it alone the real question is is are there things that we can effectively do along the way and is it yes limiting the number of parking tasks i believe that is what the leadership of dristo station i want to be careful i'm not speaking for them but if i recall in their conversation would like to see happen and they and the vehicles

[04:13:56] preferably be they get a any kind of parking sticker be associated with an address in dristo station. But, as you say, that then means new software to do the parking violations, the checking, just like we did in Georgetown South, and there are costs involved. So, are there, from staff point of view, or council point of view, are there some low-hanging fruit, easy things that we might

[04:14:29] start to do, in your respective opinion, that could alleviate some of these pressures and be shared with the HOA leadership to ultimately see if we can try some of this along the way, before we go too far down a path one way or the other.

[04:14:48] Again, I'm going to speak, but we're going to be the enforcers. Technically, they're the ones who deal with most of it behind the scenes afterwards. I believe you have already identified the low-hanging fruit.

[04:15:05] And if you want to make two quick changes and then evaluate what those changes impact on the community, if you want to take the policy, we're not going to give any permits to non-Manassas registered vehicles.

[04:15:25] So it takes out the take-home cars. That would be one to see what that impacts. And then the second one is you limit the number of permits per household. So, again, whatever number, but we need to be honest, even if you limit to two, those houses can still own four cars, two interior, two on the street.

[04:15:54] I just ran the math on, so on these numbers, so there were 760 customer accounts, 98 of those had four or more passes. They're very close to Councilmember Smith, it's about 13% of the accounts are, and it's another hundred if you go who has three or more patents. So the large majority of the customer accounts are two patents. And then you're really getting into those two hundred other accounts that are getting into three or four patents.

[04:16:23] So you're taking two or three hundred cars off too? The Bristow Station, City Street, do they have any, can you put time limits on how long they can park there? Can we do that as a city? You know like you can only park between these hours. That's what the zones do now. Is it set up like that now on those streets?

[04:16:51] Tom had mentioned there's cars sitting there for days. Oh yeah, so the zone allows it to, what Crystal Station leaves, especially for me, is to guide the city to install parking and then the forest set parking. How do I do that on a competitive trail? Can I answer her question question that I think she has first so I can follow the conversation. Right now the zones after midnight you have to have a zone one pass. So it is a time attached to the zone

[04:17:31] already for that. So but between the other hours anybody can park there. I'm sorry twice well apparently with it what happened is a large company that was on one path real car they are part of the center for a week or whatever there's no churn or minimal churn on the street of on the hundred and seventy-five on street parking and this is the conversations I'm like I hear you you know and it

[04:18:10] force it. That's where I was going to be. The other extreme of, you know, go in. This is your fault. What about the street cleaning like they do in Georgetown South?

[04:18:29] You mean to have a, one day you've got a, there's no parking there first set out? That is an option. It doesn't exist there now, but that would, that is a mechanism to force people to move their vehicles at least one day a week. George Townsend request that is that why that happened it was kind of a joint between Public Works and Georgetown South just due to the sheer number of vehicles that are parked there it gives the city the opportunity and it gives the city the opportunity to. So it's working? Actually it even

[04:19:09] assisted us with snow removal because they're removing the vehicles from one I gave us a clear shot for clearing out the snow. So that is something else that we could consider for those locations where there's complaints about. What do you think, Tom? Since you live in that community, does things have...

[04:19:27] Oh, well, definitely the street show even makes people move. I will tell you that when I forget and I have that $50 ticket on my winch, I go, I have a couple of choice words and then I kick myself and, you know, you focus there along the way.

[04:19:44] And it does. The vehicles do move. There are times people forget or somebody along the way. Gustav police aren't always there to check that midnight to 7 in the morning or 6 in the morning. And somebody there that didn't have a permit on that sort of thing.

[04:20:02] It does keep the neighborhood. But to me, the real benefit, that's a great thing. The real benefit of street sweeping is it just keeps the streets clean. there's the inevitable trash that comes by and is thrown out the window across and so forth and you know every week there's an attempt to clean it which actually helps the whole appearance of the neighborhood here and i think for those of us who live there and you know try to pay attention it does create that pride and so you see something lying there you go ahead and pick it up and go not all the time so yeah two things that if you do that then there's an expectation

[04:20:42] that street's going to be cleaned by the street people once a week that's currently not the plan for what they do so you have capacity there so unless you're going to sweep it you wouldn't want to do that in my opinion two to address the cars parked there we have told the leadership of that hoa we have a park more than 48 hours without being moved ordinance if you have a vehicle that's parked on a regular basis let us know we'll come mark it tag it could be eventually

[04:21:17] towed if they don't move it calls we'll mark it and give them a ticket so we already have an ordinance that technically you're supposed to move your car every morning and they've been provided that and that give us a call we'll take care of it so it's not like what i guess the point of sharing that is we do address the issues that come up but we got to know about them as well right so we don't have the capacity to clean the streets we have one sweeper

[04:21:49] wow we have hundreds of miles of roads so typically for the residential streets we'll get there once a month or so gts and downtown get special attention well that's one one street right restoration can better it but then it burns like a shorter one if you look on kind of look there see how this life felt yeah yeah yeah that's what this is it's not as much as you say but

[04:22:25] who's other what other residential streets not going to get swept because now we're committing to that so then you're going to hear from that so i mean there's a cascading effect

[04:22:49] They all have interior parking at least. Matt, is it two of the Point of Woods that have an RV lot or just one? One of the East does, Cannon Ridge in Britain does, Bristol Station does. I'm not sure about all of them, but there's...

[04:23:07] Yeah, so two of the ones in Point of Woods also have either a trailer or RV lot that they built, but they will not let cars park in there. that our conversation with Pointwood East, that RV lot, because they have four or five RVs in there, and then they have internal issues they have to work out with who gets those spaces, but that's not what I would do.

[04:23:35] Well, I really want to do this, but if we were to have conversations with them, I think I will be open to limited to, even if they forget about taking out the outside space you know, other cars like that, but maybe I'll be willing to give it a shot, oh, I'll use to see for a period of time and to limit it to three, it's three, no more than three, how, how, well, what?

[04:24:13] It's two versus three, I mean, three versus two. Well, he said more than four is a hundred and-- He said they had a lot. That's 98 accounts they buy, came off of 401. So if you went to three, you'd only eliminate a hundred vehicles?

[04:24:29] So that's a combination of all the ones you see on the morgue, not separately?

[04:24:48] just going 4 and 1 because to route council members to the point, 12% or there's a home in there that's going 9-10 permits. I don't know if they have all 9-10 permits, but that's going to make an initial effect.

[04:25:04] I'm trying to think of making an impactful change, but no county's happening, so if we have to go a little more, we can.

[04:25:21] but at least, you know, that it shows a report, because I, like, when we talked about, um, we were talking about, uh, how many parties, how many rooms, like, oh, we have heard, uh, feedback and overcrowding and things like that, so I know there's, my solution was, mostly my personal view was, mostly, you know, changing, because, you know, if they asked them but we need to have a recommendation for you guys.

[04:25:56] I will be open to do all the after three. We have a bid on the table.

[04:26:15] After three, but forget about the commercial, forget about the place or anything. That way we don't have to get on the bid on those things. But I believe if you have one or two parking spaces and on top of that you have more than three, that's five, I don't, even if you have a five, you know, a home with five rooms, I don't, I hope I'm, I just want to pick up everybody, but I'll take four.

[04:26:55] i have three for two i'll limit the two spots for two passes i think i would agree with the round two like how many spots because you want to start with limiting information to get a plane going forward so what looks like

[04:27:28] so we've got a majority of limiting it to two but we're leaving the other policy in place for now if that could be a change you could implement next year if needed we've already talked to the treasurer we'll so just so you know this will be beginning calendar year 26 so the big part of this is making sure the treasurer's office is on point ready to go and then communicating it to our HOAs so they can immediately get it out to I'm going to call

[04:28:03] it their clients but their residents. Can I add to another HOAs? Sure! I have a whole day for a month. Why are you doing this? Can you please have those parts like give you an example for Christmas I

[04:28:28] I purchased five visitor parking, and my visitor parking, I only used one, and I only used one, and I saved my money, my $20, $25, and then when General came around, I had a visitor, I had to go buy a new, a whole bunch, when I had four, it was new.

[04:28:51] Is there any way with the dose, it can either be for two years or it can be used for a year from the day of parenting? I don't, I don't, could you look at it? I can give you a partial solution.

[04:29:10] It's the policy you would like to put in place. You could, you might be, let me talk to the treasurer about this, But it would seem to me the easiest thing is if you have a calendar year 24 unused visitor pass, you could trade that in for a calendar year 25 pass.

[04:29:32] That would seem fairly easy to me, but I need to talk with our treasurer's office, to be fair, and if the majority is okay with that, then let me talk to her.

[04:29:48] I'll get back with you with the answer. That seems like an easy one to one traded. Yes. Oh, that was easy. I can trade in there?

[04:30:05] Well, I guess just to prevent questions down the road, not that you can trade in and get reimbursed. It's just simply a swap. Yeah.

[04:30:21] this is the last topic for today it is housing unlike parking it could take a while so I'm expecting for us to again finish on time but that's good for us this is later than my previous years because y'all done a lot and we're moving forward with some things so I do this I've been doing this since June of

[04:30:59] 2021 periodic updates to council and where we are with our goal of enhancing our affordable attainable housing quality policies lay the land this year is your citizen satisfaction continues to drop as we heard from EPC that's not just a city of an assets issue but something that were all the jurisdictions in Northern Virginia and throughout the nation are trying to address its housing becomes more expensive uses just a reminder of where you are. You have quite a few things underway. You did do the fee ordinance last year. Planning Commission has the still looking at ADUs. That's something they'll revisit after we get to the

[04:31:36] comprehensive plan update. Council wants to continue thinking about that. You did approve the People Inc. project. We're working on financing. I have a meeting with People Inc. actually next week to see what it's going to look like to get that project on Prince William Street out of the ground. And that had a combination of retainable units and veterans preference unit so hopefully we'll make some progress on that we're told they're close on their financing you did create the housing coordinator position i'm actively recruiting haven't had luck yet had one candidate back out so we are actively recruiting because you do need someone to manage the breadth of these programs 2025 mr brown and i are working on your existing

[04:32:16] housing trust fund which is essentially an exercise in paper right now what that reconstituting that as an advisory board with potentially some trust funds some of the things the trust fund was previously doing so we have we have on our to-do list getting it back to you and then council needs to appoint that body once you basically re-enable that organization I will tell you one reason we're not moving as quickly I'm tracking very closely what Prince William County is doing with their trust fund because we have a real opportunity here now the county is actively talking about these issues and creating policies and solutions where we may even be able to

[04:32:54] buy into utilize some of the solutions that their trust fund comes up and so we would be able to work there's some good out there's some good momentum brought in the city going on and some housing easily doesn't really care where the lines stop housing costs we have an opportunity to see hopefully and I've had some good conversations with Joni my counterpart in housing at the county about if there's some opportunities here and reminder they're already administering our CBGG I'm gonna get that wrong our community development Block Red funding is already being administered by the county.

[04:33:28] And this is going to set the stage, and this is the last slide, set the stage for tomorrow. We have the opportunity over the next year to explore options within all of our redevelopment areas. So you're talking about Mathis, you're talking about MIPCO, you're talking about, and I saw a couple of council members picked up, we did get a grant from COG that looks even beyond the properties at what the long-term potential of some of these parking lots downtown might be.

[04:33:49] So in addition to the money you've set aside, your greatest asset is what the housing folks out there tell us is, what our housing trust fund told us is, is the land that the city is making these long-term strategic investments in. So conversations will need to be ongoing as we do community conversations at Mathis.

[04:34:09] Are we going to be talking about, when we talk to developers, is there going to be a percentage of units? Remember, in the city, demographically, affordable rental on the high end and the low end is where we are lacking units below 50% of AMI and then interestingly the the high end above 100 you know the high end luxury but we're talking about the low end today and then longer term we had a we did our pilot for as a benefit the Doug can explain it a little bit better the homestead the what was the program Doug? Down payment thank you so we would want to with our with our board back in

[04:34:49] place with our advisory board revisit what that program looks like we need to some more work with HR. Again, we're also told from city employees, renters, another thing that we haven't looked at yet. We're not there. So that's another item. We'll have to decide whether we want to proceed with an accessory dwelling unit ordinance or planning commission gets too far into the weeds on that one. And then there's longer term things to look at. We're doing a rate study right now, but the biggest cost of development is your connection fees, your TAP fees. They run into the millions depending on the size of the project. So you provide a fee relief for things like building permits already but and again not today not even 25 there'll be

[04:35:27] conversations that will need to occur about if there's additional areas you'd want to provide relief to new developers so um in the next six months we really our goal is to get the advisory board back and get the appointments committee to staff it up and get the position so we are making progress each year so stuff is getting done it's a briefer presentation i normally give this time of year stuff. Any questions? Will this be on one of our work sessions this spring?

[04:35:59] I think when we finish, when Craig and I finished up, what the reconstituted body looks like and we answered some questions about how much we needed the actual trust fund, but we're still going back and forth on about how much you actually need a separate trust fund. So the money literally is sitting in a budget line item, so do we necessarily need the trust fund to administer it?

[04:36:21] Yes, and then we'll bring it back to the work session before we put it on an agenda to re-adopt the board if you want. And when you say the board, you're actually talking about the actual membership of the housing trust?

[04:36:37] Yeah, an advisory board with new direction from council, then council will need to appoint. Right now basically staff sits on the trust fund and the appellate holders. We want to get citizens, residents onto that board.

[04:36:56] So I would like to say that the details are for, even if it's partially or the part of the current, I don't know if they said, I'm sure. Is there any way in the future that we can hear, whether we need, if we have a specific need for first-time owners, who is having the most challenge out there.

[04:37:32] I don't know if that's one thing that you will have. For me, workforce is very bold, but at the same time, it can only be a portion of that. And when it comes to future investment, I'm making a long-term decision for the investment that we made at the shopping center.

[04:37:54] I would like to see if it's, you know, I feel like I need direction of what the needs are because even attainable is a big word.

[04:38:16] And I know each council has worked in prior years on different things like, you know, the, what do you call it, the elder community and investing and making sure that those apartments were okay.

[04:38:37] I really don't know, so please forgive me if I say something. I mean, from the consultant presentation you received when we did the House and Trust Fund study, the current identification, we're really talking about when you look at rent phone again.

[04:38:53] So our need is rental right now. When you take a look at where we, when you look at costs, I'm sorry, the 30% of the cost of housing, it's rentals. And it's rentals, interestingly, not in the, when you talk about AMI, because remember AMI, which is when we do like a federal calculation, is looking at all the D.C. region, it's that lowest band.

[04:39:13] It's below 50% of area median income. And I apologize, I don't have one or a big number. So we actually do quite well in the 80% to 100%, but it's really that low. And this is going to come back to you whenever we start talking about it again in Mathis. Rental is the challenge.

[04:39:29] We have a first-time homebuyers program. Jeremy's going to walk out of the room. We need to continue doing a better job of marketing, and that's administered by the county. And so we do have that program. And we actually, and I haven't looked at numbers recently, but our homeownership rates are at or exceed the state level.

[04:39:47] So homeownership is actually, and then there's other things, and then workforce is certainly an issue, looking at city and school employees and what we can do to get them to live in the city. So there's a lot of different things you can tackle, but the renter is the big aha, because we've talked a lot about homeownership over the years, but the renters are really where these are existing folks, cost of living in the city, existing city residents trying to live in the city, cost burden, that was the word I was putting in for a few minutes ago.

[04:40:15] That's where we're seeing the biggest challenge, and those numbers change all the time, but When next time I can pull the chart up at a different time, but it's a really interesting It was a really interesting moment when you look at the number of units versus what people and afford and seeing it that low-income Bandit a real challenge for us and we're very small compared to the

[04:40:50] the data is leading you towards if we're the data is leading you towards looking at what you can do with some of your city property and set aside units that are you know are available for folks making lower amounts of income so if i can jump in here to be clarity so tomorrow when we start talking about some of the future um redevelopment of properties you i'm we're going to talk a lot about the set-aside is the word that Matt uses so you want to offer those

[04:41:22] opportunities for housing all those properties identifying a percentage of set-aside right it's an immediate action this council's taken to make a home affordable and I know different words are used and I am and I know of the minority of this. I'm a big believer in the city school employee housing program of expanding that because it could help your workforce of your city and it's

[04:41:58] kind of a commitment from them to stay with us until they reach that benchmark and that's we have a good pilot program we've already put put most of the legal work and documents in place you know how many have we haven't expanded that yet so that could be something you direct us to do that we could start expanding immediately and how much money did you want to put towards that program I only use the word low-hanging fruit because it's still a lot of work

[04:42:35] but direction you could give us to move forward on sooner than later I'll hold table for the morning. It's an interesting moment to see the numbers apply versus the demand. My question was to follow up. So about two, maybe three years ago, you mentioned this pilot program. We did it with the police. Can you update me and others of where things are?

[04:43:05] What took place? And is it still being used? And what have you? so if you remember the conversation was we asked for a set aside of a hundred thousand that would have been up to four people we had a total of three that applied one actually followed through with it um and i'm going to say this is a great success story because their wife is a teacher in the city so you were able to keep a police officer and a teacher who were already looking in fall care county for a single-family home and now they are locked in into the wellington community

[04:43:44] and the 25 000 that he will be quick to tell you is what enabled them to get that home without the 25 grand they would not have been able to get that single-family home so really successful there the other two one could not come up with the rest of the down payment and then the third one that decided that they were unwilling to commit for that 10 years as they were deploying other options so um for my conversations with staff um it's their the program excites them what i'm

[04:44:19] finding out with with our governor staff that's the only down payment they would have they they may have only saved five thousand like well i got thirty thousand dollars total you're 25 and the five thousand that i have so it's them getting out of we need to teach education and there's you gotta start saving for the other side of that and uh whatever the reason whether it's school debt or whatever they they just don't have the funds for the amount of down payment that is

[04:44:55] needed and that's that's what i was then wanted to follow up so are you finding as you go to these programs and seminars and so forth is that that is one of the major obstacles putting together the down payment and it's not the hey you know the money you know rental payment for monthly more certainly what the IT mentioned and then just all and that's how the price especially in the hallmarks it's gonna be a challenge even in the city and is the requirements generally still you have

[04:45:27] to have 20% of the sale price as your down payment. Thank you, ma'am. That's all I have to do.

[04:45:45] Wow, an hour and a half for all. So we can cover something else. You want to add something to your agenda or I know people still have a lot of emails and what to do. Do you want to end it for the day?

[04:46:03] Ms. Ellis is shutting her computer. I think I know where her phone is. to allow you to get caught up on things and allow us to get caught up on things before then. We're going to go to recess, Mayor, until tomorrow morning. Oh, we go to recess.

[04:46:20] That's what we're going to have.

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