Coraggio Consulting
Manassas City Council Retreat 1/25/2025

Date: Saturday, January 25, 2025
Place: Manassas City Council, Virginia
Length: 3h 42m (video)
Official meeting video (Wistia / RegionalWebTV): https://fast.wistia.net/embed/iframe/isvqgonen3

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-17. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:00:02] Mr. Smith, please call roll. Mayor Davis Younger, President. Vice Mayor Wills, here. Council Member Smith, here. Council Member O'Donnell, here. Council Member O'Donnell, here. Council Member Vasquez, here. Council Member Huston, here. Thank you very much.

[00:00:20] Good morning, everyone. Thank you for your attention the past two days. I do think we as staff have gotten a lot of direction from you, so we appreciate that. going to ask for your attention here the last few hours and in some ways this kind of wraps up your previous discussions. These are some important directions you need to give us on what you're going to hear today and it really ties into the next seven years of how quickly and what and how

[00:00:55] we as staff move forward uh so pretty pretty important stuff uh coming up uh with the discussions and we're looking forward to it and hopefully if we keep moving in the fashion and the order and the quick decisions like you have the rest of the week you may be able to get you out of here a little earlier than the scheduled time which is always a plus for everybody i think with that i'm going to turn it over before i turn it over to mr burke to begin um anybody have any

[00:01:33] questions of myself or staff actually i'm going to put you on hold mr burke first the first thing on the topic is airport expansion uh vice mayor wolf this was one of the things that you would ask me to add on here to have some discussion and you're on the airport board so i'll let you begin

[00:01:58] Okay. To me, the airport is obviously one of our key areas of economic activity. And to the degree we can encourage things like commercial service or Electra or whoever comes along, or whoever, to come along and create opportunities, create jobs, create tax revenue for us.

[00:02:30] the long angle is a great thing. The airport is landlocked, you know it's on the land, and there are apparently some opportunities now, at least potentially before us, where we get to expand the footprint of the airport, apparently there is some land down by the VRE station available and there's land across the creek, just the farms between the airport and Great Solar.

[00:03:05] and I think it would be move us to explore what we could do to add the footprint. I think this is sort of two-fold. Number one, it, you know, it's sort of like the landings are delayed for, you know, it's not for the here again, this is for, you know, 25, 50, 100 years of rise.

[00:03:32] allow opportunities that we can have a good control or anything so rather than be held hostage to the actual practice of our friends and friends. Secondarily, I lived this much smaller, much larger scale. Go back in history, you look at what DFW Airport was built. DFW Airport was built out in the middle of what we made. And then a bunch of homes, because it was a center of economic activity they put a bunch of homes around and those homes then

[00:04:11] started constraining the ability of the airport to operate you know issues like noise pollution and other items and the fact that the airport was there and i don't want to see a different situation it's not going to be during our likely terms but as we look at the long long-running horizon that's really important we can control our future and whether that's in the city or out of the city is getting sort of like the lake and to the county so we own it and therefore we can go

[00:04:46] and i just wanted to throw that to the council um and i tried to mention this at the airport forward the other day the first meeting i was at as a part of my agenda personally and i picked something i hope the council would uh would adopt or at least uh be willing to be open as opportunities to present themselves, be willing and open to season those opportunities.

[00:05:16] Thank you. This is something Councilman Walton and others have been talking about for over a decade. I've had several conversations with my counterpart at the county. There is state legislation out there called the Regional Industrial Facilities Authority that allows locality to partner on the acquisition and development of property for industrial use could involve revenue sharing christina wayne is interested in having those conversations on

[00:05:51] behalf of the county uh and if it's something the council is interested in then we can start having more in-depth conversations if council is not then i will tell her so

[00:06:19] that's all there's bad bedazzling uh i'm not sure pink or what have you took away from me no i'm sorry about that i was just going to to voice support for for exploring this uh along the way i think it'd be great to do some regional partnerships and and then as martha said this is really an investment clearly investment in the future as things go along but see what what might be done in conjunction with the county what what was the name of the thing regional industrial RIPA's regional industrial facility authority they're

[00:06:58] established by ordinance because the state's enabling legislation all this state legislative approval for the public hearing there has to be agreements that's all you know down the road but it is state legislation that allows for one or more two or more localities partner on as I said the acquisition of real estate the development of infrastructures of water sewer flows and otherwise so the parties would contribute according to their ability or desires whether it's

[00:07:38] 10% 20% 80% of the sharing arrangement is and then it allows you to share revenues off the property. So that property is in the county. If it were not in the city and you did partner with the county and set up a regional industrial authority, then, you know, if you put in 20% of the cost of developing the property, then the revenue sharing agreement might entitle you to 20% of real estate taxes, 20% of business personal property taxes, etc.

[00:08:12] There are several examples around the state, the Berryhill Megasite, Sanville, Fitton Bayton County, it's one, York County is another, so there are several of them, but the legislation is fairly new, that's five years or so. And then my other question is, currently the city owns all the airport, there's nothing to do, and so do we share anything with the county?

[00:08:43] if you read way, way, way, way back in the darkened panels of shared services, there actually is or was an agreement where there was some kind of rev share deal.

[00:09:01] I don't, I haven't, in preparation for me to anticipate the session at the county, I had gotten all the shared services to reach the staff and they were trying to parse my way through it.

[00:09:19] tedious at best. There was a 60s or 70s agreement that the county got there. Long time. I don't, I haven't come across any superseding agreement, but that doesn't mean the one doesn't exist. We're not following what the original agreement is. I can assure you of that. How we got from there to here, I don't know.

[00:09:53] But a part, 5%, 10% in the airport, is actually physically, that's why they have two seats in the airport. Good point. Thank you.

[00:10:09] Thank you, man. So what did the airport director think of that? Have you ever talked to them at all? I talked to them a little. It's stuff that they've looked at and explored over the years. They, I don't know what to say, as you know from your time on the airport.

[00:10:37] There's an element in the airport community that used the airport as a place where we can apply for recreation. I've always used it as an economic view, so I'm wanting to make big big explority.

[00:11:00] The other piece, frankly, is always using the money, and the RIFA availability opens up and avenues, where the city will drop money, but they will keep it in the county, whether that's running, loaded, long-term share, they're aware that they need, there's an awareness that, you know, over time we need more land, whether that's filling in bottom land, firing

[00:11:38] land across the creek, we know there will be more, and just look at where the airport is now from where it was twenty thirty years ago, and extrapolate that out.

[00:11:54] The property is viewed by the county, and again everything from Bristow Road all the way up to there, is viewed by the county as future industrial type things. It was recently under contract with a data center group. The supervisor from that district, amongst possibly others on the county board, didn't seem to have an appetite for data centers right there. They do view it as possible future warehouse and distribution or airport growth the county could do this as you talk about companies like Electra Aero moving into manufacturing if they ever

[00:12:34] do the reality is that he has no place to do that so we either partner with the county to help Electra Aero grow or Aurora or Bowen or anyone else but that property we should at least talk about what it's going to look like in the in the future, whether we partner with them from a grip of today argument development.

[00:13:02] Great. It's all about the mission and I appreciate it. I support it. But at the same time, as a member, we just saw straight out of the rest. Is that we're really trying to replace this, or we're just trying to get, you know, the other side out. If we needed the land, And I get it in a different place, I understand, you know, the type of plan and how it was.

[00:13:30] But I'm, you know, having a conflict here because, you know, you cannot come and say, you know, let Dale leave. And it is, I did what I'm the resident talked about. And now, you know, we are exploring, you know, doing well with your family.

[00:13:50] So, forgive me if I'm having a hard time with this, I do this, you know, just like, For late, it was no only a difficult decision, but it was so important. So I don't mind doing that, but I have to advocate for my first-year-old land to lead our female funds, or if we have too much needed funds.

[00:14:13] Well, and I'll answer on that. The land that I'm looking at is land that can be made air-side available, But there's no way that that was ever going to be an air site and the key thing that all these people are looking at is air site access.

[00:14:40] It won't have to be on the runway, you need to have a taxiway where they can get to the air site. On the side of the road, by the road, never going to be air site.

[00:14:54] And I will continue to advocate, because we need to, you know, do something to the other part there, or, you know, I might want to get more information on that, like how long you want to pay, but I don't want to, you know, the, okay, and I will always bring it out, okay, if we're looking to buy, make any questions, I want to see where we come.

[00:15:31] The produce from the land that was sold to PWL is not used to help with the purchase of the land that you're talking about? It is, I'm going to answer that, and not put other staff members in an awkward position.

[00:15:50] There is a current disagreement between the city, staff members, the airport director, and the FAA of what that money can be used for. We have the one letter from the FAA that says it must be used in direct support of airport operations.

[00:16:12] That is to me is a very broad statement and there are lots of, can I just keep going if that's okay? There's a lot of things that are still on our plate and questions we have not answered in relation to airport passenger service yet.

[00:16:35] So I like this woman said I appreciate the vision. I think it's a little on the management side. I would say The counselors told me a couple of times we're out over our skis a little bit I think the conversation if you want to move forward should be had with both airport Commission in both economic development from both sides and with your committee right with the shared services i think all of those things are going to need to happen to get everybody on board um but we have

[00:17:14] i'm going to answer your questions directly i think there's a lot of work in front of us um before we got to any kind of ordinances or anything like that and as mr small said really what's the county what's the benefit of the county here because they could do this without and as we've seen with the shared services we get the height and stiff arm every time we try to talk to them about anything so in my opinion you have to get them to the table first and then in

[00:17:50] relation to the 30 million if the airport with my gut instinct would be if you're using it to purchase airport property to expand i would say that's in support of airport operation but you have additional costs that we know are coming up you have for passenger service you already know you got to have fire service there you have not seen that cost yet we know that if you're passenger service you must have an explosive detecting canine you haven't seen me come forward

[00:18:27] with that one yet that's that's going to be you know an officer a dog in a car you're going to have security or officers out there so there's a lot more cost coming to you and we have said when we made disagreement with that port our number one thing was no cost to our residents and I'm concerned that we're moving forward without seeing revenue yet from app ports of having to do things without that

[00:19:04] revenue so I would say the vision is good I think there's a lot of conversation in groups that need to come together. We have a lot of other higher priority things at the airport. So it sounds to me like we probably are in a position to buy the land ourselves. This is a city so instead of having the county develop it so well we're trying to get in as a partner.

[00:19:38] I mean, they're nowhere near the point of even talking about what they get or the ordinance. It's been a preliminary behind the scenes conversation for years. I've also talked to the Supervisor's authority, I've talked to my counterpart, to come up as part of the innovation district conversations that are ongoing.

[00:20:02] I think, you know, to Doug's head nod philosophy, perhaps Councilman Wolfe looking for is the sentiment of council that we should continue these kinds of commerce. If you bought it yourself quite frankly though you can't rezone it yourself. There is a partnership opportunity here or the county has the ability to do it itself. How much land are you talking about?

[00:20:39] I'll also say while I look this up that you didn't build even for the airport to build the county incredibly they treat the city as any other developers you don't get incredibly complicated process to do these kind of projects without a regional you know you're you're in the making but a regional agreement there something that's a flood plain too I mean it just came up with 194 acres But there's quite a bit of land over there.

[00:21:10] That's one track. And how big is our airport? Several hundred. I'd have to look at all of that. I'm sorry not so much. Well, like we went into a contender of agreement, we're like 20%.

[00:21:29] We ended up with the recent control of our airport. It's the amount of acres that's one room for, and we're with a couple hundred. We're just applying to the purchased area, not the existing airport. I'm sorry?

[00:21:46] I guess it depends what they do with that land. We have a degree of control. They would not gain control over the property. You already know that the airport.

[00:22:01] They could only control the one year in agreement. If that's 50 acres, then that's one year in agreement. I already know his answer. No.

[00:22:17] He has too many other projects and property, which I'm going to call it on our side of Broad Run that he would try to pursue. It's minimal, what is it, 15 years? Yeah, on that side. You know, he has other visions, and quite honestly, I think he and we are just a little overwhelmed to even think that far ahead with trying to move forward with passenger services.

[00:22:47] Thank you, Madam Mayor. I think today brings us again, you know, the need for formal and full conversation in the school district party. I believe this is one more to the list of the shared service and other issues that we need to stop.

[00:23:10] Yes, I have shared my leadership department, so I will continue to play on that and I will say, you know, please invite me to appoint a person to go and move forward, I guess.

[00:23:36] I know about that I do want to see, you know, where I'll be telling my office, you know, there are others, and I hear that it's difficult, but I want to come across with that.

[00:23:52] That's what our district will hear that by you today. So, I will be comfortable on the phone as long as it's out of the district. I ask that they are pointing to someone's office to do that.

[00:24:10] And if I can add to that, Mayor, just so you know, if you look at your agenda when I started listing future work sessions and topics, we know and I know you need an update about the commercial air service at the airport at the top.

[00:24:29] So I know that's already on your list. You need a work session just dealing with that so you are informed and then can have some conversation with your constituents when asked because people are asking about what are we moving forward so that's on the list and this could be something that we have some conversation that night to hear directly from the airport manager at the same time we'll give him a heads up that he'll need to talk about the master plan for the airport in their future vision as well

[00:25:02] We understand that the school board may be locating their own facility, so the need for a very large building for school board, social services, and our registrar may not

[00:25:37] necessarily come to fruition. So if that does pan out, then the space that's available next to City Hall would potentially work as a three or four story building for social services, our registrar, and then some future growth. So recognizing that, that would fit into some of the future uses or potential

[00:26:10] development plan that Matt will be presenting for y'all. Does anyone have any questions specific to the Space League? So I'm going to build on his presentation to bring everybody up to speed and Mayor, Vice-Mayor, if I heard it wrong, correct me. I would say so what Mr. Burke is referencing is we went into this, if you remember we were talking

[00:26:43] about a joint annex building at the city hall slash MIPCO area. Based upon our discussions with the school board, their priority would be A, a standalone building, whether that's them purchasing the current Apple Credit Union and or building their own separate building somewhere else would be option two and then option three last resort would be a joint building with

[00:27:16] us basically what we have been able to determine to based upon their input to mr. Burke their amount of space needs that they would like makes doing a joint building at City Hall unrealistic you don't have the space so even if you wanted to pursue a joint building, we would need your guidance and we could provide options of where that would be. So it wouldn't be in City Hall in the

[00:27:53] MIFCO property. There would have to be somewhere else that we would have to look at. But did I hear them wrong or? Yeah, and I would add two things. One, we do a building, and again my thought had always been And an annex needs to be immediately contiguous to the existing building.

[00:28:18] Putting it all the way down at the other end, the metro site sort of defeats the purpose. So, and that's the only place you can put it with the school. If we do, if we do, when we do, an annex, make the fourth floor, don't, don't.

[00:28:38] At some point, again, looking for the future, at some point in time, the government will need the space. Then they'll come back and say, why didn't they build the fourth floor? Build the fourth floor if it doesn't have to be for five years. uh but yeah the schools uh conversation i've had with each of you individually um were very much that they were they were targeting for their administration and um altering bed and i think we made it pretty clear that that was not an option that was finally

[00:29:17] and i realized you have to have a sale and it's sort of like worst option bad options but i'm i you all know i'm on record of proposing the purchase of the apple that i've told them push them to shove that's the only option and i will support um i think there's another option

[00:29:49] it's developing for privacy that declines or not um that's sort of what it's in so to again just try to provide provide clarity before matt starts mr burke's plan that he's presented here of just our need allows for that annex to be built up next to the current city hall which would cover just our need and future need for the city so this allows for that to be positioned on that

[00:30:22] Yeah, so we give, yes sir, that would be social services, our planning is a social service registrar, future department staff, and general buildings of 10,000. So that's the size. And remember, we've given ourselves a seven-year window with social services. But we knew some of these decisions needed to be made and that gave you time for our revenues and some other things that come online to get the revenues in the position to be able to make these decisions

[00:30:58] and you know you need a parking garage. To bring you full circle a year ago I would retreat the direction the staff would explore a big building with schools come back to us from the space need site then engage with the schools see if there's still interest and here we are today telling redundant space needs we have issues with the big buildings not going to obviously not fit up against city hall I'll get to that in a second and here we are today kind of back to what are the city's needs then separate conversation you had about with the school primarily about where their central office goes so we have spent the last year following council's guidance on figuring out what

[00:31:36] our needs are for the next for a while a couple of things for me. I would like to sit on it. This is just what we have, and I know it's going to be right here, but I, you know, not only about the height, you know, the forest, but I would like to see that, you know, so we all know the building that we have, and then, you know, they, um, what, I don't know how long it's going to take for now, and how our building is going to look, but if we make such a big investment of improvement, I want to make sure that's such a big part.

[00:32:14] I am vice mayor Wilson and I also have a change of heart, I believe, you know, that the schools should be on their own, as it's basically means, and then, you know, will and that's what I think is just a bunch of things, and then you can explore that and make that happen, make a budget for that, if that is recommended by such a guy.

[00:32:47] I think we were clear that day, so how you just laid it out is some of the questions we had. So when it was posed, well, if we buy this current building and something major happens, are we going to hear, we told you so?

[00:33:10] I said, absolutely, you're going to hear, we told you so, that there's problems with the building and you're going to have to come up with your own money to fix a $3 million HVAC. So I think that, I'm sorry, when I answered it that way, it kind of changed the conversation of maybe we should explore building our own independent building.

[00:33:35] I was very clear directly with Kevin that you buy this building and the AC dies, you need $3 million. It's going to come out of your CIP just like it's a rule You cannot come to the Council asking for supplemental appropriation. That will not happen.

[00:34:07] My concern is, you know, the number one I really want to see this happen whenever in the future it is, and that I know how, you know, about the work that we have to put it in there in order to get there. i do want this to be good for us and uh and to be uh you know the same uh kind of building and then uh um for the schools i mean i'm trying to throw a little bit second on the top four uh the top four uh from the survey yes uh so my the way i see it you know my degree is concerned

[00:34:42] what many of these kids are there and this one is so important uh based on the new information that we have. I want to be able to know and spend a little, you know, like do a bigger possible investment on their money for the profit, but I believe they push out the public if they ask for this, if they can provide their education with having this, you know, like I don't want to, I want to contribute to that. But at the end, I want to make sure

[00:35:16] several things so Mac let's look at help me understand this chart a little bit so at the bottom the way it's presented right now the proposal this this proposal and I understand things can change this total of 22,000 square feet

[00:35:49] gets you social services registrar how so that says three-story then it says 7333 square feet per floor but what is it that it says annexed 7500 the space that has been identified allows for a 7500 square foot per floor footprint and when we move on to the next two slides you'll get a little bit more of a sense of what I wanted to convey to you is that the minimum space we need is 22,000 square feet at a 7,300 square foot footprint you need three

[00:36:28] scores we do agree that if we're going to go through the bothers of building the building a fourth floor would that be the recommendation but this was just to establish that in the footprint we have we can we can house social services registrar and some future growth I think if you finish going through your next few, maybe I'll answer some of the questions with it now.

[00:36:51] Because we're kind of cutting them off. I got you. And I did peek ahead, so it's like you can see the pictures. But we haven't talked about the registrar.

[00:37:06] And we heard the registrar, the patrol board made their report. They talked about a thousand square feet that they're in right now, handling voters and early voting and recognizing that last year was a presidential year and the charts go down and then they go back up.

[00:37:26] But my question is really, in conversations with them, are they comfortable with 2,000 square foot space? What the space needs study was shared with the registrar, we did not hear any objection to the space that was identified in it.

[00:37:45] And as you knew the space needs study, the first thing to do is you sit down with the department and the department might say, "Tell us what you need, what you think you need, built off of their needs as communicated by the Registrar, and this is double the space that they're turning. Correct. So they've had some input along the way on that.

[00:38:02] So they're a number of essential. Right. Okay. And when it says future department, that's unknown what might go there. Correct. That was just identifying that we didn't want to build, as Weismar or Wolf indicated, we did not want to build too small of a building.

[00:38:21] Right. Okay. And we've taken that approach with the schools. Let's be fair, you know, consistency state, but schools wanted that along the way in that case. Which is good, yeah. I mean, you know, in terms of thinking and planning along the way in the same way on that.

[00:38:46] on that. So then secondly, did I hear correctly about school board is looking at Center River Road 8700 and was it also looking at the old police station site? That's my part. So tell me again what they're looking at. Can I ask you, Paul, one second. I would ask if you'll let us get through the presentation. This may answer a lot of the questions that you and it may bring up more questions because we're going to our ask of you is going to be to look at

[00:39:24] it more holistically of all of downtown not independent development of hotel mipco city hall complex and as you notice i have schools later as well so we might be able to answer some of your questions that we could jump through if you could write them down to the end would be my ask Which is fine. You've got to remember, this is the first time we've seen it. This came out on Wednesday. And just following along here, trying to understand what's going on, first of all, here.

[00:40:03] And if that means, does that mean we're pulling up the school stuff to sort of, I see we've got things a little bit separated that we want to talk about? A whole bunch of other things that we're going to do to schools during the same thing, at least, you know, about their location, you know, what they're thinking about, what they've shared with you about their plans for a new building. Is that part of this discussion right now?

[00:40:33] They have not shared anything of location other than the credit union would be their purchase, and then they would work with us to identify a location for an independent admin alt ed building.

[00:40:54] They would look to us to help them identify a location and how that would be developed. Thank you, ma'am. And sir, I wasn't... Oh, no, Michael. Thank you. I wasn't. I mean, the challenge that Councilmember Rosina, if I may, is encountering is that we have a lot of projects teed up.

[00:41:17] So downtown development, the Marsteller property, and of course, gateway. So there are a lot of pieces to weave together. So it gets very back and forth, where do you put it here, there, very quickly. So what we're trying to do with these slides, again, set the stage with where we think we are with city space needs where we think we are with school space needs and then run through all your strategic investments in the downtown in the mathis corridor obviously out at cannon branch and start to weave together really it's a prioritization it's head nods on some of the some of the ideas

[00:41:54] that we know on the on these properties you know based on long-range planning guidance and then uh prioritization because there's a lot in here and there's only one patrick and we're talking a lot now we're moving really from acquisition to disposition so there's a lot of things that we need to know i think sonia you said you know we need to sell some of this stuff as well we're not we're not just buying property for the sake of buying property and stuff anyway i hope that makes sense i kind of run through what we're going to do tee up these big projects and i'm going to move to the down start with the downtown and then move out into the perimeter of the city if you will and so what i want to talk about first is what this is not so the next two slides

[00:42:33] bring together they're called opportunity areas your comprehensive plan introduced the notion in the downtown that there are so-called opportunity sites sites that can be redeveloped they're not historic they're properties that can be redeveloped and reach a higher level development potential for all the good reasons you want redevelopment in the downtown council has strategically invested in the old town in property the mifco property now and of course the city hall site so as part of any of these exercises you've seen a little this one that we did the old town in community conversations patrick's department and my department do test

[00:43:09] fits not development proposals for the sake of the public for anyone watching this this is a test fit of the site to kind of show you if you apply the full vision of the comprehensive plan what the site potential is the second piece of the puzzle of course is the annex the so-called city hall expansion so that's the 7 500 uh square foot print mr osina that is being referenced making sure validating because if you if this we had still been in a joint partnership agreement it's not going to fit against existing city hall which is right here so we had to validate that we could even fit a building where it's always kind of been talked about and the council member luna's

[00:43:48] question it's going to go through architectural review board approval but it's also going to be consistent with the existing building that's always been the vision for an annex if the annex fit against it second need of course structured parking this is more than 300 spaces i think that we've kind of fit into the site but you're talking about of course existing city hall which is a little short of 100 spaces right now um and then two to three i think three levels would wear out right now so 300 space that's critical to unlocking the development potential of the old town insight very hard to park and get a lot of development on so the deck plays into that discussion and of

[00:44:28] course it also unlocks the potential for the other side even though by zoning land you don't have a parking requirement downtown for any redevelopment potential you're going to have to have some sort of parking we are still a suburban urban suburban community so you can't build a zero parking and expect to get any sort of development in so with those in mind what mr small and i did uh using john hetzel same john hetzel did the uh concept or the test fit for both the old town and the mipco site and it was you know used for discussions with developers discussions with individual council

[00:45:03] members really to validate the comprehensive plan we ran through a number of test fit scenarios so one i have a first and it gets to you know if you get if you had to do a big office building or a larger mixed-use proposal how much you could potentially fit on the other side of the property so we ran a hotel we run a mixed-use office building we've run apartments on that side they all fit if you will on that side you have as the landowners some redevelopment potential so if you think about the staging here you know city hall expansion parking deck these are ultimately public

[00:45:37] facilities this gets sold and redeveloped and ultimately you have the option of some redevelopment selling off a piece of the misco property as part of the the grand uh redevelopment plan for this site an option b really on this property is we took a look at residential i will tell you from a planner's perspective from the land use side of it only when you think about how the downtown is developed and how things structure and you think about the the townhouse community and some of the property on this side from a scaling perspective and this is just land use scaling this actually works and i don't think the the architecture don't get hung up on the

[00:46:16] architecture arv will spend a lot of time on that but from a massing and scaling perspective this actually works better as a transition from the core of the downtown towards the residential neighborhood so and i think when we run some of the numbers this actually patrick's not paying attention the numbers actually run pretty good on the residential um in terms of getting a developer interested in it again this is longer term because you have to build the deck in the hotel those are our priorities and then the question the council will be what do you do with the bulk of the property so for your first kind of decision point discussion we're really talking about an a and a b to distill it down simply you know we're looking at this council's interested

[00:46:54] in exploring something like this with a more intense development on the other side of the property or would we be interested in because residential always comes with other questions on impacts would we be interested in exploring a residential um component to the property i think that kind of sums up where we are though right it sums up where we're adding to decisions and then philosophically um do you look at both the old town end and i'm going to call it the mipco city hall development as as one opportunity remember we you we have not done any rfps for any of this

[00:47:33] right we've been more intentional so you have not opened the gate so to speak to hear from developers as a what if you may have a developer that says i will come in and do it all i will build your hotel give me residential i'll do hotel residential and your parking deck all in one suite we don't know because we haven't asked for any of that you may get a developer that comes in and gives you a proposal that wants to move the hotel to the myth code site there's we don't know

[00:48:09] because we haven't asked and that's okay because you can be intentional right as well intentional of saying no we want the hotel back on the old town inside we can direct that any way you want so what we're looking for again we're going to go i'm going to call plot by plot we're looking for some direction do you want to explore residential or mixed use or put it out and see what you get

[00:48:40] facts that's the best way to say it. I think both of these options are really solid options and I think that I think I like them both evenly but I think putting it out and seeing you know what proposals that we get may shape the conversation. Thank you Madam Mayor. I believe that when it

[00:49:13] comes to residential the opportunity on the on the shopping center is greater in the city here you know it is about looking at the addition the expansion we are tight i mean it is so tight and you know we only have two offices and we share so and i'm just talking about that you know we know they often but i can you know see how we're going to continue to grow as a city and the needs will be greater and they will even the annex is gonna become small in 15 years so

[00:49:53] I would like to see that instead of that you know maybe pushing the park and the parking farther down and saving the space like a green space for the future so we can have an opportunity to build another city hall or another station if we make. If we look at the utilities, you know, they are really far out. We have to go all the way, you know, first people, they do things, you know, independently. So I would like to see maybe, you know, thinking about what can we bring on this

[00:50:29] side in 20 years or 15 years or look at a far out spot. We will run out of space and I think now that we're going to have an opportunity to own that, we can make it a beautiful green space to hold and save the spot for a future development and future needs for the people. Building on comment. I do think that putting the parking deck directly behind the current registrar building will take away from the historical view when you're looking

[00:51:07] at that building. So pushing the parking deck. That's down hall. The deck is a little further down. Yeah and then again test fit. So I know I we the feedback is absolutely critical but just remember test fit kind of you put it out to a developer you're gonna get a version of this and it looks nothing like either their option there option B so this is really big picture questions of yeah absolutely critical stuff like thinking about even longer beyond the seven year seven ten year window is absolutely critical so those are yeah no and that's that was one of our concerns even in the test fit is what do you do with the 14

[00:51:44] space blue permit lock can we fit something in there to block the garage appearing so you got to be careful about how the garage is gonna fit with

[00:51:52] everything else in terms of matching. Yeah I think the, first off, I'm very much in support of the hotel at the current hotel type. I think that works better from a urban planning perspective. It maintains the commercial nature of the street and to me that becomes the key thing. It's still a commercial street and it's likely to be ever more of a commercial street until you get

[00:52:30] to Zebedee and even then you've got the shopping center going down the railroad track side of Center Street. So yeah, I think the hotel really needs to go there. On the MIFCO side, I think it needs to be mixed use, again, living there and frankly just seeing the foot traffic, what goes on on a Friday night

[00:53:02] Saturday night, having what, you know, what's shown as option B, where essentially you've got a residential frontage on Center Street there, I just don't think that works at all. I think it's just, I think you're going to set yourself up for problems and voided expectations, frankly, in a mixed use space.

[00:53:30] The other thing is, and again, the development, people tell us a lot, but given the size of the site, the location of the site, up against the railroad tracks, to me, you're probably looking at more of an apartment slash condo usage rather than townhouses.

[00:53:56] that will get you more density in your downtown core. That works a little bit better, frankly, on the affordability side. And then the last piece is the real answer, it ends up being a math exercise between all the shared uses of that parking lot. If you've got 300 slots, and then 80 are going to the hotel, and some of you are going to see the staff, and some You're going here and some of you're going there and essentially the leftover is for your residential at two per unit

[00:54:34] That tells you how many residential units you can have and that's the end of the discussion There's a lot there's still a lot of pieces this I just before I know council members in a question, but you know two things are one The comprehensive plan definitely talks about the notion of extending the Center Street Activity corridor so that leads you towards mixed use if you're going on that route and the second piece for council member Luna where you guys were going we you have a lot of opportunities so this is the existing driveway um behind old town hall you have a lot of opportunity in this area i think for green space we don't talk a lot about green space on the north side of downtown you really do want to be

[00:55:13] thinking about creating some civic space around city hall you know i've always wanted to close the driveway up against city hall and expand that area that's something i've thought about long term but you want to be thinking about that green space and even you know the potential for you know what What are the other properties doing there long-term in terms of the business space?

[00:55:32] So I think that's really something we really, when we talk to developers about, kind of what do you do around Old Town Hall? It's part of the museum system, which is one reason why it's not great to have a motor registrar in there. So it's definitely one of our historic structures that we need to respect in this process.

[00:55:51] Thank you, Mayor. You know, so like anything, you put out a proposal to a group and you get as many different opinions along the way here. And there's some things I like. So first of all, I'll say overarching in keeping with ICM Keene's earlier admonition about weight.

[00:56:14] Let's see the whole picture holistically and so forth. I will remind everybody, we are going to be talking about Mathis Avenue, shopping center, but that area. I will also remind council that back in 2011, It was the City Council hired the Urban Land Institute to come in to study Mathis Avenue in particular and whatever, and their conclusion that stuck with me was that the Mathis Avenue

[00:56:46] is a linchpin in the continued prosperity of Old Town, and so I would just suggest that while we have different ideas and suggestions, and I was going to react to some of them in just a moment that we want to be sure that this also blends in well with Mathis Avenue I I do not want in any way shape or form this to be looked at independently of the other they need to work together and so you know whatever ultimately comes along and I want them to be complimentary I guess is what I'm

[00:57:20] saying I do like Sonia's idea of thinking ahead of future expansion and I like the idea of figuring out a way to to do that just briefly here you're talking about a three if you move the parking deck down to reserve some space you could still do a parking deck that's four stories high because i recognize you know and as has been pointed out to me privately here you want this parking deck to be convenient for the hotel you know just the nature of how this is going to work you know and we know that that's why the hotel is not on the other side of the

[00:57:59] tracks where you know the farmers market is as an example which could fit really really well and you know all that kind of stuff there just the distance so i get all that and you're trying to move all the pieces here but i do think that as we do this stuff you know old town is lacking green space and so as we say we're the stewards of this land and help guide it so to speak this is is an opportunity, A, to perhaps demonstrate what could be done, and secondly, in keeping with our earlier discussion, like with the airport, thinking ahead, future, that, you

[00:58:37] know, who knows, in 2060, 2070, people go, boy, I'm really glad there's a little space there, you know, I can quickly rebuild, you know, build something extra, because all of a sudden, we've got the department of, or that kind of thing, and if not, it's a nice little place for, you know, just think of our city employees. I've watched them when they go out, there's really no nice place for them to have lunch, sit, what have you. They have to walk, and I don't know where they walk to, because, you know, the museum is a nice place, but, you know, we get distance and stuff like that. You know, there's all these different pieces. So I would,

[00:59:17] but my big overarching thing is that I think while we have our preferences here, keeping in mind that ought to be looking at this and then as we hear map is avenue which is really at the at the starting level but how do those match because as i say to me that urban land institute was a very powerful reminder that things have to work together here the success of this is going to be dependent on also math i don't want them to be competitive that's all i said patrick and i even though these were obviously test bits patrick and i when we worked with the architect really were saying urban open spaces are absolutely more or more urban open spaces are absolutely critical so you

[00:59:54] can see even even in this part we're working that notion as we know these are going to be out in the community and developers and we're looking at them i think both on the city hall site and even when you look at the ultimate design the rv looks the ultimate design of the hotel property having some outdoor more urban spaces is absolutely critical on the north side of the trap so um that's all really good stuff I mean just the rendering that you showed us with the

[01:00:29] options I'm like wow there's a lot of options you know I never even thought about putting the hotel where the parking deck will be which makes more sense actually but I like the hotel at Old Town Inn so you know I think would be interesting if we if we did an RFP for both sites like not you know like some type of a vision is that a bad idea do you want to accept I don't know how you do that you know what suggestions we would get on how to work with those

[01:01:04] sites remember your community input is a hotel back at the hotel yeah no I'm with you but if we're trying to actually get a hotel you know that's the point of an RFP. We have not shopped that out for that. It could jumpstart it quicker than we've been waiting on. I definitely like the idea of residential more than office space. I don't know. I think we need housing. And we can go higher there. You know, which also, when

[01:01:41] you're looking at the hotel, they wanted to go higher. If we moved to them over there, higher but be more marketable just you know throwing some ideas out there yeah lot to think about well I'm building on Teresa's idea at staff wise I think we would prefer to put the RFP out with all of these properties together one of the issues that we've talked about is once the parking deck really has to be one of

[01:02:18] the first parts of the puzzle to be constructed and in order to do that we have to then move parking for City Hall most likely over to the hotel site so if we had one developer that could come in and say here's my master plan I would build this you go here then I do that it would be beneficial to the city if we had one one developer that had a vision for everything the the RFP would allow for folks to come in and say well no I just want to do this or that so then we can talk to the council about what ultimately is what you see as the best

[01:02:57] for downtown you're looking at a development scheme probably this then back then back over there it's this is a long both the development process and the construction process is a long longer term you know that's why we went with the seven year seven to ten year lease at social services that's an important part in our in our opinion is that we need to move with direction now just to meet your seven-year mark kicking the oh let's wait let's wait till next year you it could be hard to meet your seven-year mark if you kick this

[01:03:34] thing out another year to that end so again it's obviously the parking deck is the start point with everything so are you asking wanting would you take a not ahead not for counselors yeah we're going to go forward and we can do rfps and stuff reality is we got to build a parking deck yeah yeah yeah question real quick we could do that but then

[01:04:08] you're locking yourself in with a pre-decision of where the parking deck is without knowing what you're going to put around so that's the reason we would like to get the philosophy and rfp of everything in case the developer wants to move that down and we know what's going to go on the other side well i'm not even the point of where the parking deck goes the concept we're going to build a parking yeah first things first we got to build a parking if it's 20 feet here or there

[01:04:42] we'll figure that out later in the year next year whatever uh once we get the input in their vision but you know from a directional perspective to staff we need to move over with parking and then actually comes frankly back down in from the financial side first thing we got to figure out where we get the money for is parking deck well not necessarily so that's one of the reasons we're looking at this you own the property so then it becomes if you put out an rfp potential

[01:05:18] partnership right of them building the deck for you on different opportunities that you don't necessarily have to go oh we we've got to go find the money there's there's partnerships that can help with that but you have to be open to exploring those and that's really what we're looking for your head nod to give us the opportunity to explore your options and then bring tangible Decisions to you. We have one, two, three. Do you want any of these? Yes or no?

[01:05:57] Thank you, Madam Mayor. I'm ready for that. I would like to see what the options are, but I wouldn't like to see a measure without a green space and without, just like you have that expansion, without holding something. And I know we have talked about all the potential opportunities there.

[01:06:19] So, I feel confident with that, and all I'm saying is to see if we can make our city hall look better with the free space, in the trunk, in the side, in the dual space, I was reading about the city of Buster, they put a temporary course in the space that they wanted to build, you know, affordable, a sustainable house.

[01:06:48] So it is not something that people, you know, the other bodies, elected bodies are doing. You know, I just want to make sure that we say something for the future that is really close and it makes today better for the employees, for the workforce employees, the residents that come there and everybody, they, you know, the vision is there too.

[01:07:13] I got you. When we do our request for an RFP, do we also talk about how we want the design to be coordinated? Like when you're looking at option A on the bottom with Sean Porter's beautiful house around the bottom?

[01:07:32] Oh look, caveat, this is me. From the owner of the Meredith House, this is test fit, this is not going to, this will not get approved. We're not going to put something that needs over the Meredith House. Sorry, I had to put that caveat over there. For example, the townhomes across the street, the Van Meter Belt, they're so amazing with their design and how they fit in with the city.

[01:07:53] Two bites of the Architecture Council and the Architecture Review Board. You're in the Historic District. They're going to have to sign off on everything that goes through. We need to put that in New York. Yeah, we have a pretty high standard, too. So you have three bites of the apple. I'm not going to show you something that I don't...

[01:08:08] That looks so sad. No, no, that's exactly why that note's on the bottom there. And also people taking pictures of it and saying this is what happened. Oh, I know! Don't take pictures of that. There we go.

[01:08:32] Yep, I need at least four head nods that you're okay with us putting a concept together and bringing things back to the future. No, it's going to be a little bit easier. I should have said it very much. Yep, we're good. So these, and as we've said before, we're looking at it, everything at once.

[01:08:52] So now we're moving down what we still consider Old Town and getting your, again, your head nod. Mr. Ossino, I'm going to have to get him caught up because one of the first conversations we had with the schools were, were they interested in this site?

[01:09:11] The answer is no. They are not interested in this site, so that opens it back up to you. Whether you want to sell it, just that, or you want to look at it in a bigger, go ahead, Matt. That was a 30,000-foot view, the comprehensive plan, part of the downtown opportunity site.

[01:09:30] The comprehensive plan talks about this entire area as potential for redevelopment. Holdup has always been and always will be our property. as i see i mentioned when a developer approaches the city we say you know we have social services we have a school board we have umpteen needs so if that's off the table we are back to looking at sale of this property and i have a few things to throw in on that one but really looking at the whole site there's a historic structure um i will talk about attainable housing here there is a need to make sure we are not displacing some of these naturally occurring units either building something better and moving people around so there's some pieces to this but there are historic properties

[01:10:09] to deal with, but ultimately, are we moving beyond the bifurcated, and Council has fairly recently dealt with a development proposal that you can see what you're getting if you don't look at the area in the big picture, but taking this off the table as a city property and looking at it in the big picture opens up opportunity for master planning and a comprehensive redevelopment and being able to talk to the development community, and this is a longer return play about what this this area looks like but i mean my biggest planning caveats are again architecture still in historic districts you're going to need architectural review making sure

[01:10:48] we are thinking about the existing garden style apartments and who's living there and that we can your comprehensive plan talks a lot about displacement so we have to be thinking about displacement of existing residents and then uh you know doing this in a in a more comprehensive fashion as opposed to piecemeal so i think staff is more clear and saying it's time to consider option A on as well. I'm sorry Matt. You have developers that are calling right now about option A. They have interest in to kind of get your reference. Fairview Armed Apartments

[01:11:26] kind of backs up to the historic home. We've had developers inquiring about that whole piece and they would like to move forward with trying to do something. But we are the holdup. With the property there.

[01:11:41] So, and there's a couple ways for us to look at that. But there's a couple ways for us to look at our property. But I think what we really need from you is, are you okay with us? We're shopping this concept out at this point.

[01:12:00] Now that we've talked to the school, which has also been one of the holdups, no interest in that property. I was mentioning the EduGenius does own the Tilly Hall property. They were looking at it for a daycare there we draw all of our best of our knowledge They're not moving forward, but they do own the land. So that property is also you have a historic structure to have to preserve It's not the easiest area to redevelop, but that property up we believe is also available at the assemblage The right side on a the right side is the

[01:12:44] - This property down here is still under LIHTC. LIHTC is gonna run out in a few years. It has been sold from the developer we were dealing with. We believe, but we do not know that the new owner has no intention of, as we thought, would be an option of renewing the credits and reinvesting the properties.

[01:13:03] We at this time believe when those credits expire, you're probably gonna see an as-of-right, by-right proposal and something. And this is, again, probably five years out, But the LIHTC is not going to be renewed, to our best of our knowledge. All they find is the pool?

[01:13:20] Yeah. So, yeah, I'll orient you. Let me, so right, you have Fairview Avenue coming in with Signal Hill. You have single-family residents. You have a convenience store, two garden-style apartments. This is Tillett Hall, the historic structure. This is obviously the police department parking lot.

[01:13:37] Doug's dog's train back here. Doug's dog. Is that what's on the other side? On the other side? The left side, tennis courts, Osborne, sorry. I understand.

[01:13:53] But it's still just like we have more, you know, whatever comes there, whether it's some houses like kids were trying to build sports or some other development.

[01:14:09] It's going to bring more kids and more people to the city. Same thing as whenever the other development happens. So I am long for, A, as long as you take that part and leave it at the parking side, because I believe that we need to protect that area for, whether it's a school or green spaces.

[01:14:32] That is, I remember when the developer presented, you know, they even were trying to say they wanted to do a dog park, and for us to let them use, you know, our training facilities for us.

[01:14:47] yeah so I you know I building on that and I'm seeing the reaction you know I'm not trying to park in there or oh but I say you want to hear a lot about future

[01:15:06] And to me, the city needs to reserve that, whether it's green or parking, you know, the way it is, but we need to reserve that for the future, because you're going to have needs, whether it's at the high school, at the middle school, Baldwin, you know, Baldwin, Baldwin.

[01:15:27] And I know, I understand this building, I understand whether it's for ourselves. We used to have the case parts there before, while by case. So, the reason why I'm bringing all this up is because this is very important.

[01:15:44] I wouldn't mind, you know, the whole thing on the top, but it's not parking. I think it is a key for the future, and that is my point. So, if I can answer maybe a little bit more. Yeah, that's a lot of details.

[01:15:59] what we were looking for is they had not to do it be okay with pursuing selling it because our concept is like yours cutting that section off that there's already a public access plan as a new through there so those are things that we already would put in there that would be mandatory and again cutting that off kind of squares off that development and that was already one of the concept that we had thought of. So we'll put you in our cleaning. I'll just say really quick on the localized traffic impacts. An office building here, a daycare here is going to be much harder

[01:16:39] to address than a residential, although you'll hear complaints about traffic when we go through the redevelopment process. Commercial uses here, knowing the condition of this intersection, very hard to make modifications to. And the intersection at Richmond, where they're not in the best shape, this is very localized, Fairview Avenue we're talking about, not having commercial here or an office use of school board building that will make an impact doing a resident it'll be better here to do a residential development than trying to put commercial uses on fairview and we know there's a lot of interest there right you're still walking distance to bre you're walking

[01:17:13] distance to schools you're walking distance to old town so um you know going back in just a few years developers i'm going to i used i'm dating myself a little bit but we still call it the van meter old town development. We had developers at that point interested in bringing a van meter old town crossing, old town square style in there because it fits. It backs right into old town.

[01:17:39] Although that would be up to them, whoever bought it and brought a development. So lots of opportunities here as well. So this is a, what I like about this is a chance to re-envision what goes here or be a catalyst to re-envisioning here so but there are also I think some lessons learned very recently from Manassas Square density no I mean not to the degree that there's a character to this neighborhood or neighborhoods on both sides

[01:18:17] that I'd like to see any developer come along at least for me to win my support who's going to have to recognize and respect that exactly

[01:18:29] Exactly. And, you know, it falls in the historic district as well. So I know ARB, but as I say, you know, so tossing up all the, you know, a lot of density. I get, you know, planning here. You want it closer to your, you know, mass transit and so forth. But nonetheless, as you say, transitioning along the way there, it would be great to see some way of, because it was talked about in Manassas Square, of creating

[01:19:01] some kind of way for those neighborhoods to get to old town without having to walk you know all the way to fairview then turning you know on the front foot the trail connection is currently here so yeah you need to actually you know really make this along the way you know so it's wide enough so strollers and you know all that kind of thing i don't know if mr wolf wants to bring up his idea but you know you get over there on prince william street and you're trying to get to old out you know all the shops you want to bring up mention what you and I briefly talked about this

[01:19:40] is really okay stay tuned stay tuned on that but as a piece further well no further down you know we're all on that and then lastly a real effort as we develop this as this is developed actually as this is developed uh i know it's i think it's a requirement but true community conversations to sit down so that that neighbors and all these neighborhoods on both sides kind of understand

[01:20:20] because i mentioned that with manassas square i said you know the project in and of itself did not not pass but development is inevitable here and and uh but that doesn't mean they really both anybody i would be the same way you know worried about that the next day so that there's involvement you've got that process uh on that and and also then just recognizing it's a great but it is a through fair too so addressing some of those kinds of plan vision for master planning this property is what we are going back to i think really and i know i love doing community conversations i'm doing a lot of them so if the developer

[01:21:00] takes the lead on one and staff supports it i'll be okay from a workload perspective plug for my mental health so I don't feel great about displacing people and I think it's worth recognizing the value or the cost that these folks are paying to live in especially these apartment structures recognizing what Tom said that across the street it is single-family homes but just on the other side of Tudor you have the Manassas station apartment it might be you know work while we're while we're looking at this to also put some apartment living

[01:21:38] in um you know i don't want to go over density because you know like tanya saying that the more people the more resources you need but um but i certainly don't necessarily want to see structures that the people who live in that space now would not be able to attain i think my my answer to that was we hear you and it ties into what councilman of cena said earlier as we come up to manassa shopping center of us looking at our housing citywide and opportunity yes you're correct

[01:22:12] now their opportunity for them may be on mathis not unfair but yeah but if the opportunity for them is six to eight years now i don't know if it's good enough no no i'm with you yes yes and we went through that with the Pierce property too and the apartment there we we need to make sure we're taking care of the folks as part of any proposal who are already living on these properties so i think when staff talks about the addressing displacement preferably on site is going to be something we're going to push and we we made a stab at that but it just couldn't get the the right thoughts on that one i'm sorry i forgot one thing i must someone's ahead of me

[01:22:54] um just to make sure i didn't miss something the other properties surrounding the police station are they for sale or have they agreed to sell very much they're they're all they're not for sale but the owners of all those properties are very much interested in entertaining well you've got development so so to the police station north there's four properties right three of them are owned by the same guy yeah he's spoken to us over the years i've probably talked about for the last decade obviously the Tudor Hall property is in play and like I said this property is flipped from who we were dealing with during rezoning but I it's a

[01:23:33] development they might be interested in selling to join I think you I think the you know with the right with the right development proposal yeah you can put these you can master plan the corner so another question the historic property Once they're sold, what type of say do we have?

[01:23:58] What happens to those historic properties? Or can they just be demolished? So you're talking about Tudor Hall, an additional structure on the property, and the duplex properties up along Fairview. They are in the historic district. They are protected from demolition without a pool of ARB. They cannot be demolished.

[01:24:14] So a developer, a really good developer, is going to have to figure out how to integrate those structures into the proposal, unless you come into ARB, which you will not, I would guess, to demolish those structures. Are they moved? Yeah, there's umpteen ways in the master planning process with the right developer and the right amount of money, but at this point, from a master planning perspective, they need to be preserved.

[01:24:39] That's what your historic district is there for. The primary reason your historic district is there is for contributing structures to not be demolished, at least without ARB. okay thank you mayor um so again i'm following up on on what teresa was saying i had about the historic structures i think one of the beauties of the till at all property is the way it looks you mean it is it's uh laid out clearly the outbuildings are not habitable they're you know they really do need to be removed i think they are eyesore stuff of that sort we'll see something

[01:25:17] in the next six months but the non-contributing instructors that carlos have yeah but there's something to be said for that that that whole and so what i didn't like about the previous proposal there but where where they they had it but they were playing these two-story i don't know three but two at least two-story buildings you know right there that just you know didn't like it for all those reasons uh and we've come to kind of earlier we were talking about green space on that but what whatever on on that the the other part is following up with ashley is the folks in

[01:25:54] the apartments and even in some of the homes running on fairview who live there those are you know the houses rented out and so forth i would call those folks that are basically in some kind of attainable housing and and you know i i i think it's really incumbent the nasa square taught us that we don't want to be moving you know eliminating that kind of housing uh and and you know all we do is put up much higher price stuff and then folks not having a place to be

[01:26:29] especially as we're working on housing trust and we're just more aware so matt your job is to make all these balls bounce and juggle and go through and the lesson from manassas square was we tried to we didn't want to displace residents but we only had this parcel to work with and that's the polling just did not work so absolutely on that thank you for me if there is any proposal and all this comes away and those buildings are left and they continue to you know

[01:27:08] be a affordable housing under that program i don't want to see you know all the profits come in and then we'll see if we'll fix their place so i just i know that we you know we can all make a change but if that comes to place within the whole development i want to make sure that you know they are not left behind which that's something that i get them and i get it you know we can talk about what we approve but i'm just you know trying to say that if uh the development comes with uh

[01:27:43] keeping that as it is. I want to make sure that that doesn't become like oh we'll get all our money to make a profit and then like two days after two years after we finish we might be fixing there. I want them to be treated and you know you know it's just because you you know you have that problem with the need. Yeah it's uh let's say this gently. We are uh all the things you're concerned about we don't even know because you have no proposal so the time

[01:28:20] to answer these questions is when you actually have a proposal in front of you and then you can start directing we're not going to accept this unless we see a B or C I know but at the same time we have all these opportunities that I do believe the developers are paying attention and even though it you know it takes a little longer for us to go through this I think we are you know setting the expectation for them

[01:28:53] absolutely yeah and I'm sorry is it trust Matt and his team as they come in he knows what you're going to be looking for he's going to say yeah you take it back to the drawing day well this is never going to go anywhere he made my point i think i'm of course giving you the opportunity to do that um and i'm assuming and is that that you won't have an invitation don't come back for this don't come back that they'll have the opportunity that i'm comfortable with going forward

[01:29:31] okay I just want to make sure when we talk about the proposal, are these included with all the IRC for everything?

[01:29:47] No, this one would be separated out, it's not connected to the property. The head nod is the property council is looking at the proposal. We're taking property off the table now. As an example, now if Patrick or Matt or I or Mr. Burke get a phone call, "Hey, are you all interested?"

[01:30:09] Yes, we are. That's that's what this is about. Yes, because before it was no, we're not it's not for stuff now We can go it is we can have some discussions with it. We're gonna sell yes And that's the year of work on the space needs. Hey, that's you're getting to some answers Fire station one is a little further out the background here of course is that station one downtown is at the end of its useful life

[01:30:41] Next topic, I'm going to try to move us along a little quicker on some of these discussions. Remember, most of this is just philosophical and head nods of us putting in the work to bring other things to you.

[01:31:02] I'm going to preface this one. Remember, your purchase of Marstello property was intentional. The location, we advertised that in the talking points of what that property would be, could be. In the future, the location of this potential fire station was data-driven.

[01:31:23] They were data-driven for the best location for them and placed it here at this location. And we'll move forward with there as Matt discusses both the old company one versus this. - Old Company One is at the end of its useful life.

[01:31:40] It is owned by the volunteers. That's the background on existing station one downtown. Steve and I, Steve and I met with the volunteer company to get in there and do a little bit more of a condition assessment just to see what end of useful life means and what kind of timelines.

[01:31:57] This is again, we're gonna take, this is a little further out. We need to spend a little more time understanding what the useful life of Company One building looks like, not the staffing, the building in this situation. So with that big picture in mind, and with all of Ed's data, starting with when we were doing the Wawa site, I'll just give a quick background.

[01:32:20] Chief Mills said, or Fire Chief at the time said, Wawa's the best site for Station One. So when Marsteller came up, we re-ran those numbers, and indeed for maximum coverage of the downtown, because, and this is the most critical piece of this site, Stonewall Road at Sudley, the engines can go left right and straight gives you the optimal four to five minute response time for the north side of the downtown of the city excuse me um and then longer term and this gets into some of the conversations from yesterday we know that's going to impact this is a test fit again so nothing's been decided nothing's been engineered but you know it does impact part of the

[01:32:58] existing building footprint that's the preschool at that point but the the key to this site is getting the station in the right location so that you can get out left right straight and of course we heard from community conversations. Parking, of course, there's a lot of fixation on this parking lot design. It is not the parking lot design. We know we will have to accommodate both parking for the Marsteller property and parking for the station and staff. So a lot of work here, but really we're talking probably five plus years out and financing is going to be a challenging force. So there's some stuff to be done here. But I think the next step really is getting the answers on

[01:33:36] station one having conversations with the volunteers about all the volunteer issues including what that building can do for the next five days so i'm going to build on there to give you more information this ties into matt's earlier presentation of again intentionally not programming out that side of the building because everyone here knows once you program it out you're not going to be able to unring that bell so we can't make that location for those rooms available knowing that within three to five years or longer uh you're going to have to take it back away

[01:34:16] now the funding piece let me just say we on the back side of this as you know the volunteers on the property and the building that the current company one sits on uh you heard me talk earlier and the budget portion of this, where they are at with services.

[01:34:36] We have begun, Chief Mills and I have begun having conversations with the leadership, President, Vice President, Treasurer, of how we could partner. If we build this one, could we partner on selling that and them helping contribute to the building of a new company more.

[01:34:56] They are open to the concept of contributing and helping out. a lot more work to be done uh with this but our first step is getting this report back of really how bad is that building that will help drive oh my god we got we need to move this project up that building's not going to last or hey it may give us a few more years than we thought so that's the key

[01:35:25] piece too I know you will and I know you are I know it's a concept but they make sure that the access to the part is well as well and it's pretty or I don't

[01:35:52] know how to put it because you know it seems as much as it's going to be the community center but it's also you know 50% it's a green part too and it's well acted and I know you haven't worked already so hard on that but I just want to make sure that we're going to put it back.

[01:36:13] This is literally station 21 with the 21 blotted out. We had to make sure the act again that critical access point fit. That was really the sole purpose of again and also to have that not going through the station 21 experience again long term there's a fire station planned out here i don't want to have a conversation where we forgot to do a lot of lead up that this is where we're thinking about it yeah and we which is everybody here i think we've done a very good job i'm going to use it on the marketing side again your talking

[01:36:47] point we've already we've already hit the public with this is where it's going um so we've already done that where those of you that were on 21 when it was supposed to go pasting there was never any conversation next thing you know we'll put the fire station there and the community was like whoa wait a second that that has not happened we've already marketed this out and put it out this concept and that's the plan and we've gotten a lot of buy-in believe it or not at the appropriate time there will be a sign that says future home of station one out here just just so everyone knows

[01:37:23] And what you're going to hear is, we already know that, people are hung on to the history. Oh, we need a fire station in downtown. No, we have two, one serving on the south end and this one on the north end now. So how we provide services is different, and you can't always hang on, oh, that's always been there.

[01:37:45] No, things have changed. There may be opportunities. We've heard a lot about green space. that could be a future potential partnership with green space there's a lot more to come but what we're trying to set you up for is we will be coming back at some time whether that's next year or two or three years out this project has to start getting you forward other than the council talking points the volunteer rescue squad has already moved from the downtown to station

[01:38:19] 21 so when jeremy when we give more projects for jeremy another one to remind when you have conversations with the community so just just firefighters i mean you know fire emds are in number one right you know no sorry you're talking about the old one or no one no there's rescue that runs out of there during careers they they run out of there all right good all right all right we're moving out and then we'll move back into mathis we put mathis at the end deliberately

[01:38:56] because we knew there's a lot of conversation on where we are with mathis here's where we are with gateway and landing at cannon branch so we are now talking about of course what i have up here is the approved council approved generalized development plan for the property so it shows what we built kind of to orient to this is the customer service center gateway boulevard godwin drive true hotel was built following the plan the 20k office retail building has been constructed this area and the gdp allows swapping which it's not retail you have another hotel proposal that's

[01:39:32] looking here that's the announcement that we made so that's where we are with the property the issue we're running into in the conversation we want to have today is this gdp was designed around the heritage brewery project the anchor one no secret was the brewery and obviously we're a long way away from that property so we are at the point where and we continue to from time to time get proposals from buchanan for essentially a flex industrial type space which made sense when we were talking about heritage all those years ago but we're really at the point where we wanted to ask council it may be time to rethink and reopen the generalized development plan there's another

[01:40:09] reason for that this whole project including the townhouses down here has approved 500 units the majority of those units have already been constructed you have a balance of 221 units entitled if you will so council could sell the land today per the rezoning approval you could move forward those units are an apartment building at the corner of gateway and godwin so basically the vision at the time the approved gdp talked about selling the csc council would have control over that but essentially putting multi-family at the corner here we're not so sure that the more we think about the property if that's the right location for it patrick and i have talked for

[01:40:48] years about would it make sense essentially to look at putting some of the residential along the waterfront looking at a mixed use maybe continuing the streetscape there's a lot of things you could do out here the biggest thing is really we think we need more we need to move the residential and tie it better into the waterfront to make the the whole project move along whether it be canada or another developer we don't think this gdp necessarily works with the anchor long gone so the conversation where i'm looking for head nods or doug is looking for head nods in this situation is really is there is there openness to look at opening up the gdp which

[01:41:24] will take council action through rezoning to open up the land base looking at moving the residential density potentially into this area and honestly if a developer came and said i want to build a 250 unit multi-family project would you be open to exploring if the cap is the cap was very artificial because you were dealing with the learner property when the learner property went up i think was approved at a thousand units and the council at the time wanted to show reduced impacts so they said 500 we're gonna cap it but that is an artificial number it's not a planning number it's not an economic development number this council the two questions are open the gdp and look at

[01:42:02] the land base and then can we come up on the cap from essentially 221 of the number you should focus on foods uh but yeah the rest of it's already I don't have a conceptual at this time, nothing that I should be willing to show.

[01:42:19] The Anchor 1 pad has already been sold to Buchanan, and it was not sold at residential price. They bought it to build that flexible. Point that out of their map. And that's a good point.

[01:42:34] So you have two things here. You have the map side of the equation, the land use side of the equation. This piece of property is already owned by Buchanan. Buchanan, the city has sold its piece. And then you have the Patrick side of the equation, which is, and I'll let Patrick talk about the status of the master development agreement with Buchanan, which there's two pieces in the problem.

[01:42:56] It expires in 20-step, so they are eight years, seven and a half years into the tenure of the city council. I think we also do potentially have people interested in doing the multifamily on the hard corner.

[01:43:12] So I think what we're looking for is your flexibility. willing to look at opening the gdp and moving the multi-family to the other could could i get you to say now as you point out which i'm a little lost this is all built so i'll do master plan one yeah this is all built these are the two over two multi-family in the townhouses this is the piece that was all built built out 100 this is landing a cannon branch residential neighborhood no i i walk

[01:43:51] But I just want to make sure the blue part is easier. Yes, it's 100% built out. Okay, all right, so the only thing we're talking about is the top. Right. If Buchanan owns that, are we can't develop it, right? They only use the development rights to the pad, point the pad against the map.

[01:44:12] They own that parcel. They bought it. They closed on it. They own it. The CSC parcel is held out of the development agreement. They have no right whatsoever to that property.

[01:44:28] Council withheld that for themselves. Can you go up and point on the map what Buchanan had? Buchanan bought that. And they own, obviously, the 20K office building. Everything else is part of the development deal, but it hasn't been transferred to Buchanan?

[01:44:45] This is held out of the development deal. They have no right whatsoever to that piece of property. You can sell it to whomsoever you want under whatever terms and conditions. However, the GDP at the time stipulated that was where you were going to put the other half of your residential.

[01:45:02] So as Matt said, we went from 1,000 units down to 500 units. 274 of them went here. 225 of them were theoretically planned to go here. Council held that piece of property out of the development agreement in part because you don't build that as well.

[01:45:21] So this is built. This is built. There's a piece here under contract for the Hilton Home 2 Suites. Buchanan has the rights to do this, and they own that.

[01:45:37] Even though they have the rights to do that, you still have the ability to work with other developers as you do in a two-hotel. And it's not filled either of those. So what's the aspect? What is your current aspect? Would you be open to taking the residential off of the hard corner?

[01:45:59] So, well, I guess the first ask is, are you open to residential out here? Because the reason it wasn't included in the Buchanan Agreement was council wanted to reserve the right to even put the other 225 units out here.

[01:46:15] So first of all, you're open to an apartment building equally. Then secondly, your GDP says it goes here. If you are open to additional apartments, might you be open to them being over here, which may be a better land planning?

[01:46:31] Then there's actually a third ask. The GDP says 225 units. 500 total, 275 built. I'm using round numbers, 225 left. Might you be open to a project that had 250 or 275 units in it?

[01:46:48] And maybe that's got some attainable units in it as well. So kind of like a density bonus. So do you want apartments out here? Would you be willing to see them here or here? And might you be willing to talk about raising the cap on the number of units?

[01:47:04] Can you answer my first follow-up question by saying that point I would end, we were talking about quarantine. Are we then limited to working with the channel? Because you made a comment that we were not. If we were a member for going, pursuing the moving towards the water, we have our normal flexibility with other developers?

[01:47:31] Or are we talking about funding with, of working with the channel only? What are the options if we move? Do you understand what they have here? Here, you can work with anybody you want, whatsoever. You're saying if you put it here, it could be anybody.

[01:47:49] If you put apartments here, you essentially have to go through a rezoning process. But developer-wise, they could work with them. Developer-wise, that falls within Buchanan's development agreement. So, the way that agreement is written right now, if developer X comes in and says they want to do apartments here, Buchanan gets the right of first refusal to counter that offer.

[01:48:20] So, Buchanan can say, okay, great, you're open to 225 units here, we'll do it. They get that right. If they decline and developer X is the one who builds it, you have to pay Buchanan a pro-rata share of the infrastructure back. When does that agreement end? I believe it's May or March of 27 in development time, not long. And if it's moved to the PAD, part two of his questions, if it's moved to the PAD, as long as they approved

[01:48:58] in Malacuba, Buchanan's got it. Yes, Buchanan owns them. If you approve the units there, then they have the right to do it or to sell it to a third party quite frankly without your consent um once you've granted these the units that that opens a whole nother conversation about what they paid for it so before you actually would go through that legislative process we'd have a whole nother conversation with Buchanan but we're talking conceptually now are you okay with the apartments here or there it's really important to kind of come back to the land use decision conversation first and then there's a

[01:49:35] a whole lot of mechanics on the new cannon deal that it adds a layer but i think if you can if it helps and if you can talk about land use first because the buchanan parts is a whole other level of mechanics again philosophically are you open to these and then we would have to come back to you with a lot of detail um i'm i'm looking to both it's just different i don't want to see you you know, like a four or five-story building at the top of the, you know.

[01:50:07] Yes, because that will take from, you know, from the other one. Then I am willing in the best way possible to give the opportunity for them to finish up after this with what they have and to finish their tenure.

[01:50:24] And after that, I would like to see how many can repeat and what can we do. And just like any developers, we'll have the opportunity to, you know, to work and to do what they need to do on that part. I would like to have a clean slate and something that is, you know, not that we owe somebody for something that we can't.

[01:50:48] And there's pretty good evidence around this conversation. So I'm open to both and I'm open to look at it, but I want them to have the right to finish up whatever they're doing now as it is. I agree, it's been years, almost been years ago.

[01:51:07] - To answer your question, yes, yes, and yes. And you can't say anything else. - It's the great one I am, because the other piece is because we get back to school. So, and I think I shared this, but it was through on Wednesday and Wednesday.

[01:51:25] After our conversation with schools, one night, the dots connected another day, and I went back and had a conversation with Dr. Newman and there's one member of the school board that i thought just stick off if you're going to spend 10 years old why buy a 40 year old building and you can build the same amount of new construction at this site and they were initially receptive and i were going to have a big discussion with

[01:52:02] Buchanan about just starting to kick the can down the road where it goes but um the way i've phrased schools was you were looking to buy in a 40 year old building that's phrased for 4.7 million dollars to 10 million dollars and you put four million dollars think about this so whether anything will go but again your point about what getting things going in at this development if we have the i think department department building that corner is poor

[01:52:39] Yep, an office building there I would buy. An office building further down the slope of the cemetery I would buy, but I think the apartment seems to be put over, because this map doesn't show the deposit, and with the slope and everything goes over there, you may even put it more than that, but you could make an apartment for it, but it didn't do that.

[01:53:05] So I heard Councilwoman Vasquez say she didn't want massing on this corner, the four-story apartment building. Alternatively, the way this whole thing is laid up is you would end up with a multi-story office building on this corner. And in all likelihood, two here, slip deck here, and then something down in front.

[01:53:28] I'm open to housing in that area, and then over here, at the DMV building. So I'm open to housing there, but I'm looking more at what the other side looks like, townhomes.

[01:53:49] Townhomes, I'm not looking at a huge building, because that is really the highest point when you go up. I want to say, you know, where the building, a little bit to the right, where the building is at right now, that is really the highest point.

[01:54:04] And if you put something huge in there, it will look nice, but I believe the price is right, I can change my mind, but I don't feel like that, you know. The property really starts to drop along having lived there for four years.

[01:54:21] Yeah. And then, and the other, you know, like, you know, if the schools are willing, you know, So I think that part, whether it's in schools or in that area, you know, it's more than happy. They just need a home. And if the investment is going to be that extra money, you know, can be found to be what they need to do, yeah, that's great.

[01:54:42] My dream is that we get moving with this and we get done with this. Last question. Wasn't there supposed to be a trail around the water? And I don't know what we're doing right now. We own the pond. VDOT owns this part of the property. VDOT has right of way here. We own all of this and we own most of that until you get to the corner and then TJ Hassan and Mike Avedo on it. You will absolutely get, I'm going to stop him because he's going

[01:55:20] to pitch that. This section will get filled as part of the development project. That makes absolute sense going around the pond we have done the preliminary engineering you're in multi-million mostly boardwalk limited access highway 234 you have to go to richmond for approval from the commonwealth transportation board it does not connect very well on the other side is not we cannot find here how to fund it from a transportation side and we're very good at getting transportation funded so yes maybe but this part along the lake good the other part challenge i'm gonna again please

[01:55:54] have patience with me when I say this I'm going to try to move this along we're looking for your approval to explore these options and move ahead with this so that we can come back with you with those other opportunities and conceptual ideals as we go back the anchor number one right now you said Buchanan bought that and so it was like a warehouse flex you said space no it was it was

[01:56:32] high base space think about what you might see over it at two silos so it was never gonna look like we're tucked away brewing is up next to Manassas Park so that's when you think about flex warehouse that's the kind of space this would have had nice architectural detail it would have had a variated roof but it was going to be a large building with some kind of entertainment in it. Brewery, distillery, we worked with one of those kind of, I don't want to call it a bounce house, but one of those theme entertainment inside with the pizza and the games. So Buchanan would sell this to,

[01:57:11] they would develop it, are they open to convert it to residential? Absolutely. So they would develop it or give an option to another builder and we have to you have to change your GDP yes another question where would they park we would have to put some kind of a parking deck the whole challenge with this development and the reason some of these buildings are shaded and some aren't is you don't get this whole plan without some kind of structured parking out here

[01:57:50] Well I just want to make a comment about the schools. I mean we talked a little bit. It sounds like the schools are funded for the Apple credit. Yes. I mean to build a building there would be very expensive. You know get them bring in there ready to go.

[01:58:13] A quick conversation with a member of the developer community. For x amount of dollars what kind of square footage could you get and the square footage was the same as the Apple credit. 10 million versus a new building I'm saying 10 million would get the new building 200 bucks a square foot new construction on the low end a little bit times 50 000 square feet is

[01:58:41] 10 million dollars okay so in keeping number one i would i my concern i would like to wait my concern is capacity for the staff to keep talking about all these different things that are going on getting ahead of us getting ahead of our schemes first of all we got a due date you know 27 not that far away secondly i will just say this the idea of a school building there uh right at the corner that's our land we give them the land they build on it we help them out because at the

[01:59:18] end of the day they're all part of the city here along the way to to add additional um expense where they have to buy from Buchanan or when we can clearly show some assistance by using by providing land to them at no cost secondly with the school school board we want it to be accessible meaning easy to get to to bury it somewhere in there and I mean you know you have to go back to find the building along the way where you're right at the corner that was the advantage of assuming the customer service center and the old DMV right there it was easy to tell

[01:59:57] people what to do. They slipped in, went in, parked, able to get out, you know, simple as that along the way here. And then lastly, obviously, looking into what the costs are going to be, because they too have finite resources, as we do in that regard. And unless we're planning on providing additional money, should the cost be higher than we're just hearing just real briefly.

[02:00:24] So that's why I in particular would like to wait, but if you want some reaction, for me, definitely put the, if they're interested, at least put the land to the school. So yes to multifamily out here, yes to looking at proposals that might move it, and yes to considering alternatives that might raise the 225 units up somewhat.

[02:00:52] I know before 2027, I need to raise something. I need that to expire before we raise that. To your question, no. I got one no.

[02:01:10] That's good. Ask for it. Yes, with 225 as the cap. 225? Yeah, yeah. 225 units.

[02:01:21] up to three four and a half with the cap yes but with the cap staying in place is what i heard

[02:01:55] is that correct yes i don't i'm okay i'm not trying to you know if you're ready translate one ten years ago you know i want that desire before we and i want a clarification that is for that section the school conversation is a separate conversation okay though we were talking about switching weren't we and we the land We have the land we own at the corner with the Anchor 1 property, right?

[02:02:34] Not necessarily the land. You said the yes was, are you open to potentially taking the units that have already been approved for here and putting them here? Not asking you to vote today on moving them, but would you be willing to see a development proposal that had the residential component here as opposed to where you've locked it in now, which is here?

[02:02:57] And not a landsmort. We're not talking about necessarily giving up control of the corner if you move the. Just changing the uses. So the land is still there for the other conversation with the school coming. And raise it to 225. Some number above 221.

[02:03:16] Okay. This one is a Doug Keene last minute. So I have to give you a little bit of background. As you know, some of you may remember, the firing range qualifications for law enforcement is mandatory by state code.

[02:03:42] We had an agreement with the Elite Students Corps. We had the best deal of anybody because you, a former counsel, signed on with a partnership with Elite before he got built. So Elite sold to Prince William County, so we no longer have full access to that facility.

[02:04:07] Prince William County is allowing Manassas City to shoot there, but we know that there's an expiration date over the next few years of doing that as Prince William County's law enforcement numbers continue to grow.

[02:04:23] We are also charged to use that. Now, part two of this is you are a member and ownership of Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy. Northern Virginia Criminal Justice Academy also needs shooting space.

[02:04:42] For the officers that go to the academy, have to qualify with their weapon. Currently, the academy is utilizing everything from Metro Transit, the Airport Authority, Loudoun County. We're driving all over Northern Virginia Range.

[02:04:59] uh region for those pistol ranges those agencies have also put the academy on notice you need to resolve your own shooting range opportunities we do not have the capacity for you to continue to shoot at our range the academy's options are we find land somewhere which we know would either loudon county somewhere out in prince william or faulk here to buy land first and we all know how expensive that land is in northern virginia or we try to

[02:05:37] find a partnership somewhere we have an opportunity we own this section of property off of carolina drive i would like us to be able to explore similar to what you do at the airport at land lease you basically give a land lease to the academy the academy builds the range they pay for it they design it they build the range whatever that time frame is mr brown don't let me get out in front of my skis 30 40 years whatever condition we put in the land lease at the end of

[02:06:16] the land lease you would have the opportunity to either renew it or it becomes yours but without without an option like this you are going to be paying a lot more money as a member of the academy because the first thing we'd have to do is buy the property.

[02:06:41] And just like us, data centers in Loudoun County, you already know we're not going to be able to afford property in Loudoun County because if we could put this there, they're going to put a data center there. Prince William County would require a special use permit.

[02:06:57] Prince William County wouldn't even let their own agency put in a shooting range. That's the reason they bought a leak. they wouldn't pass. Falkir County has already shut down theirs. So I would like us to be able to explore, get your buy-in, your approval for this corner of property for us to pursue a land lease with the Academy to begin planning for an indoor, it's not an outdoor range, it is a complete

[02:07:30] secured indoor shooting range it's right down from gateway it's on the corner of carolina

[02:07:53] no no this is on uh first it's indoor so if you're worried about noise no it wouldn't inspect the eagle and stuff and matt can you that's the park that's kind of branch the actual earthworks are down here this is the wdb building office building this is which way landings the landings is that way prince william parkway is here so when you talk about noise prince william parkway is in between airports if you go this way it's indoor and then there's a lot as we when we talk about

[02:08:27] noise in the area there's lots of other noise between the railroad and the planes and the train just for clarity maybe you said this and i misunderstood other localities will be using this facility as well yeah that will be owned by northern virginia academy and there are 15 members of that academy so that's where the academy would view in manassas city would have full access for our officers so our officers in the academy and our full 100 staff would have access

[02:09:07] and where do the officers shoot now currently the the staff that we have non-academy already been through the academy we go to elite um and it's i'll be honest with you it's rushed. Hey, you have four hours on this day to get your staff through. We run as many as we can through. The academy, as I said, if it's academy sponsored, our staff is driving to the airport, Arlington County, Metro Transit into D.C. sometimes to use there. So we're

[02:09:44] driving all over the place right now. So there's a couple of benefits as well. It puts more traffic out there for your development if you ever get a restaurant food out there gives no offense a law enforcement present you know so people will see more police cars in and out of that area as well I consider that a plus of the extra security so they would lease it from so they would make payments to the city to release yeah they don't make payments right now it's you're basically giving

[02:10:21] them okay that's for free for 30 years they pay for it and then it turns over job or you extend your is it anticipated we would if we went ahead with this proposal that we would have to pay to shoot no we we are members of the academy so there's no so we're we would get access because we are a member of the we don't pay and we don't get that of course but we also get the benefit of since it's here

[02:10:58] the downtime of our officers the overtime the officers are going to qualify yeah instead of your officers driving in an hour and a half to go shoot for two hours uh they're right here they can pop in while they're working as long as they're back i have four head nods at least

[02:11:24] All right. I'm good. Thank you very much. On behalf of all the chiefs in North Virginia, in the academy, we still got a lot of planning. This is a big deal for us. So thank you.

[02:11:50] This last piece, if I may, ready to go on. This is the last piece of what will be not the last conversation obviously but we are now at math is shopping center to talk about really the next year in the next five years obviously you're going to have additional conversations with the eda not today about some of the issues that we brought up during the joint meeting about operations and what the next five years look like i'm using five years deliberately because as we've seen with all the previous proposals when you want to take a step back and talk about the site between community the planning piece developer solicitation development of a of a plan you're

[02:12:28] and then by the time you start talking about actually changing the center taking things down putting things up you really are looking closer to five years away so there's some five-year discussions you need to have an eda but what i'm here to talk about is really the next year what staff is recommending we've had some conversations with the chair ms harover sitting behind you about what the next year looks like we have some pieces in the work but what the big picture we're talking about so first off the layout the layout is just to give you a taste of what your comprehensive

[02:13:02] plan at the highest highest level talks about for the mathis corridor and specifically the property that's under the eda's control which is looking at it in land bays re-establishing the street grid it's only up there because of something that when i was having individual conversations with members of council and they said well what does the plan look like besides the sector plan we said we would talk about land bays and street grids so i just wanted to put that on paper finally and show people what the beginnings of a community conversation might look like what i've heard from council obviously but we've heard from the community our process is that we need to have community

[02:13:38] conversations um we have begun conversations with roadside harwell who does your really good job at your community conversations i hope about what their services i don't have an answer for that you do need as per your mou with eda to reach an agreement on what the the planning process looks like so more to come on that but right now for the next year what i'm recommending we do um coordination obviously with patrick and some preliminary conversations with eda and icm is community conversations this summer at least two you want to have them at the center we need to

[02:14:13] have opportunities for robust engagement um starting with you have a you have 20 plus years of planning on this site so we can start with a really strong base lots of vision we got to start translating that vision into a specific property so entering the conversation with no preset notions beyond the fact that council has made a lot of all has provided a lot of guidance through our planning documents so we do have a good base on this site once you go through the community conversation process we'll work with roadside so this is a little different than community conversations where we did the hotel, we got feedback that they wanted to be a hotel. This

[02:14:50] is one where you would take it to the next step, which is have the land planners do some market studies and really take a look at what might come out of what we hear from the community and what this might start to look like. We would work with EDA to narrow you down to some sort of final conceptual plan with the long-term goal, the shopping center is zoned for a shopping center.

[02:15:10] So do you potentially move forward and set the pieces in motion with the entitlement that you would actually similar to how we did gateway where you start looking at the actual underlying zoning and flip the underlying zoning to a plan mixed development zoning wouldn't change the shopping center that doesn't mean the shopping center comes down the next day but you've basically taken step one and starting the development process then we would work with developers to flesh out obviously what the actual proposals would look like over the next two to three years so that's really where we are high level for the next year and what we're recommending for I think that's where our magic is

[02:15:44] - Hi, I think for the walkthrough, it was, you know, an eye-opening, you know, trying to see the vision for this, you know, I think it's no different in all the places they were developed.

[02:16:10] They were trying to get ideas on what is the market. market uh i would like to see i'm i'm more i'm more open to do you know phases especially the proper ones because i think that will be a little bit more accessible and it seems to be the biggest one and when i mean accessible i'm thinking like a few years as i know it takes uh long but i don't know if any developers are willing to do uh phases whether it's one or two or three and uh i would

[02:16:45] I'd like to say that I'm really speaking without having, you know, red or everything in regards to toning and everything too. But I have seen, you know, other communities go to mix, not only mix, but, you know, mix between commercial and on top, you know, like whether it's condominiums or farming, you know, I care about the density, but I also care about making that a significant impact on attainable housing and the work force.

[02:17:17] So for that, I would like to see a couple of things that the staff is thinking about it. No, I'm just going to leave it there. That's exactly what a planned mixed use district does. And we're talking really about really moving to a form-based type code here where you're going to, whether it's ground floor, one building has ground floor apartments, there's another one set asides again, going back to this conversation about using city property for attainable housing, all these strategic acquisitions, All of that, I think that's some of the vision that your consultant is going to work with on the community and then try to distill the community vision of the comprehensive plan

[02:17:55] and the sector plan vision into kind of that second bullet, a concept that council is going to look at in the fall and say, yeah, keep going in that direction and then move it into the regulatory scheme. And I've talked to the Planning Commission on the attainable housing piece when we were doing projects with them on the entitlement side. Mathis was the third piece that council said yes, work on that. Planning Commission had paused when the Mathis Shopping Center project started to come to fruition. And so the Planning Commission is very much aware that they have a project really in the beginning of 26 to start writing the code that will start to bring this vision to fruition.

[02:18:37] Madam Mayor, the phased conversation that Council Olmogaluna brought up is important that's going to drive what we do or don't do with those phases. So, if Council is open to the phased approach then, you know, that will guide EDA into what they do or don't do with those problems.

[02:18:57] Staff does believe that Purple Thesis is more developable in the short term and easily cleared out and balanced. I don't know if we can do it in two years, Councilwoman, but to Matt's point, if you're looking at a five-year to get something actually coming out of the ground, that's i i don't have an issue with the phased approach but i do think it needs to be an integrated master plan it is one parcel and it has been historically and whatever we do we've

[02:19:36] got to have an overarching vision for the entirety of the project realizing the tweak and change over time but we got to have a buy-in of the entire project before we can start figuring in that phase of purchase not only is it an integrated master for conference and master plan it will set the stage for remember mathis is bigger than the shopping center so whatever regulatory in the end you come up with and not to do my february work session but one of your comp one of the updated comprehensive plan recommendations is really going to be to build on this and start looking at something that we can essentially when a developer approaches you

[02:20:14] with another piece of property which will happen we have the regulations we have the vision in place we have design guidelines in place it starts to really it's another catalyst toward the bigger vision of this corridor along the way don't disagree with a big master plan agree with doing it in phases of along the way I think it's important that these community conversations take place which I was knew they would to may not be it be enough in the sense of there's a lot

[02:20:50] you know this is like a blank like an artist coming up and it's got got that uh the canvas and you're trying to think and you got kind of you put it together and discard and that sort of thing so that's right and all my different colors but nonetheless and like as we did having to and then as as you did with marsteller come back you know distill come back say all right you know these these are kind of things that bubbled up to the to the top along the way now i i don't want to get into the minutiae too much other than to put on the record that i think

[02:21:28] those are the kinds of things uh to be done i do think that because of the phase approach we go that route which would it would help our our residents begin to see what's happening i think that's an important thing you know we make these purchases and then they for a lot of different reasons let's take the fire station have to take time you know money all those sorts of things and then people wonder what happened with the third lane on suddenly you know that was decided some time ago and you know all the sort of things um uh in in in that that regard here um and that that

[02:22:04] sort of thing here so i think these are good starts and uh again would be helpful to start messaging some of this out we talked about it briefly we haven't forgotten about it even before we actually you know have to leave from the staff's perspective we're trying to avoid some of the critiques of the old town and property that we weren't doing things from acquisition demolition that we weren't working on all these things we're really trying to get uh yeah we'll work well absolutely i think with jeremy and eda really trying to message that this is the process that we have steps that we community conversations this year at least so you'll have conversation going

[02:22:42] on about the problem and the last thing is what i raised earlier when we were talking about city hall annexed is is having some integration that this this doesn't especially in our community conversations this is does not operate independently of that this is not like we're at the landings there it's very different but this needs to mesh with this this will have an impact as well as whatever happens in old ham is going to have an impact and i'm always concerned because i remember a time when several of those large buildings on church street you know were built

[02:23:18] and and what we were told if i was a resident at the time not on council that there was going to be retail on the first level and then you walk by those buildings right now and you look for the retail or there's very little or it's a bank and no offense banks are necessary and that sort of thing but when people think retail i don't think they're going i need another you know uh tom bank to to go to that's that's what how much of this can be sustained you know because you keep saying it but there's a lot there could be we already see the shopping center retail exclusively and

[02:23:53] for the most part and what's happening here that's almost caution set which is why i think the eda you know looking at economic market forces you know needs to consider these things as well as you know what's really realistic here and maybe more housing is going to be what ends up there as opposed to lots of lots of retail and a little bit of housing i don't know good luck i know that

[02:24:20] Can I go all the way down here obviously to listen in, but I think since we did turn this over to EDA and I know Ms. Small is a staff person, you've heard some things, I don't want to just consider that in a few minutes of your thoughts, I mean, we've turned it over to EDA, they're managing it, they're doing it, you know, what you've heard today along the lines, what discussions, I don't want to get too deep, but just from what you've heard, I mean, we're all on the things pretty much I want to hear from you yes I actually had a

[02:24:58] conversation with Matt because I what I thought we did very well with Old Town was the community outreach in discussing with the community what it could look like there and I look forward to working with Matt with the group consultant group to start getting buy-in from the community as to what their vision is but clearly we need guidance and understanding what the overall comprehensive plan is going to look like there as well and with my developer hat on Matt's right on point whatever happens here will actually set

[02:25:34] the tone not only for Mathis Avenue but for any redevelopment going towards Old Town so this piece is very critical phasing I think you have to do a master plan I'm not sure phasing is something that can be discussed as we look at what potentially can be there. But the first steps are definitely community outreach and getting some ideas of what will fit. Let's see what we can do on the site working with

[02:26:07] the community and the land planner and bring it back to council to get by it. Thank you. It's definitely an arm lock or a continuation of an old town and I just want to make sure you know the number one and so we don't lose that and then now with the roundabout coming into you know the area in the future here i just want to make sure that you know i i know you have it i just you know that is like you know that continues and uh in the way they look

[02:26:44] so you know that we they continue that and it's going to flow all the way to outside of the system I appreciate the direction I think this is where we finish with the development stuff I know you guys know this but I want to remind y'all these are projects we've been working on for a decade we've been planning that Memphis corridor we've been picking at that shopping center we've been picking at that hotel mayor you've worked on the hotel yourself from the day you got into

[02:27:23] office four and a half years ago. The MIFCO site we've been taking that for a decade, it's a lot of work. That's why the direction is helpful. It's not going to happen overnight, but y'all are literally at a tipping point in the community where all of these opportunities are coming into play at once. And I think that's, you know, just important for y'all to bear in mind as you talk to your constituents about everything that's going on. I understand the pressure to start seeing stuff coming out of the ground and just know we're committed to doing it for you.

[02:28:02] So as we do every year for the capital planning process, we start the year with this slide. I think this worked really well with the last retreat, so I'm going to try the same approach, which is I have given you the full project update. I will appear work session throughout the year and give you with Mr. Burke and the other departments more detailed updates on capital projects. So it's all in here. This is our running presentation. The slide that I'm going to focus on is just, this is really council awareness, messaging awareness, communication with the community.

[02:28:33] This is what you're going to actually see happening in 2025. Harris Pavilion ice rink, we are about to go to construction on that. We ended ice skating, so that's going to be that first six months of the year. Big construction project at Harris Pavilion, we are moving forward with that. Sudley Road Third Lane's got about another year of construction at that beautiful road project up there we are moving forward with our sidewalk and pedestrian projects long street drive is up next that's a water line and sidewalk again working on missing piece of sidewalk wellington road is under construction that is the last piece of shared use path from

[02:29:09] prince william street down to the rental truck rental you will completed the wellington trail from city line to city line our east-west connection and it crosses the railroad track That's a huge gap in our network. For Dumfries Row, we are looking at adding bicycle facilities.

[02:29:25] They will be in the existing pavement. This is from Hastings down to Grant Avenue. So, again, connecting what you've completed on Grant Avenue to where the bike facilities are on Hastings and all the way up to Station 21. We're moving forward and wrapping up, believe it or not, huge projects.

[02:29:43] The upgrade to 18 million gallons of the water treatment plant and, of course, the 36-inch water line that connects the water treatment plants. massive investments in city infrastructure and lastly because trees come down this is the one that's going to get the most comments the round storm water pond behind round elementary school major upgrade to this i think for council's awareness the biggest impact you're going to see here yes trees absolutely but the culvert will have to be replaced under godwin drive there will be a traffic detour in place a lot of messaging a lot of work detour is actually going to go through per princelian county vdot because this is the county side it's actually going to run through

[02:30:21] great oaks so there's going to be some there's going to be some feedback and we are going to work really closely with uh jeremy's not here we have to work really closely on the messaging here for council's purposes i just want to emphasize that was the recommendation from vdot in prince william county so we we have we have to detour traffic that culvert will fail and you will not have godwin drive that's a much bigger issue long term than a temporary detail we will do everything in our power with our contractor working with the county to mitigate impact that's how you replace culvert under the road that's how you deal with failing and aging infrastructure so there are a lot of other slides i know tom will have some questions on those and i can go offline or

[02:31:00] separately but we've set the stage for the year and i would back you throughout the year with the remainder of this presentation yeah this wasn't the first time that you've heard this week what we've tried to do is keep you updated throughout the year uh and we're going to continue that that style as well so you're not getting 100 projects at once you can't remember them we'll just keep

[02:31:23] Yeah. Just going back to one of my favorites, the undergrounding, electric undergrounding here. We're at 86%. And, you know, and it seems that to me that generally we do it when the opportunity, when there's construction going on here.

[02:31:46] But just like paving, it's one of those things where I guess you listed a few places we're just doing underground because it's the next, you know, place to do as opposed to construction.

[02:32:06] And I don't, for me, I don't want it to just always be, well, when there's construction, here's an opportunity. I think that's a smart idea, just like what you do with paving. someone's digging something up and place hasn't you know it's an opportunity to get the thing paid and move it up on the list why not because you look like all that sort of thing but i do think as as as time progresses here we you know we've got both visual sighting but more importantly you know keeping outages going on and now as the new liaisons of the public utilities

[02:32:43] the utilities commission here i'm going to be advocating you know those kinds of things along the way and so i believe money funding for that comes out of the enterprise fund is that correct uh on that and you know i haven't been able to they haven't met yet uh during my tenure here so i don't know what other concerns they might have so i know they express them to steve and to you and so but i'd like to see that just like with paving previous council person was paving mine's of electric undergrounding i'll just say this project this is not the the projects for tied

[02:33:20] to roads are not necessarily showing up in this particular capital project so this is what we're doing above typically the street projects so we have two projects that look at electrical undergrounding i'll just say that like the conversation we've had on things like sidewalk infill it is as you get to the end you know the goal of undergrounding everything we can it becomes exceedingly more complicated we are at the hard spots now so your Sudley Road is the set of lines are run between two folks houses the back of the houses along Sudley Road so you're getting into the heart and the costs are exceedingly more expensive as you get into these so we can we don't get a big bang for our buck

[02:33:58] when we get into these more complicated projects that's some of the some of the concerns that we're slowing down or losing focus and some of it's because we're getting to the hardest areas to underground and then the electric department is prioritizing reliability. Yes, aesthetics are great. We've got to focus on the ones next and give us the reliability first and then aesthetics are really a secondary when you look at the department. These are challenging. They're not the easy product. I get it.

[02:34:31] Yeah, if you have any other questions, I just didn't want to, I know we're getting up on lunch. I didn't want to run the whole deck, obviously. Yeah, parks and culture, if you had any questions on these, Mayor, so the Mars Stellar, we've talked a lot about Mars Stellar, Mars Stellar will open up on March 15th for rentals. And then I'll talk about this on Monday night too, so when I do my annual report, play all day, we'll be doing our community conversations on these parks that are of a park maintenance and Tom can come and talk about what playground improvements he wants in my parks and influence my children.

[02:35:06] I wasn't going to run through the whole presentation and let the other questions back. Great. Thank you for adding the purple light.

[02:35:22] I think, you know, if we, everything is open for you, you know, this is important because people were talking about that. And for the electric, you know, it's still, even though we had a, we had a couple of issues, issues you know in prior years I still believe that we are very efficient and effective and uh I asked as well to continue to prioritize the communications and I think you know we are there

[02:35:57] um the only other few facts that I got is like if the light is going off and then it's a business you know how and start the business but at the same time the rest is like at least really worry about about the business but you know the way I see it you know everybody is finding important and I think the investment that this elected body made

[02:36:25] on the system yeah it will continue to bring it will be a plus for our city I I just want to make sure that after all that we've been through, that we, you know, acknowledge that when it cuts through at the place.

[02:36:51] Looking at Longstreet, the power lines are kind of right over people's driveway, or like the fronts of their yards. Are we going to put them under the road, or do we take up yards, and how does that work? We took its combination in the street, and we negotiate easements on this property where we need it.

[02:37:09] Like, is there conversation about adding sidewalks while we do this? Yeah, one side, one side will have a sidewalk. So the project will be replaced with the waterline on the ground, add sidewalk on the one side of the street, underground utilities. We've, all the right-of-way has been acquired. All the units have been acquired.

[02:37:24] We are going to construction on this one. And that is for, like, all this time. Is the lighting, that's all some place? Well, the street lights, they're all ready.

[02:37:41] - I'm thinking more like towards the, towards the, like going to the church. - Going to the North Branch Avenue on Long Street? - I'll look at this and I'll show you. - Any street, if there's a lighting concern, we have a process with the electric department to come out and assess if we're at meeting our light standards, we do add poles and cobras on existing poles throughout the city all the time when there's a lighting concern.

[02:38:06] That's a good, one of those things that we're always, we're very responsive when you get a customer concern complaint that you know it's not enough lighting we have a really good process to address that and that's done out of the electric one not a capital project really out of electrical operating oh a capital project no no no all the street lights come out of your general streets oops i get the

[02:38:39] mayor um you have a couple of options your box watch is out here and that is the chicken dlc we can grab them and come here and try to get finished before i can do that okay yeah all right let's take let's take five ten grab it and get settled in we'll try to wrap things up if you're eating you can't ask me a bunch of questions

[02:39:11] mayor council i'm going to go ahead and get started on our next section uh we we strategically picked meals that didn't have a crunch to them so you could hear while you're chewing. This may take some conversation but I think we've already covered part of this and Mr.

[02:39:36] It seems that's hopefully tying into how we began today when we talked about the schools in this building. So before today, part of our planning process, I'll start off with their administration building we had already decided or heard back there was little interest in doing a joint complex so we as staff began looking where those other opportunities could be for them to have an admin building we identified two main locations one was out at gateway which i

[02:40:14] would say based upon our conversation today would be placed in number one position we all believe that may be the best the second one that we figured you have an opportunity also looking at this mr utina as you described property that we owned right to kind of give an in-kind donation to so to speak and that would have been mathis avenue but i think we've moved on from those projects and we're going to focus right now on the gateway uh location and see if we can flush that out a little bit more and have more conversations with the schools and get

[02:40:54] back to you that's that's where I'm at with that is that fair okay in your in your package that I don't intend to cover very much but I wanted you to have it at a time is their CIP list for the upcoming budget you'll hear more about this in your joint session as they go over their budget requests in need I thought it would be good for you to have this ahead of time so you could dive into it a little bit and they could come back to us or them prior to that

[02:41:28] meeting if you have specific specific questions about any of their projects so really where we wanted to go today is outside of the money we have planned to increase which is their base budget plus three percent we have asked the school what is your priority list and cost of your ask outside of the three percent does that make sense how I said that

[02:42:01] so it would be additional funding uh priority one would be a prime I'm going to give you an approximate number approximately 1.7 million dollars for additional or more enhanced pay raises for all staff not teacher it would go across the board i was clear with that question based upon our what happened last time right now they have i'm going to use again approximate an approximate five percent pay raise for all staff built into their budget

[02:42:40] No, I'm okay. So right now in his built-in budget, which includes the 3%, he has a 5% or approximately 5% pay rate for all staff.

[02:42:58] They would like to compete or at least keep up or enhance that more to stay in stride with Prince William County, which is in the 7% range. His additional request, again, priority one, would be that $1.6, $1.7 million so he could enhance that pay rate.

[02:43:24] Okay? I'm only feeding you information right now. Priority two would be funding for the pilot program of alt ed location. That grant that they put in was $2.2 million.

[02:43:42] They or we do not know if that's going to be approved in the General Assembly. So their other ask is if the grant does not get approved at the General Assembly, would we support using some of their reserve funds to the tune of $0.2 million for them to move forward with the pilot program next year?

[02:44:08] What we talked about at our joint building, and we made clear, at least in my position, if they move forward with a pilot program and there's any success data to go by, it's going to be hard to unring that bell, right?

[02:44:28] so if you do it yes you could use the one-time funds for the pilot but you need to plan and as we explained to them we we felt we got hit with this at last minute this type of planning needs to be a year in advance so really for us this should be a conversation today but really planning for 2027 not 2026 but again we can't undo it they've already put the grant in uh we're hopeful

[02:45:01] that it is getting support right now but it is only for one year um so if the grant doesn't get passed they're asking to use those reserve funds to do it and then that would give us and you time to plan for 2027 because either way whether you let them use reserves or they get the grant we need to in my opinion you need to start planning for the assault ed program because it's coming here those are the i'm sorry those are the only two apps so right anything comes up

[02:45:41] we have not heard about it at this point um and then then we can move based upon this today staff and I will, Mr. Burke, I'm sorry, Mr. Burke, we will take the conversation and move forward with the school, again, trying to flush out that central office location out at Godwin and what that may look like.

[02:46:05] I was saying that the plurality of the conversation was, I expressed to the board, I think I've said it before, I didn't, in looking at the budget and talking to each of you individually, So I didn't see a scenario where the council would move forward in increasing the tax rate and again, not knowing what the budget looks like in the other requests and other items.

[02:46:34] For FY26, my side of the envelope of masks is probably not very likely there is much with any incremental money available. And that the challenge before the council is to give it to the all-day, but also pay raises becomes the long-range revenue plan, you see what available funds might be, or what might need to be in the 27th and the out years,

[02:47:13] to that point, we do not want to get an unsustainable financial commitment, or set an expectation. And that's right, I just want to be very, very clear We will have a hard cap on the pot this year, and that's just going to be what it is.

[02:47:39] I think part two of that, part two of this, my caution to you and to us would be, I think it's fair to say that if there's a central office building built, we would plan on using those reserve funds to do that i would say diane and their staff really need to get a grip on what i call what is the true reserve fund look like because it is not what we were told in the past

[02:48:17] they acknowledge that a lot of those funds were already committed but they were reported back as reserves just how the former bookkeeper kept that book we believe it's around 15 million is what we believe we're at so um i would say at this point i'm not sure i would hate to say this because i think the project is good i think we have to be cautious about spending those reserves without knowing what a cost of an admin building would truly be and i think we should be waiting

[02:48:56] to see what the general civil does and like everything else we don't know what the current administration costs could be to us if they start removing funds from DOE or anything else that we were going to have to make up so it's not that we're all not supportive of this there's just

[02:49:21] a lot of caution in the air right now so first of all i think hopefully we all agree that in city government if there we had to list the most important functions of governance that we want We want to make sure they are funded, are prepared for the future and what have you.

[02:49:52] We fire and rescue, the young teens, police, and education. And as we saw today, for instance, we were very supportive of law enforcement, the police academy, the firing range, providing land along the way.

[02:50:14] We've been very good about finding a location for fire station one. We had to. These are the sorts of things. So I would hope that as we look at the schools, we look at the schools as the third most important thing.

[02:50:31] Not necessarily one, two, three, but those are the three focused there. And I think over the four years I've been on with when we talk about fire and we talk about police, it's somewhat easy because those are apartments within the city.

[02:50:49] You don't have to deal with an electric board, such as the school board, who has independent thoughts they were picked by our residents, the same residents who elect this time to be the mayor on that sort of thing. And yet, I do think we have an obligation to make sure that we do, we keep education, public education, as funded as best we can. I would hope that as the budget is put together by city staff, that we're not going to look at a tax rate and then try to back things in.

[02:51:27] because, to me, the purpose of the retreat is we're talking about what our needs are, what's going on, what our priorities, this is why we got the head nods, what's important along the way. And what I'm looking for in a final city manager budget is a budget that addresses as many of these needs that there have been consensus on, or at least the majority, because our job is to sign what that tax rate is going to be.

[02:51:59] It is our job to decide what gets cut or what gets added along the way. I need a staff, because that's what their expertise is, is to show me how and what the funding plan, the budget plan for doing these things, and then what it costs.

[02:52:17] And then we look at it and we do the hard work. That's why we've got 11 sessions to go through and make those kinds of decisions. So, directly to the schools, you know, we provided, in this year's budget, 5.63% increase.

[02:52:36] In 25, yes. Yes, the budget year we're in right now. Previous to that, we did 3% and half of that 1.5, whatever it was. And then, previously, it's been 3% along the way. Right now, we're talking about 3%.

[02:52:51] And yet we've heard that Prince William County is already doing 7% increases for their teachers here. So when I look at these asks... All staff. Okay. Thank you. All staff.

[02:53:07] When I look at this ask, and they're asking for $1.7 million for the purpose of pay raises for all, in light of what's happening around us, to me, that is worth our support.

[02:53:23] Just as we support police and fire along the way when there were needs of appropriate pay raises or higher percentage pay raises, we did the hard math, and we set things aside to do that in previous years along the way here on that.

[02:53:42] secondly about the old education yes once that using the expression once the bell is rung it's going to continue all right as long as you know the the the uh i want to say statistics but the data shows that it's having an impact i think we saw on the community satisfaction survey that we started this session with what was listed as the place that needed to be focused on the most it was public education wasn't it wasn't police it wasn't fire it was public education and that

[02:54:22] wasn't new two years before it was that and i believe two years before that it was that i don't know how we could i know i can't ignore that sitting when i can help influence now as i said influence does money solve everything no but we do know money's important because we have demonstrated that with our own city staff for instance or our investments in infrastructure such as the fire station along the way here um and so that is why to to me first of all

[02:54:58] that since we did the 5.63 increase that was with the 1.5 that adding 1.7 million ought to be at least a direction that we ask the city manager to include in the budget so remember what i said the beginning we counsel make the hard decision but we see what that that results in along the way total amount of money what kind of tax rate is needed to support it what that bumps i mean to be quite honest these are all you know competing priorities and some we set aside every year and

[02:55:34] some we we move to the top along the way here but i want to have that i want to have those choices i don't want to have it decided for me but going into this here and then secondly yes you know The grant is $2.2 million, but maybe the all-ed program doesn't need $2.2 million to actually operate along the way here on that.

[02:56:01] And I'm not saying that that is money that gets included right now, but I do think we need to pay attention that if the customer satisfaction survey is saying public schools are ranking at the bottom, That we don't at least help and assist where the school board is determining one of the things that they think right now is a way of improving the schools.

[02:56:32] It's not going to be the only way. There are lots of needs there. They have to make the same decisions we do in terms of deciding what they can help with and what they can't help with in that regard. And then lastly, you know, we talk about the building and so forth. I do think, you know, just as we went out and we bought land for the new fire station, we bought land for the public safety building, we made those investments, that where we can, we should be assisting the school board, that if there are places where we have land, we heard earlier, you heard what I said,

[02:57:11] over a gateway, we own the land, that that's a perfect place to show our assistance and give our assistance there along the way here. Because to me, again, the top three things, public education is one of those three in my mind.

[02:57:26] And having said that, I hope that the direction we will begin is to at least on the salary increases, the $1.7 million, that we ask the city manager, put that in the budget, and let's see where we are and when he makes his presentation.

[02:57:46] And then from that point on, we can have the discussion. may not be 1.7, you know, we may not be able to give all that money because of other things that are far more immediate. But I want to have choices, and I think we all deserve that. And I think in fairness, given the situation, public education is one of those things that we really should be focusing in on, especially when we do our budget. Sorry it was so long, so passionate, but those are kind of culmination of my thoughts for the whole retreat. Yeah, I would take a suggested right

[02:58:22] a different approach, first off, I do agree about what I'm doing, because there's thoughts connected in my head, and she goes, wow, we're in the land. To me, I think the process should be, the manager produces a budget that the Apple staff, here's what it's supposed to be what we already do, and that's it. And again, the analysis agrees that we're not realistic

[02:58:58] going to look at raising the tax rate, that's the revenue projection, and then there's a delta. And there's lots of things that go into that delta, potentially into that delta, and you need to look for 1.7 to do that, but we've also got the request that we talked about removing a million dollars for, you know, fire registration fees, and free part-time people for car seller, and free firemen, and who knows what, and I think the better way is simply to have a list of options. Here are items that are at the top of priority.

[02:59:36] Maybe all of them fit. I don't know at this point or not. I don't think telling the manager we do this and we do this, right? The staff's already told you what they can do before. It was pretty spacious. But I think having essentially an open items list that we can again, going back to past experience, no one's going to look cut up for all of you.

[03:00:06] Yeah, we never, ever, ever, ever show down that way. So, again, you've got to delta, and whatever that number is, let's lay the things out and move pieces on the board and see where they can fit and, frankly, what shows up in the prior position.

[03:00:30] Thank you, my mayor. I just want to chime in in support of the comment and what I picked up from the extent of the meaning of Councilman Wolfson, Wolf 2, but of Councilman Saino's presentation a few moments ago, particularly as the things of over-arching outcome of this retreat, upon reflecting on what these buildings are about when it comes down to the money.

[03:01:05] And that's fine now, the executive of protection for the city. So I just want to go on record as in support of that thought process and the purpose of what he said, what I said, yeah, thank you.

[03:01:26] - Yeah, I mean, kind of echoing what Tom said, I think we saw in the community satisfaction survey that the schools need prioritization. You know, I think that we do need to go ahead and plan for continued support of the Alt-Ed program. maybe it's time to be to revisit the fixed 3% you know it sounds like we're already going to be above that but this year maybe we need to plan for that same number you know it may be even in excess of 3% of that next year it seems like we need to put a hold of one to get at what we want.

[03:02:04] I want to see the budget the way it was presented and then I want to look through

[03:02:14] I know that we are open to, you know, the range, but that is not, you know, that's not costing, you know, it's not putting money on it, even though it is a priority, but it's not like, you know, we're putting money, we're just allowing the lease to happen, and I, you know, I do worry about the 7% of stuff, because if the school is doing,

[03:02:45] 3% plus the older 6%, they are doing 5 or 10, and these go, you know, give them a little more, I don't know how much it costs, but then our other workforce, they want to work for the city, we are sending a message there is a 3%, there is still a mix of 3%, some mine is one and some other times different, and they know all kind of different things.

[03:03:14] So I pulled out a priority and all the conversations. What I wanted to hear is what they needed as a priority, and they have said it. And in the two priorities, I didn't hear the building. I don't know if I'm correct.

[03:03:30] So I'm like, you know, that will be our future. So, if they are not making this building a priority out of the content they have ready, I think I want to, you know, allow, you know, that to happen in this country.

[03:03:52] Because I think that is so well-mitted and from that perspective, I just, you know, I want to do it, I will support it, you know, when we get there. My concern is hearing back from our ICM how they're going to look like four-hour staff on what they see as meeting with the department or meeting with me, there might be more staff coming up because they are known from the funding.

[03:04:27] So those things are worrying me. And for me, I would like to see what's two hours per summit and for the building. We can make it a priority when we're ready, but I'm hoping to find whether it's, you know, in our current properties or finding new properties.

[03:04:48] We're starting to find, you know, ways to let go or something, some things for future investments. I think within all of our properties, we will find, we will find something that works.

[03:05:04] I think what I would like to see from the next meeting is maybe to have the appointment of, you know, the mayor and the vice mayor to continue not only the conversation with the school, but the same as the conversation with the council.

[03:05:24] So I believe those two should give us a final step. I hope that was helpful. That's it. Well, I feel I need to say something, okay?

[03:05:43] Please, Mike, we did this at our meeting, right? Dr. Newman and I work together every day. We're extremely supportive of each other. I'm supportive of the schools because at times some of these conversations get muddied up or used by others to say I personally or you, the city, are not supportive of our school nothing is further from the truth I think if Dr.

[03:06:17] Newman was here he would echo that he did in the meeting with the vice mayor and the mayor so when I make comments or share information it is truly only to provide you information so that you can make better decisions so I based historically one of the things that became confusing for you muddied up however we were working we the city have a different pay philosophy than the

[03:06:53] schools and that's okay that's their decision not ours right but it goes back to a comment that you made mr. Christina because I do want to credit you and our staff we do very targeted pay band adjustments as we call the market, because not every position, every position is valued, but the market is different for different positions.

[03:07:19] And this is, Ms. Luna, you would recall when she was on the task force, that became a heated topic in those negotiations because you believed you were given $1.5 million to enhance teacher salaries, then the conversation turned into something different to everyone.

[03:07:39] And so I think if we do, whatever we do, again, we need to be cleared. And I'm sorry that I corrected you. It's not teacher pay. It's everybody's pay. And that, as you were pointing out, maybe, I can't remember, that becomes internally for your staff, whoa, wait a second, that's different.

[03:08:08] So, and that's okay, right? We, we, you don't get paid that much, but we get paid to make these tough decisions, and we will, and we'll communicate it and have those conversations with that. But that's outside of your control at that point, unless it gets into, like it did last year, which was a very long, drawn-out conversation, and very pointed to where you, you basically had to control where that money went from.

[03:08:39] And Mayor, so number one, I always appreciate what staff has to say here. But staff is not the ultimate, even in building the budget, first of all. Otherwise, why are we doing here at this retreat?

[03:08:57] We could have just had staff sit and put things and said, you know, these are the priorities. We help shape it, partly for information. And so I've always looked at this process to be very hopeful, because then when the city manager's budget is presented, there are already things in there I go, I know what that's about.

[03:09:17] I understand why that's there, but we had a consensus, or at least a majority of people said, this is worth considering along the way. So I very much want to push back on the idea that I want to have hands-off along the way, or we should have hands-off.

[03:09:33] And I know that's a little bit extreme, what Mark was saying, but secondly, on just the pay thing, you know, you're right. Within the city, a few years ago, we deliberately said 3%, I believe, and then the numbers could be a little off, so forgive me memory here, 3% salary increases for city staff, but for law enforcement, maybe it was fire and EMT or whatever.

[03:10:06] It was going to go up to 6%. And we were going to let city manager, obviously, to decide how that was. And all city staff had to live with that along the way. This task force, as I understand it, did two things. One is, yeah, we did have to finally make it very clear that the 1.5 that we had allocated originally, you know, was for teacher pay.

[03:10:30] But we also, I think, through that had a very good, from what I heard afterwards from at least our representatives on there, is that we had a very good discussion with them about looking at their pay levels, their pay grades, recognizing that across the board may not be the best way, that we have found it effective, that there are places where you need to address maybe more with a higher increase than others.

[03:11:00] I believe from what I heard, and I can't name specifics, but you met with Dr. Newman, so you probably heard some of this, is that they looked at some of their step levels and saw there were adjustments that had to be made there. And so perhaps they allocated more.

[03:11:16] Remember, they're just talking about cross the board, but how they allocate through the step levels, who knows? Because that's not our purpose or our minutiae there along the way. And the last thought is, it's great to have this list, but I want everyone to understand that if you go in and you say, all right, here is the tax rate, And it's the same or lower than what we're at right now.

[03:11:42] And you're going to let that be your guiding thing and say, I've got, you wanted this list now of all this other stuff. And to add it in means that tax rate has to go up without cutting something else out. I hope we all have the courage to make those kinds of decisions.

[03:11:58] That's the approach that is taken. Because as I said at the beginning, my first comment is, I don't want to back into a predetermined tax rate. I mean, my goodness, we have a lot of needs to meet. We've got to figure out how to do that.

[03:12:14] And yes, we have to have affordability as part of that, no question. But let council do that. I've got to know what the picture is. And if there are already things that are cut out without I can't see the full picture, I'm just, you know, I'm already handicapped here on that.

[03:12:32] And that's why I'm not necessarily really enamored with the idea that here we go. are the basic services that we here are the same things that we did last year and this is what it is now here on column b you know this is what this would cost and raise this is this and this and this because i i i bet you i know what exactly will happen we'll say no we're going to play it safe and we're going to be right here and we're not going to put any of those in i will i and i'd rather um what i'm looking for is a much fuller picture and see where you've heard some of our

[03:13:07] priorities or my priority is I think it's quite legitimate you know we gave them 1.5 in the current year we were we gave them the year before in fiscal year 24 half of that 1.5 is what we allocated there they're asking for 1.7 for their their salary increases so you know we've already accommodated in this budget that year that we're in right now the 5.63 percent increase maybe that's the guidance is is that on this one to the city manager and staff is continue to do that don't use three

[03:13:47] percent use five point six three or six percent you know whatever on on that sort of thing because three percent isn't going to get us where where i think we need to be at least when it comes to meeting their number one priority and especially what's happening right next door to us and we'll never beat them i understand that we understood that with the police we were never there in the market, ever beat the police, you know, pay as much as even a firefighter in D.C. can make a lot more money than we'll ever pay. But we weren't going to go and just go, oh, well, you know,

[03:14:24] we'll just do this kind of small increase and hope for the best. Because we know what happens when you lose people, all the training time, all the learning time. In the case of education, the loss, what happens to the students? And again, I remind you where that ranked on that customer service study and either we we are going to listen to that we're going to pay attention to that and especially the consistency of that or I don't know why we bother doing it I really don't sorry

[03:15:21] Well, remember, you have to advertise they do not exceed rates. So it doesn't matter what may be on that list. They will not be able to exceed that tax rate. So that may be the number when we start off at.

[03:15:40] They respond. So all the more reason I want a fuller picture at the very beginning because you're exactly right. Because at a very early date, we need to at least determine what leeway we might need just in case there.

[03:16:01] Because most of our work sessions are after the time we set the advertisement, is all I'm saying. So I think that's a good point I hadn't thought of here. You're full of good ideas.

[03:16:18] I have a pad full of good ideas from everybody here. Really, seriously. I'm done for 25. Don't ask what I'm doing. I do.

[03:16:37] So we have one more thing that's just getting your input of individuals you want to. But Mr. Acena, Councilman Acena, has been very clear. But that was not the direction of the majority on how to build a budget.

[03:17:00] we want to continue the conversation and i think i said everything i was trying to persuade others well i i think this counts ashley certainly was receptive to that i know was was leaning toward me no yes

[03:17:34] I think what we're saying is let's not go in with the preconceived notion of what we want to. It's just let's consider, I think one thing we're trying to attempt to ensure that the school board, and I think we all, but it's good to remind ourselves, is on the same level that the elder two trial others, isn't it?

[03:17:58] Yeah. And so the folks for the budget for the elders do use that same approach as I think they're considering all the other quests, remembering how much emphasis we have put on education. And sometimes, the tendency often when we talk about education is the program is straight into the classroom and straight into different results and all of that, but there are components that go to that. You have to have the teachers on staff, you have to have quality, you have quality program and all those things, you have to have the soldiers and all that, so it's not

[03:18:33] just we're given enough money to teach, it's what the money is being used, how it's being utilized and put towards the greater goal is excellent education. So I'm not suggesting that we have an amazing change in the process, it's just that, it's It's like I referenced this the other day when we were talking about what we hear from Leslie is, don't raise my taxes, but I want all these items, and I understand those items are personal, their own personal choices.

[03:19:11] Well, when you say don't raise your taxes, but you ask for all these services, you are asking me to at least consider that as an option so you can provide the services I want. And I think that, I'm not caviating my support of what I'm saying, I'm simply saying, let's have an open mind when we start considering what our values are and what our priorities are.

[03:19:35] So my conversations with Dr. Newman, right, that number I gave you was all in. I've got to keep step-by-step with Prince William County, but my conversations with him, again, based upon our relationship and how I would have planned on approaching the budget,

[03:19:54] Hey, I'm not going to be able to give you the 170. What if I give you, what if we're able to do a million? And he says anything above what I'm getting, that's where it's going to go and that's a step in the right direction. And I, philosophically, you know, Mr. Smith is right. I mean, if they can't hire and retain teachers, ultimately that's going to mean more kids in the classroom. And we know that is not a good thing as well when you start talking about it.

[03:20:23] So his being able to recruit and retain teachers and staff is just as important as you pointed out of recruiting, retaining cops. It's just as important, and I think I've got the direction of it.

[03:20:39] Even that as an example is what I'm talking about. Kevin has always, Dr. Newman has always lately said that, I need this, but I'll keep you appreciate what I need to do. And I appreciate that attitude of gratitude, but mentally we should not say, look, I don't have to fret through the question too much because the superintendent is amenable.

[03:21:10] I mean, in reality, he's right. He's got to work with whatever he gives to us, but that's not how I would sit down and start in the back of my mind. But I don't have to take Kevin too seriously because he's already saying, I'll take you whatever you give. I'm simply saying, let's look at what he really needs, what they're asking for, and if they can be supported and we do that with the comfort law and we still want the compensation but the man would appreciate what else we can do it's all about how we approach that Yeah.

[03:21:39] Right. Hi Emma. One would be, or place in the city won't cost money, which is the, if their grant fails, then we will pull out a piece of money from the money that they already have, and they are making a priority, they're making a sale.

[03:21:59] So I'm in agreement with that, because I need, you know, I wasn't in favor of that. That was one of the asks. The other asks is, before I make the decision, how much is on things? I don't actually know yet. I need to set the test values for that. It's 725 in the current year, but I don't know the new value.

[03:22:24] So if it was 2 pennies, it would be like 7, 8, 7, 7, 7, 4, 3, 1, 5, 5, 5, 6, 7. I'm willing to deal with that, but to deal with 2 pennies, to allocate only on the budget.

[03:22:40] with the consensus that they need to make from the board that they need to make their priorities. Because it's about no blanket, it's about them using the money for their priorities like they used with the last 1.5.

[03:22:57] Or even if it was 1.5, I don't know if you have it, but my ask, I agree you had agreed that you build a budget with an extra, or the extra 1.5, but I don't think that, you know, for everybody, the 1.7, I would like to see, even if the rate is high here, to make that $725,000 for the current year.

[03:23:30] Okay. So, $725,000? Okay. That'll change. So I'm asking if the budget can include the 4.5, 3 plus 1.5, and the 1.5 in charge of the people that they have major needs, because we won't be in no case.

[03:24:02] I don't know if there are any others will support it, but with that I will support it. The motion that you made it was to ask, even if the rate is higher, to consider the full MIAC and the commitment is for the premium.

[03:24:29] It might be on the new hire, but it takes it back to them to make that decision. One last thing, out of fairness to Mr. Burke, the number started to rattle in my brain.

[03:24:58] The 3% increase that we're providing them is about 1.5 million? 1.8. Now, the 1.8 number that we're increasing this year includes a 5%.

[03:25:14] Approximately 5% rate. So I'm trying to figure out, to go from five to seven is $1.7 million request. Well, at 1.3% they have other incremental costs, whether it's... Yeah, contract costs and everything else, stuff like that, it goes into that.

[03:25:32] But again, if a 5% salary increase and everything fits into the $1.8 million, then how does additional 2% to get to the seven percent salary equate to 1.7 and I apologize that when I started thinking about that the math just didn't make sense. I think I think that the 3 million you know they're also building in

[03:26:06] contract costs, health costs, toilet paper, electricity, whatever else, all the other increasing costs are assumed into that three percent. I think the best way to answer your question is actually go talk further. I mean but now we're getting in the weeds and we're trying to answer stuff that we were really you know even if we had a joint meeting and stuff.

[03:26:33] We have one coming up. These would be good questions ahead of time to pass on the document so they can discuss them. In any future you know sort of high level I call them chairs maybe that you have just just clarity for oh so as mr.

[03:26:58] Burke if I'm clear from our previous conversation as of right now I intend to present the city manager budget whether we have a new city manager coming on voice is that correct yes I think that's fair to him as well not making him do this and I think I've got enough direction to get myself in trouble when it's time to present but I I think I'm good

[03:27:30] on this topic okay okay I have a moment and just I think we can move but I do want to want to say how much I appreciate you stepping up to be our interim city manager here you know we've said it what have you but you know we all started with i'm sure with a little trepidation along the way here and uh the fact that you can now grow a beard and be on my side of the table here shows how comfortable you are you can end and and ralph here uh that we can do that but seriously it's uh

[03:28:08] been a pleasure to have you do all this be kind enough to let us have candid conversations not letting us but having them and not making it personal or having it personal and making sure at the end of the day that we walk away all as friends, colleagues. So the next day we can argue again, but we all have the right, we're all trying to reach the same goal. We are generous and very much appreciated. I'm sure we all have more things to say in the future. I've told you privately, I've told you publicly, I'm very appreciative of your support, how you treated me. You know,

[03:28:48] we've had many conversations I would tell you the last 15 months my my biggest struggle was that decision of do we continue with this or not that that was not an easy decision for me to make but I think it was the one I needed to make for my heart and for my family that I shared with each one of them as well okay let's move on before we all get get upset and I'll start hugging Mr. Smith

[03:29:19] I mean, you were doing this job, and you continue to ask me for the job, but I, you know, like, I don't know how you did it, but I cannot thank you enough, and I hope that you will do that, and I think it will be, you know, on a different stage in February, but I think with the work of the leadership, we didn't have been able to have enough time, and everything that we needed to be, you know,

[03:29:50] You're welcome. We're all one team with our own responsibilities, but we're all trying to move ahead. So we're good. I'm going to move. Earlier he said he was a model. I think I said that last night.

[03:30:10] I think the last topic is really wrap up in summary of the future work section topics. We've mentioned a couple of these. You already know you have Matt coming up with the comprehensive plan, and I've explained that I know we all need an update of the commercial air service or app port.

[03:30:30] Are there any other specific topics that you know of today, or if there is, if you think about it over the next few days, please forward them to me. Oh, okay. Tell me now. That's great.

[03:30:45] And I'll put it right. I've been thinking about when you're talking about downtown activities and all of that. And I understand, I believe there's a charter or a document connecting HMI with the Manasseh City relationship. And the only one I could find is about a few years old. And I'd I'd like for us to consider, look at it, and have some other consideration about some options about the City Council's relationship with HMI.

[03:31:20] I don't think there's a council person that's under the appointment process or anything like that. But throw it out there for a broader discussion about council's role and interaction with HMI.

[03:31:38] Sort of a staff analysis. If nothing else, I'll call it a contract. The document is an issue. If for nothing else, it needs to be updated for language.

[03:31:53] Does it also need to be updated for specifics and interactions and so forth? They have asked for a meeting with Mr. Burke, myself, Patrick, and Matt to discuss the MOU.

[03:32:09] They're asking for additional funding as well. But it wasn't part of this because I need to hear from, we need to hear from them before I bring anything to you to find out what their concerns are. So I've got that on the list as well.

[03:32:25] And I think probably this meeting with them, they're going to end up asking to have an opportunity to come before me. Okay. Thank you. Madam Mayor? I got a list here. That's right.

[03:32:42] One. One. No. This is in relation to my work as chair of the appointments committee. I had become aware earlier. So you remember last year in the springtime we made a decision, I believe, I think it was last year in the spring, we made a decision that we would not be compensating any of the members of any boards, commissions, committees.

[03:33:15] You know, we were doing some and not others and so when we adopt that order since that time late late last year became aware and I did turn to the Deputy City Attorney for help but by statute in Virginia We are required to pay certain ones to put together that list at the same time I've asked the deputy clerk to put together a list of compensation that nearby jurisdictions pay their members, so we have that. So at some point, I'd be happy to put that all together for the city manager,

[03:33:51] get that to you, see how it's consolidated, but I, so that there is a discussion as to whether we do want to go back to compensating any, but more importantly, we will have to change, I believe, the, our resolution, because there's certain ones that we just have to pay, and

[03:34:11] the fact that we're not paying right now puts us in violation of state law there. So that's just one. Hold on. And again, I put down to be good, and Matt and I have talked back and forth on this, on stuff, but we've heard, you know, I have that big umbrella of quality of life issues, and therefore, you know, you could put all sorts of stuff there, you know, parking, some of the things we've addressed along the way, but there are others.

[03:34:40] I think for the benefit of our residents, we want to be sure that since we heard from them, that at least we have that as an item to hear about some of the things. Coda forms and parking to track. I made a list here that we can have.

[03:34:56] So our residents see, you know, first of all, we're looking at it. And more importantly, we're informed because I fully expect that we'll hear from residents, continue to hear on this issue. And it would be helpful to be able to say, this is what's available.

[03:35:12] Are we properly, some of it is, are we properly staffed? Do we have enough? Do adjustments have to be made? You know, the way of filing a complaint, is that the best system there along the way here? And under that umbrella, the mayor was good enough last year to have a, what do we call it, neighborhood leadership sessions with HOAs and other neighborhood leaders that didn't have an HOA and so forth.

[03:35:38] There was so much good feedback as I went around, not just at my HOA, but others, and it's been a little while, I think it solves a lot of communications. It'd be great not to have another one or two of them. I know. Super, okay, good. Okay, and that's it. Thank you.

[03:36:06] When we talk about a confrontation, I want to make sure that we see whether we pay or they are getting paid from that board or that commission for the prison house because some of them do their pay.

[03:36:25] So, we might still get paid right now. Like the state, since the state is private. Yeah, so if I'm, if, to give you an, let me see, if I was at the. Your jail board remembered the county for the board of zone on utilization I think is required to be state by state by state.

[03:36:48] Well I'm more talking about if there is a payment I want to make sure that that is protected because when someone is applying for the job I want to make sure that they know because we don't say that but it does make a difference.

[03:37:07] whole point of this it was everybody involved here uh they you know everything and donna when he uh so why why are they one they have to say whether they're paying for

[03:37:31] he's working on that only right along with the deputy city attorney putting down what what the actual statutes say first of all along the way but i did want you to see what what other jurisdictions because i figured that question might come up it's just easier to have the information that's what all at one time but i'll work through the city manager to make sure that's put together so and we'll look at it non-play don't get a move up no no no yeah what i'm saying is to ask you to do that and let's make sure that uh maybe with the clerks or i don't know who is in charge of that but do we have a comprehensive list whether

[03:38:10] Right now, nobody's being paid. Yes, the water treatment, the U.S.A. Yeah, U.S.A. people, but that comes from a different source.

[03:38:26] Yeah, they serve on the U.S.A. board. What I'm saying is the list needs to show that position, whoever is sent, will be paid, even though you're not writing a check.

[03:38:42] understand exactly what your ask is and he said he would work with us with that list of getting together I actually I got it I got it okay a resident I don't remember who or one or two residents there I think the inquiry was so I'm looking at Amelia's memo for Aaron for instance

[03:39:17] Board of Zoning Appeals. I think there was a gentleman who made an email request there, you know, I'm not supposed to, am I supposed to, or I'm not proceeding, and I thought, you know, by law, that sort of thing, Board of Equalization, again, the two that are mentioned here.

[03:39:40] When you see the memo that Amelia put together, what she did was she essentially took all our boards, committees, and commissions, and then she said, here's what the statute says, if anything, and if nothing, she'll, you know, it says no mention of payment, you know, like beautification, no mention of payment.

[03:40:08] What I'm doing, why I asked for the other list is just so we could see, because the The second thing I've been asked several times is would you, you know, I believe we bring expertise on my particular thing, you know, I could be, you know, elsewhere and I really like what, you know, it was a small token to show appreciation and so on. But so I said, I will be happy to bring it forth. So there is a full design. So that two items just putting them together.

[03:40:43] Mayor, I think on behalf of staff, we have made it through our agenda and our items. I believe we have gotten any answers or head nods to most of the things we've asked. And we have a lot of work ahead of us.

[03:41:00] Appreciate your commitment and dedication that's coming down here. I think it's a good plan, especially when you have a new member joining city council. There's a lot of team building and dynamics that need to be worked out.

[03:41:17] I think this facility, I've said this before, this is a unique center of just who it is. James Madison, Constitution, governance, everything that goes with it is a little bit inspirational, and I think, at least for me, I think we've accomplished a great deal moving forward with a lot of things we've worked for the past year we've got direction now it's time to put this into action appreciate it

[03:41:50] hey and now we're

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