Coraggio Consulting
Manassas City Council 10/14/2025

Date: Tuesday, October 14, 2025
Place: Manassas City Council, Virginia
Length: 1h 57m (video)
Official meeting video (Wistia / RegionalWebTV): https://fast.wistia.net/embed/iframe/xniog5koa3

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-17. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:12:56] The city council joint meeting with our economic development authority to order. Mr. Smith, please call the council roll. Mayor Davis Younger. Present. Vice Mayor Wolfe. Yo. Council Member Smith. Here. Council Member Ellis. Here.

[00:13:11] Council Member Osina. Here. Council Member Vasquez. Here. Thank you. Chair. I'd like to go ahead and call our EDA meeting to order. Six o'clock joint session with the city council.

[00:13:28] Ms. Morrissey, if you wouldn't mind. Ms. Bass? Here. Ms. Harover? Here. Mr. Flood? Here. Ms. Marisi, yes. Mr. Naylor? Not present. Ms. Patrick? Here. Thank you. You have a board. Thank you.

[00:13:43] And Mr. Naylor is on his way, so he should be here shortly. He's coming from D.C. So we have one item on the agenda for tonight. It is listed as discussion item, draft plans for the Manassas Shopping Center. And we have a presentation from the EDA and folks that they have assigned.

[00:14:02] That's Denise in the middle there, in case y'all didn't know. If you hadn't figured that out, that's her in the middle there and our good citizen. These are some smart young men that are standing behind me. To be able to use that and get some points. I get it, right. I want to thank everybody, the residents, for coming out tonight as well.

[00:14:19] Thank you so much for being here and joining us in our meeting. We're looking forward to a good presentation. So I'll bounce to you, however you want to introduce them. or yes I'll do happy to madam mayor thank you so much first of all I want to thank City Council for joining us this evening for those of you that are new to the room my name is Denise here over I'm the chair of the EDA these two gentlemen are from roadside and have been working with myself and Matt are sorry from your from the city side in looking at opportunities that we

[00:14:59] met with the citizens of Manassas this past summer. How many of you actually came to our community conversation? That's fantastic. I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised. The purpose of the mission this summer was to get input from the citizens about what they'd like to see in that corridor along Mathis Avenue and and clearly what we've what we've tried to do is take all the citizen input and apply it to that

[00:15:34] corridor we have a few alternatives that we're going to go over because clearly you just can't put one idea out there what I'd like everyone including city council to keep in mind is things of this nature these are ideas we are looking at blocks and how much we can I know I don't need Did this change?

[00:15:55] Oh, okay. It's just the broadcast outside. You're not going to hear it in here. Fantastic. You're good. You're good. Let's keep in mind when we're looking at the block, we are trying to figure out what it is we'd all like to see. And even though we may have things actually labeled as commercial or residential, we're just trying to show what the block would look like.

[00:16:17] The blocks could be, the pieces can be changed. Pieces can be commercial. They can be residential. They can even be retail. The feedback we're looking for tonight in particular is from City Council. If what they look at, what they like or what they would like to see more of, that's the kind of input we're looking from for City Council.

[00:16:42] But we definitely want to give you the overview with the citizens' input in mind as well. So with that, I'm going to go ahead. Hello, everybody. Hello.

[00:16:58] My name is Sokruti Ghosh. I'm a principal with RHI. We're a landscape architecture planning and urban design firm based in Alexandria, Virginia. And we are very fortunate to be here working with you and the community through the community conversations for the Manassas Shopping Center site.

[00:17:15] I want to thank Denise, Larry, Matt, who has been guiding us throughout this process as well as the EDA board. So, Madam Mayor, members of the City Council and the EDA Board, thank you for this opportunity.

[00:17:31] With me, we have Jules Krinsky. He's a senior associate with RHI, and he has been involved in developing the plan concepts and guiding the whole community conversation process to this point. As we know, we are here to talk about the Manassas Shopping Center, which has deep roots with the community.

[00:17:50] It has served us well when it opened back in 1959, and we are going to be talking about looking towards the future. There is so much potential for this site. It has served the community well, but it has way too much potential because of its location, because of the fabric, the urban fabric it is located within.

[00:18:11] So we're going to be talking about that. And then earlier this year, as Denise mentioned, we took the vacant site and a blank site to the community conversation and got really, really good feedback. We are going to share with you the key takeaways from that feedback and how we have taken that key takeaway in developing some of these alternative concepts.

[00:18:34] And one thing that I would mention is, when you look into the concepts, the three basic principles that we heard from the community, and we have applied that to the alternative concepts, are creating a mixed-use neighborhood. Right now, it's a shopping center, and it has outlived its current needs.

[00:18:54] So how can we create a more vibrant community place at the gateway to downtown Manassas? Second is creating placemaking and creating more experiences. We need that because that site is located within the big urban fabric of Liberia House, Annaberg Manor, downtown.

[00:19:16] It's almost like a stepping stone coming out of 66. It's the main gateway into one of the main gateways into downtown Manassas. So like I've said, we're going to start with sharing some background, the context.

[00:19:31] We'll share the feedback from the community conversations and then how we have taken the community conversations and developed these alternative concepts. And towards the end, we'll love to have a discussion. We'd love to get your feedback, as Denise mentioned, especially from the city council.

[00:19:49] And we'll go through all of those conversations. Very quickly, you know this site at the back of your palm just for orientation purpose, not this to the right in here. So the site is approximately 15 acres, located very well, as I mentioned before, on Centerville and Mathies Avenue and Sudley Road, main roads leading into downtown Manassas.

[00:20:13] So it's a big gateway site. It has the potential to be a champion site within the city of Manassas. So that's the potential. It is wedged between two historic districts, of course, the downtown historic district and the Liberia historic district to the north of this site.

[00:20:30] And the Annenberg Manor is just to the south side of this. Next. So these are some pictures and images from the existing context. So before we dive into all of the future, I wanted to again mention that back when it started in 1959, it was a great place to be in.

[00:20:53] It was easy access, easy parking to the site. local merchants were there, and it supported the convenience for a lot of the community members throughout all of these years. But this whole car-centric, auto-centric, and a little bit more fragmented shopping center is in need for revitalization. So as you can see, some of the surrounding fabric, there are commercial spaces on the other side of Mathis Avenue. There is

[00:21:31] residential along portner avenue um there is existing condominiums and single family homes under the other side of portner avenue and um this is showing the breezeway between the shopping center if you have frequented the shopping center you know that very well just to the south of the ice skating um area or the valley rather um there is this breezeway which connects the parking areas over to the backside of all of those condominiums and the residential areas on Portner.

[00:22:06] Next. So this redevelopment is not part of the moment idea. This is kind of a result of years of thoughtful planning by the city, getting feedback from the community. And this started back in 2006 when the city developed the Mathies Avenue Sector Plan.

[00:22:26] And we are fortunate to have worked with all of you in development of that Matthews Avenue Sector Plan. So it's good to see after 20 years, we're starting to see how that can be implemented with the community vision. The Matthews Avenue Sector Plan recommended a few things.

[00:22:43] One is creation of mixed-use neighborhood and then how you can connect this site and utilize this site to connect to downtown from the neighborhoods. And that idea that was developed back in 2006 is reinforced by the subsequent planning studies like the 2040 Comprehensive Plan, which reinforced those ideas and added additional ideas like diversity of housing options, creation of more green spaces, providing those community spaces, and then connecting to the downtown area and utilizing this site, connecting to the downtown area

[00:23:20] with multimodal, walkable, bikeable, pedestrian-friendly environment. And we can do that through the help of the ARPA grants today. Quickly, the project schedule.

[00:23:36] I know you are excited to see the concepts, but these are some of the background. This is roughly a 10-month process we are going through. Currently, we are hot into the development of alternative concepts. And today is an exciting opportunity to get feedback from you all.

[00:23:53] We'll take that under advisement and refine the concepts and come back to the community next month, November 13th. We have a public open house scheduled for that day where we will be sharing what we have heard from the community, what are the key takeaways, and how we have taken those key takeaways in developing the concepts.

[00:24:15] And then finally, we'll take those ideas and what we have heard from the community and refine the plan and share it back with all of you, the leadership group. Community conversations. As Denise mentioned, that was great. Next. We had two community conversations back in June, both held on Tuesdays, one week apart, so that it provided the opportunity for a multitude of citizens and residents and business owners and stakeholders to attend the community conversations.

[00:24:48] We had over 100 participation, like 50 plus, bless you, 50 plus for each one of those community conversations. And then we also had 67 online participants. We had a survey.

[00:25:04] We uploaded all of the exhibits and the ideas and the blank slate, and we got 67 different online responses. The setup of the committee conversations was, it was a presentation for 20 minutes to introduce the site and show the pros and cons for the site so that the attendees can get an idea.

[00:25:28] Then they were broken out into different breakout rooms. There were 11 of them over two days, five and six. And within those breakout rooms, it is like this room, all of the rooms along this hallway, we utilized all of these rooms. And there was a central table where we had the blank site with different kind of precedent images of what can happen in that site.

[00:25:51] And we had six different breakout questions. And these are the questions that we utilized during the breakout sessions. The top row is about the building and its uses. What is the building intensity that you would like to see in here?

[00:26:08] and what kind of the character or the architectural styles that you would like to see in this site. On the bottom, we also asked about what kind of public spaces. Where do you want to see it? What kind of amenities that you would like to see in those public spaces?

[00:26:24] And then we also talked about the connectivity, moving in and out, not only along the periphery of the site, but also through the site. What can be added? How can you utilize this site to connect the neighborhood into all of the other destinations throughout the site and finally we also asked about what are the top concerns and the priorities based on what they have already given the feedback then we went back to the presentation room and there was a debrief from each one of those breakout sessions and interestingly enough all of the community conversations I mean there was like a common commonality between

[00:27:03] all of the feedback that we have we have been received we have received so a few things that jumped out to us. Mixed-use streetscape, providing horizontal and vertical mix-up uses. Townhomes, we know that they sell like hotcakes in this market, so everybody loved the idea about putting in townhomes and multifamily. Retail streetscape along Matthews Avenue, that was highly voted, creating traditional green plazas. It's a little bit different from what's there in Annaberg Manor

[00:27:40] area. It's about creating the community gathering spaces and providing another neighborhood amenity in this area of Manassas. And these are some of the key takeaways. As I mentioned before, mixed use was the highest preference with regards to what the community shared with us.

[00:28:00] Range of housing types. Affordability was highly desired. There was a strong desire for new dining options and shopping options with creating some experiential retail and restaurants. development with a range of two to four stories, improved connectivity around the site, including bike and pedestrian, as well as creating great community space in this area. We also looked into the regulatory context, the framework of the site. Very quickly, the zoning for the site currently is

[00:28:38] B4, which does not allow any residential mixed use to happen. So with any kind of rezoning, it would unlock the potential for the redevelopment to happen. So keep that in mind as we go forward. This is a framework diagram and a summary from what we have heard from the community.

[00:28:59] The main thing to note in here is this is Mathis Avenue, this is Portner, this is Sudley, and the people's feedback was the highest density should be along Mathis Avenue with the transition back into the neighborhood, lower density towards Portner Avenue. And the red color to the yellow color, that gradient that you see is showing higher intensity of uses like retail and commercial over to a lower intensity of uses. You see these green blobs in here. Those are not, they're not

[00:29:35] saying that there has to be green spaces all around. These are potential areas where green spaces and community spaces can happen. One of the things that they mentioned, there can be a central green space. There can be a green space because this is the main and main intersection of this site, Sudley and Mathis. And some folks also mentioned about a green space at Portner and Sudley. But a lot of people actually mentioned there should be a buffer and a linear green space between the existing condominiums and the new development, which not only creates an amenity, but also creates a buffer between the different uses.

[00:30:14] Also, we talked about the different kinds of connectivity, and this is based on what we know from the Mathies Avenue Sector Plan, creating more connections into the neighborhood. Finally, the key takeaways, issues, and opportunities.

[00:30:30] The challenges are pretty clear. It's very car-centric right now. The zoning is restrictive, and there are active leases on the property, which matures at different times. But the opportunities are very compelling. You can create a mixed-use neighborhood, as I mentioned before, creating community gathering spaces, and the development can happen in phases.

[00:30:54] And then the new street connections can almost connect the dots between when you're coming from the gateway from 66 or Prince William Parkway from Liberia House to Annaburk Manor. This is almost like a stepping stone going into downtown Manassas.

[00:31:12] Next. We also looked into the market analysis. We looked into the different market sectors, especially the retail. The retail sector is stable with low vacancy citywide, so it's doing well. Based on our market analysis, we estimated around 25,000 to 40,000 square feet of retail and commercial that can happen on this site with flexibility of adding a little bit more if you're adding more experiential kind of retail.

[00:31:40] With the office market, it has been performing positively over the past 10 years or so in this area. And it mainly, for this site, it mainly can support small-scale office spaces, professional office spaces, and like businesses, attorneys, lawyers kind of spaces.

[00:32:01] On the residential side of things, there is a strong demand for multifamily, as I mentioned before. The townhomes are a hut in this market. So there is a lot of desire for those kind of uses. And with the rising rents, the multifamily makes sense in this market.

[00:32:21] And this would also provide some kind of buffer from the higher intensity mix of uses along Mathis over to Portner with multifamily uses lining that backside on the western side of the property. With that, I'm going to turn it over to Jules, who is going to walk you through the concepts, which are based on all of these ideas that we have heard from the community conversations.

[00:32:45] Thank you, Security. So as Security mentioned, this process was driven by the community. So ultimately, we're going to share with you two concepts today. But it was an iterative process that started with the community conversations and mapping with community that also kind of worked, developed with the EDA working group and the city and ultimately multiple concepts were generated before we landed on the final two concepts.

[00:33:16] sorry next slide from the community conversations we developed some principles and objectives that you'll see in each of the concepts relating to building and intensity there's a increased building intensity along Mathis Avenue and that intensity becomes less as you get to Portner Avenue along the residential areas there's a diverse mix of uses and residential development in In terms of parking, there's a mix of on-street parking and off-street parking.

[00:33:53] There's targeted access along Mathis Avenue and Portner Avenue. In green spaces, there's a central community green space in each of our concepts, as well as a linear park and pocket parks throughout the concepts, and also tree-lined streets and walkability throughout the concepts.

[00:34:16] So I'll kind of go back to some of these things in each of our concepts. So again, for concept alternative A, you see the transition of density from residential along Portner Avenue to a higher intensity as you get to Mathis Avenue with anchor buildings along Sudley and Mathis as well.

[00:34:38] And in this concept, it's anchored by a central pedestrian plaza here in the middle of the development with access to the site along Carriage Way going through and also another access point of the site along Mathis Avenue connecting through to Portner Avenue.

[00:34:56] There is a linear park that buffers the existing residential areas and also creates small opportunities for public gathering places along the park, as well as creating opportunities to access the site from the residential areas.

[00:35:15] In terms of parking, most of the parking is hidden behind the buildings, leaving Mathis Avenue activated as an activated streetscape, as well as some teaser parking in front that kind of allows for quick access to the site.

[00:35:32] Some of these precedent images kind of show some character of the site here, your kind of signature mixed-use building at the corner of Sudley and Mathis, your linear park towards the rear of the site. In the center park gathering spot, we kind of allude to the idea of a small commercial kiosk, and then towards the back, buffering the residential, some townhomes, and again, this photo showing kind of a character of the plaza area.

[00:36:02] In the next slide, this kind of takes that concept and simplifies it as a diagram for people to kind of read it a little bit better. In the pink, you can see the circulation throughout the site from Carriage Lane through to Portner Avenue and Mathis here.

[00:36:23] In green, you can see the linear green space. That's the existing buffer at the back of the site. And here you can see the central plaza as well connecting to Mathis Avenue. One thing to point out, Carriage Lane is the one traffic light intersection along Mathis Avenue.

[00:36:43] The other connection along Mathis Avenue is right in, right out only. The same with Portner Avenue there. And one thing we want to point out that we kind of studied multiple options for connectivity here. So there is an option that eliminates the connectivity from Mathis Avenue to Portner Avenue.

[00:37:02] So essentially the green space continues through the space and there is no connection from Mathis Avenue to Portner Avenue. to that point we coordinated with the city transportation group because we wanted to make sure whatever we were looking at doing here also tied back into the mathis street plans um in particular as jules mentioned you know carriage lane already has a signal so clearly we do not

[00:37:34] need to have as many um driveway cuts into the shopping center as are currently shown so we are wanting to limit the access, keep the full movement at the light, and we were talking right in right out at the only. Portner Avenue, we are looking at whether that should be cut off completely to circulating into the center or not, and then we're also looking at alternative concepts for that corner. Portner and, Oh, could be civilized, excuse me, could be civilized.

[00:38:12] Eventually, it will be civilized with development like this. Got ahead of myself, sorry. And then clearly, we were also looking at alternatives along the court term. As I mentioned earlier, you can think of these as pieces.

[00:38:28] Some of these pieces could be residential. Some of these pieces could be commercial. Some of them could be multifamily. We could do triplexes, duplexes. We were just trying to get -- something to give us a sense of scope and how much we can have here and we challenged ourselves with looking at the commercial retail along mathis and how much of that could we provide because in theory a good developer could come in here and potentially do this development and be able

[00:39:06] to keep some of the existing tenants that we currently have at the shopping center um i know most of us are big fans of prices, but there's also a lot of other retail users that have been serving our community for a very long time. So that was kind of the intention here, and then clearly we heard the community speak, and they wanted to have some sort of connectivity.

[00:39:33] We looked at this linear park, and the reason this linear park is where it's at. Everybody's familiar with the driveway aisle behind the shopping center. That is actually a shared use access. The shopping center does not own all of that. Some of that is owned by the Portner Town House Homeowners Association. We do have an access easement that allows us use, but we do not control that. So in the words of Mr. Van Meter, you need to control your own destiny. With that

[00:40:11] in mind, we've looked at creating this linear park. A, this provides a nice long connectivity that could take us directly over to the existing Annaberg, connect us hopefully now in the future to the Liberia, either through this linear park or bringing you back to Mathis. But that was the genesis for having some connectivity to some of the existing city features immediately located.

[00:40:40] And then, of course, we need some green space and some gathering space within the block itself. And again, my reason for jumping in is keep in mind these blocks can be whatever we choose.

[00:40:59] We know attainable housing is something that everyone in the city is working towards. We can clearly look at doing whatever we want in any of these large blocks or even in towns or triplexes. All those quadruplexes. There's plenty of opportunity here for that. We'd like to have some feedback from the city to what extent they want to see retail or commercial or office or the attainable housing so that we can start defining these pieces a little better.

[00:41:33] Go over some boring numbers really quick. In this concept, we have approximately 50,000 square feet of commercial space. We have 122 multifamily units. We crunched the numbers on the parking requirement, and it's 338 spaces required. We're showing 338 spaces currently, surface parking, excluding the on-street parking. So if you included the on-street parking, there's more spaces available. And we're showing approximately 42 townhome multi-plex buildings to the rear of

[00:42:12] the property here. And in the next slide here, you get a sense of the scale of the development in this perspective here. So again, hitting the major principles, the increasing density from residential to the rear of the property to a higher intensity along Mathis. You have an anchor building on the corner of Mathis and Sudley. And again, in this concept, the central pedestrian plaza. So it's car-free, focused in the center of the site. And this is your kind of experiential retail area. So that's the core of your commercial space here. So for concept

[00:42:52] alternative B, there's a lot of similar items on here. Again, the increasing of intensity from residential along Portner to a more intense mixed-use development along Mathis Avenue. The main difference in this concept is your community space is shifted to Carriage Lane, and as mentioned before, Carriage Lane is the only future potential intersection of the site.

[00:43:19] So for access in this concept, we thought that we should kind of focus over here. Again, you have your linear park that buffers the existing residential, and then you have a central park and gathering space located off Carriage Lane, a mix of teaser parking and parking hidden behind the mixed-use buildings here.

[00:43:42] If you go to the next slide, again, just kind of a quick diagram just showing you what this concept is about. You have access off of Carriage Lane and a future traffic light intersection, and then you have two write-in, write-outs connecting into the site, a potential to connect to Portner Avenue here with, again, the potential to eliminate that connection so that there would be no through connection to Portner. And as Denise mentioned, the existing alleyway for the residential has a connection here that goes through to Portner. Again, you have your linear green space. You have

[00:44:20] your connection into the site from the neighborhood. You have your connection to the main central Plaza, and not previously mentioned, the improved pedestrian bicycle connectivity along Mathis Avenue, which according to those plans, is a 12-foot wide bicycle path and a multi-use path as well. And again, looking at the numbers, a little over 58,000 square feet commercial space, 129 mixed-use, 229 multifamily units, 371 parking spaces required. We're showing 373 excluding

[00:44:59] on-street parking, and approximately 42 townhome or multiplex buildings, depending on how we want to develop that. And again, looking at the perspective here, your lower density along Portner Avenue, increasing in density as you get to Mathis Avenue, your anchor building here at sudley and mathis and then again in this concept the main difference is that central plaza space is shifted to carriage lane there and you kind of have a bit of a main street with kind of your main

[00:45:34] avenue going down and this is the core of your commercial development so with that those are the two exciting concepts we have been working with the core group that i mentioned so we'd like to have a discussion, get your initial feedback and initial detailed feedback. I'm sure that you got a chance to peek into your packages, but we'd love to have the conversation. And these are some of the questions that we have. We do not have to stick to those questions. We'd love to get your

[00:46:10] feedback. And the questions are about the identity and the character that we are showing in these two concepts about the housing mix and the affordable housing locations we have shared with you in these two concepts the potential locations of those affordable and the attainable housing in the site we also wanted to hear want to hear from you regarding the green spaces plazas and the parks the location of those we are showing two different alternative locations do you agree with those do you like those? What kind of amenities that we should amenitize those spaces with? And then,

[00:46:48] of course, your top concerns and priorities for the two different concepts. We do not have to, like I said, we do not have to stick to those questions. We'd love to get your feedback. With that, the floor is yours. I saw Mr. Osina's hand first. We'll start with Mr. Osina. That's right.

[00:47:07] Well, thank you very much for all of this. I know these, you know, all of this does not come come easily there's a lot of work and taking comments that we we we all provide and trying to to to flesh those out here uh is is a difficult challenge here um and so please do not take my remarks i do not mean these remarks to be negative but i hope they really go to to number

[00:47:43] four so having looked at this and then hearing the presentation well my reaction is i could i I could remove the street signs, you know, street names, concept, and take this and plunk it down.

[00:48:03] And this would be like, this is Tom talking, that this is, I could find this development anywhere. There's nothing unique about it. There's nothing, nothing special about this.

[00:48:19] This is land planning, late 20th century, early 21st century. And I will tell you that when I signed on to this project, I did not want something that I can find in Manassas, Prince William County, somewhere else.

[00:48:47] I want a place that's iconic, has the potential to be iconic. A place that is using, that looks ahead to what planning concepts might be for the future.

[00:49:08] And how do I get that? Because how do I want people to live in this area, or how do I want people to live in Manassas for the mid to the latter part of the 21st century?

[00:49:26] And so when I look at this, I go, same old, same old, nothing special about it. There's way too much detail for me at this point about, I'm not ready to tell you what kind of houses I want or should be there.

[00:49:43] In fact, I really want our residents, the people who live here, going to experience this and possibly live there, shop there, to have another crack at things. So I've tried to think, how do I articulate this in a way that would help us understand what I'm talking about?

[00:50:07] So I wrote myself a whole bunch of notes, and some are a little more specific than others and so forth. First of all, I believe this site needs to have multifunctional spaces, flexible layouts that can adapt to changing needs.

[00:50:28] I do not want necessarily dedicated retail, and we're locked in. This retail has to be. It could be converted to living space. It could be adapted to meeting space, community space of some sort.

[00:50:47] first of all i know that exists out there now i'm not an architect and i'm not a landscape designer and i am not but i do know that how we live now is not how we are going to live 50 years from now because all i have to do is go back 50 years of my life and know the way we live when i was a kid is not how we live now first of all along the way and so i need some i need vision first of all and

[00:51:22] I'm not asking necessarily that you are the sole proprietors and have all that knowledge. I believe our residents have a great deal of useful knowledge. But I need you to be the insightful ones and not, if we focus on all the details of townhouses here, this here, this there, at this point.

[00:51:46] Because we have a remarkable opportunity. We have some luxury of some time because of the leases, how long they go and so forth, for us to actually do some really thoughtful, in-depth work here.

[00:52:02] I don't want this necessarily done by January of 2026 at this point, all right? So that would be sort of what I'm, I mean, I bring that up, and I mean that nicely. I mean, I really do in that.

[00:52:20] I want some thoughtful design. I look at that and I say we're still tied to all that parking area, all that automobile stuff. I want us to at least question whether that is what we should have.

[00:52:37] Or if we do say we want it, the ways we can adapt it later on so it doesn't, you know, things change where we can use it in a different way. That also speaks to the green space.

[00:52:53] I think I, you know, when I heard our residents say they wanted green space there, I do not think that they were thinking of a linear park as the green space.

[00:53:11] Now, I understand why you want it, why it's there. I live in a community that has a linear park, and I will tell you it is not a gathering place. It's a place to walk your dogs, it's a way to walk around or whatever. It does not serve the function of what I think our residents were saying.

[00:53:29] Certainly not what I was thinking when we talk about green space along the way here. And so I want some thoughtfulness into how we create a community there that actually allows people to have a community and live there.

[00:53:50] Think about the people living there. Forget the retail. How those people live there and how do I get them to interact? What a wonderful opportunity for us now to do that. We have too many other places where you have cul-de-sacs and you drive down and you might know your neighbor, you might not know your neighbor.

[00:54:07] Or if you live in a townhome like I do, you know your neighbors, but you know them because they have the loud music or the barking dog or whatever. How do we get people to actually live? And I'm really focused on people who are going to be our homeowner or who are going to be renting.

[00:54:27] So that would be younger people along the way. What are they looking for? what there are trends there that are important do they all want to work from home maybe i don't know but i i i don't want to see something that looks like what it what what's there you know uh in in that that that kind of thing i want that to be pedestrian friendly that is not pedestrian friendly when you've got all that that parking there along the way and and that sort of thing how do we do

[00:55:01] that or biking or you know those sorts of things so what i i would suggest as we talk about this that it would i think our residents would benefit the next time we invite them in for a community conversation is to have four to five suggestions not very complicated definitely not getting into exactly town home what have you just say housing or whatever at this point excuse me and allow

[00:55:36] people instead of having them in in in you know where we sought ideas they actually evaluate that and give us feedback on let's say they're five some of them with streets all the way through some where you don't have any street some that have most each each quadrant has a park as the focal point perhaps i don't know i'm just saying let's have a bunch of ideas for our residents to look at for the next time around so I'm not asking you to commit to you know detailed drawings and

[00:56:12] more more like that yeah this sort of thing and saying where would you or everybody gets a chart I don't want to get into that much detail as to have the process but I want that conversation to continue and then we can start sorting out because i hear i will say this i hear we always talk about retail but we also know when we talk about retail in different places in old town and then we see what's there retail didn't go there it's either bacon or offices go there or a bank goes there

[00:56:51] or a service goes there so let's finally be realistic we're not going to have tons and tons of retail there? I don't think. The market may be good overall, but is the market good there? And more importantly, what does that bring that community along the way? You know, maybe we need a community such as where we go to some larger cities where you go there, and right in the middle of where everybody lives, there's a dry coos, there's a laundromat, you know, right in the smack in the middle. Why? Because people just can walk to it along the way. It's supported there. There's

[00:57:30] a little hardware store you know when we talked about and i don't mean this badly but like you i want to retain our tenants but also keep in mind this is where these people are going to live they're going to be people living there and do you want to live where everyone's driving in to go to the hardware store or to the liquor store necessarily here don't you want your services to be connected Well, maybe we do want that.

[00:57:58] There are times I come home and I'd love to have one nearby. But anyway, but you get my point is what I want is a different way of looking at this sort of thing. And when I say iconic, you know, over time, the pavilion became one of our symbols for our city.

[00:58:20] When it was first built, it wasn't. But over time, it has become accepted and everything that was built around it. I'm hopeful that if we do our work right now, over the next period of time we have, we're going to create a place that is going to be as iconic, but different than any other place in Old Town, excuse me, in Manassas.

[00:58:46] That would be my desire, because I really want more input and less specificity, if that's the right word, if I can say it, for that. And thank you for letting me have all this extra time. Thank you. Next, comments?

[00:59:04] Ms. Hudson. Thank you. Thank you all for the presentation and your work so far. Thank you also, Councilman Ossino, for very thoughtful comments about what this could look like for the future. There are a couple things Tom said that I was thinking, too.

[00:59:20] For one, I think we're calling a buffer space a linear park, and this probably wouldn't be used as much of a park. You know, it's really more of just a buffer. And I think a lot of the community did say green space, and these images aren't really showing a lot of green space.

[00:59:38] In terms of the gathering areas, for me, if carriage lane is going to be a traffic light, I would prefer the gathering space be more centralized like it is in this image. But I think it could be just larger.

[00:59:54] Personally, I think this whole thing needs a splash pad. If you're taking notes on what things need, I think that'd be good. And another, so if I'm reading this correctly, in the market analysis, it says that retail appropriately would be 25,000 to 40,000 square feet, but in these drawings, we have over 50,000 square feet in both.

[01:00:19] We are in a national housing crisis. I think we should focus more on housing than commercial. I don't necessarily know that we need this much standalone commercial in this site. I think, you know, I think a lot of us discussed affordable housing, attainable housing going here.

[01:00:38] And, you know, that doesn't seem to be a large priority based on these drawings either, as much as I think we all want it to be. And I also have concerns about the access to the, like, existing residential parking at Long Street, I guess.

[01:01:03] I think it would be wise of us to utilize as much of this land for, like, housing rather than, like, driving through it. Like, I don't think it needs as many drive-throughs, and I'm not sure that those who live back there would want there to be another access point to that shopping center there.

[01:01:27] I think it might be good for the folks to, like, turn in on Longstreet, but then have it, like, cut off, like, not be able to drive all the way through to Mathis. And I think that's, yeah, it just seems like way too much commercial. And that we need a splash pad.

[01:01:46] That's so much bad. For Tom the Shark. That's all I got. Thank you. I saw Mark. Go ahead, Teresa. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead, Teresa. I might agree with you. It's all yours, Teresa. Okay.

[01:02:01] A couple questions. I'm just trying to remind myself. We are going to be selling this property, not developing it. It's right. To be determined. To be determined. Okay. I actually, the things that stand out for me the most are, is it possible to put a parking garage in this property somewhere?

[01:02:28] And only because it might take away a lot of the sea of parking. We could use parking for Annaberg, could use parking for Liberia. We're supposed to be making a tourism corridor going up Mathis and Centerville Road up to the Manassas Park Line.

[01:02:50] So I think, I understand the maximum of 373 spaces on that lot. But if we're really looking to the future and how we're trying to connect our city, our historic Manassas, to this tourism corridor, could we possibly do that?

[01:03:09] I know it's expensive, but, you know, as Tom's saying, we've got to think more about the vision of the future for this important site. That's one thought. another thing i really would like to see for that corner piece of porter and sully to be a park um that that piece that piece was kind of purchased after the fact and it's supposed to be a gateway little area it would be nice for the apartments as well as the townhouses and this new

[01:03:47] community it would give us more green space in the city um the plaza if we're going to pick a concept uh a just as a general idea it looks like it's the same size as the uh auto park so i'm trying to look at the scale there it's about 100 feet wide by space okay i mean i would still keep that and i don't know if we can do something with the town homes where we can maybe do two over twos

[01:04:20] Since we'll lose the townhomes with a park, you know, add some more residential to that row. And that's really my comments. Okay.

[01:04:36] Thank you. Mr. Wolf. How many people can I have said one time? It's feedback. I appreciate that. We're bringing a community conversation to you.

[01:04:52] We're looking for your input. I agree with a lot of what Tom said. This could be Plano, Texas. You sit there and say, we're going to relocate the water tower at the fire department, and that's going to be the centerpiece of this development, something like that.

[01:05:08] Would you like us to relocate the water tower onto this site? Well, at some point, that's a conversation that's going to be had. So I guess what I'm going to start with is I think we've got a rush to judgment.

[01:05:28] Can you remember how this all came about? This came about because of the tail end of a luncheon conversation. And this sort of fell into our lap. This was, I mean, we, yes, we've been talking about this since 2006. And I've been in innumerable of these meetings.

[01:05:45] But the idea was, okay, we've got this asset. We don't have to develop it today or tomorrow. And to be honest, when we did this, I was thinking if it was 10 or 15 years, that'd be just fine.

[01:06:01] Because there's a lot that's going to change. And particularly with the other things that have gone on in the community. So to me, we've got to get the landings. We've got the old downtown project. We need to get that done. And we need to see what those really look like.

[01:06:17] And frankly, we're not operating in a vacuum. Because we've got everything that George Mason is doing in innovation and all the other development going out there. And we're a piece of that puzzle. And we need to really understand the puzzle a little bit before we rush to judgment.

[01:06:35] So, again, I'm perfectly fine. I don't need to do anything for right now. Having said that, I'll keep my train of thought now. I think some things, what Teresa talked about, a parking deck.

[01:06:56] Well, a parking deck takes a lot of money, and we all know that. But that gets back to, really, what is this? And to me, you split the baby boom, to be honest.

[01:07:13] So we've got a light residential development, 120 units. Well, I guarantee you, none of the conversations I've had, employment conversations, envisioned any number as low as 120 units. And to think about it, $20,000 a unit you're going to get from the developer, right, that's our order.

[01:07:32] That's $2.5 million. And we pay $16 million. So, I mean, just working through this, because that's a part of the equation back here that I've got to consider. The other side of the spectrum is where they're European-style, dense, you know, four- or five-story build-out.

[01:07:58] And it looks like Thessalonk here, Athens, or whatever like that. but you get density. For retail to work, we all know, you've got to have density. This is not dense. That part of Manassas, I know, is not dense.

[01:08:14] Gary Rappaport a long time ago told me, one of the Manassas province has got too much retail. And all that's being added, again, innovation and everything else, there's more and more and more, and we compete in that public. So, again, that gets me back to, I'm not just, I need to see where things are going before I'm willing to jump and put my chips in.

[01:08:37] I agree with Ashley, I'm not particularly enamored with the idea of a multitude of cross streets, because that just eats the property. Again, the linear part, I understand it, but yeah, buffer is the better term for it, and grass has got to be mowed.

[01:09:01] In Georgetown South, it's more of an issue or potential problem area than a benefit. And no, I'm not giving you anything positive to work with, and I apologize for that. would disagree okay yeah you better remember that's why we're here yeah we want to hear what your thought part partly is and again with common actually is is i want to be wild and i'm not in your business i but it's it's like i'll know it when i see it and i'll sit there and and again

[01:09:38] this is this is plano this is this is plano parkway and whatever like it is okay and which is which is good and fine. But it's not. And the other thing I would say, and again, at the risk of facing people, I would not oversell the gateway idea. This is not a gateway to Old Town. People aren't going here and then walking into Old Town. It doesn't happen. So is it in a progression

[01:10:07] between Old Town and Liberia? Yeah. But this is really a standalone mini regional center for community and and i think part of the the conundrum we've got to go through is is is it a regional what it's been a regional shopping center or is it really becoming more and more just a part and parcel of the residential community that is on the other side of the portland and i'll close with

[01:10:40] this is is we can't you know we it's a miracle this dropped our lap we can't project what's going to happen across the street before dealership for everything else uh but we've got to recognize the nature of the property.

[01:10:56] Mathis is not a thoroughfare. I think one of the studies talked about it. That's a limitation on retail. You're not getting the car count going by. You're not going to draw people off Center for Road unless it is some kind of really special destination.

[01:11:13] And that's a big challenge. I mean, it's just a block, but it's a big challenge. So I guess to me, it's sort of like we keep noodling. And when we find it, we find it. And we know it, and we go, yes!

[01:11:30] And until then, eh, you know, the plaza's there, it's fine, the road's paved, people are paying rents, we're making money, life is good. Mr. Smith, you have your hand up.

[01:11:49] I would probably have on my EDA liaison hat more than council hat at the moment. Speak up, speak up. Well, my concern is, no, my observation is that if I were sitting as a voting member of EDA, I would say, finally, I'm here in the direction council wants us to take.

[01:12:18] I say it that way because some of the guidance that we gave EDA going in is what we objected, what we'd like to see and all. Among that was we don't want a vacant spot. Thus, we don't want a lot of leases given out.

[01:12:35] We don't want a lot of extended leases. And that was fine. But what I'm hearing now is EDA needs to hear what is council expecting of them.

[01:12:51] Because with some of the revisions in our thinking at this point creates a whole new set of problems for how EDA is going to manage that property. I hear people saying 10 years from now, 15 years from now.

[01:13:07] At the same time, there were a couple of meetings in which the council, some who have changed perspectives tonight, said, we don't want vacancies on this end. So, therefore, don't be giving out long-term leases. So, I'm not arguing about what the changes should be and all of that, but I can only imagine our next EDA meeting having to take a different direction than what EDA was planning to take.

[01:13:34] So I am concerned about when the council, between their next EDA meeting, is going to have a meeting in which it is in agreement as to what we charge EDA with. Because in our meeting earlier tonight, we even had some discussions about what leases we can enter and issue or renew.

[01:13:57] And my recollection was exactly like the director's, is that full speed ahead in making this race available for development. If that is our direction, then we need to also give a lot of consideration to managing that space until we decide which future we want to operate in.

[01:14:26] Go ahead. Thank you, Madam Mayor. It has been a great discussion. I don't feel like we have to give you a great way to go from here. But I'll start with the questions. I mean, I understand, I mean, now that we see it and we feel it, it's a little bit more real.

[01:14:46] But what I want to keep in mind is that these concepts were built on over 100 people feedback that showed up. And, you know, I agree with many things that were said, but at the same time, I want to be able to honor those that make time to give us feedback to continue to be in place.

[01:15:10] So for the first, the concepts reflect the desired identity and character. You know, there is a few things that are really worrying. I do believe there is too many details, too low the density. You know, that's nothing that I was thinking about.

[01:15:27] And, you know, it's just, you know, my perspective. Especially at the corner, I would say, or at least in Sudley, We know we have the roundabout coming there, and that will make a change, you know, up there. And then it is, you know, it is a high flow.

[01:15:45] So it is, that one is, what, the 7-Eleven? The, you know, I'm trying to put that into perspective, yes. And then I want to honor the neighbors that we have, because I want this to feel no, you know, to feel the concept of you know a newer neighborhood but no different i i know you know i wanted to blend i don't know if that you know is making it more complicated but i just also want to make sure that we honor the the neighbors that we have around and uh the big box in the corner i'm not feeling it i'm just you know letting you know

[01:16:24] i think it was down here and then and the gateway i love the plaza or at least whatever that plaza will look like to feel like manassas or like a like a stairway for the old town uh i you know i whatever that plaza goes i think it will be important it will be great to have again i'm not feeling the big buildings that's you know coming in because it's like some of you said it feels like uh you know just another place you know like when you're going to 34 and all they have is parking on their big retails in the back so that's that's what i'm feeling that you know

[01:17:03] that's my impression i guess and then uh for the proposed yes i want to see a mix of housing i want to see attainable housing for me it's not only about the young adults they are entering they're coming into the market but also the elder we need to be looking out for them and it might be too early in the conversation but i want to make sure that i say that because it's important for for manassas right now and uh the other you know for me we can never forget about

[01:17:35] our workforce not only our teachers firefighters and and police but everybody that work for us because i think about you know if they are able to live here so when it comes to be attainable that's part of what i'm looking at i do understand what uh vice mayor wolf is saying about how the other players are going to look because that's going to give us a a different perspective and i you know i do believe that will make an impact and it will maybe help us change a little bit what we can do here what we're going to do but that will uh take some time um so i you know i

[01:18:15] I do want to see more density. I love the mix. I just don't think I was thinking of just, you know, that low density. I really was looking for more, even if it took a little bit higher level of buildings.

[01:18:36] You know, the green space, I love the buffer. I love, you know, for people to be able to walk there. I just wouldn't call it a park. We do have Annaberg right there, like two blocks.

[01:18:53] So it is a beautiful place that we haven't bested so much, and it will be for the future. I think it's still going to be a walkable place for everybody to enjoy. So I would like to see a great space here. But knowing that the other one is so close, I wouldn't be trying to put a whole lot of space on that Because I'm more thinking about the attainable homes or the, you know, first-time homes to make it, you know, just to have amenities.

[01:19:24] But I'm not thinking about making a whole parking there. And I hope that is helpful. The top priorities, you know, for me, the top priorities is to have commercial that will be helpful for those that live there and those that live around there.

[01:19:41] So I know the ABC is doing well there. I even look at our, what do you call it, the places you want to go in Manassas, the places to visit. And ABC was there, and I'm like, okay, what are we going there for? And I have seen the lights, but within that, you know, I'm like, you know, that will be something that is still going to be live and well, and it might even have to expand.

[01:20:05] But, you know, I'm also looking into, you know, other retail that might come. I'm like, I'm not blind. I see the line at Chipotle, and we don't have a Chipotle in the city. I see, you know, Chick-fil-A is on tourist place with the lines that they have.

[01:20:22] So I'm not saying that, but, you know, I'm not saying bring that because by no means, you know, that's not the way I feel. But I'm just hoping for more, but at the same time, I want people to feel they are living in Manassas, and they feel Manassas when they live here.

[01:20:42] And I agree more with, you know, Councilman Ossina when he's talking about in 30 years, you know, the reason why we're doing this investment is going to take 30, 40, 50 years into the future, and I want us to be able to honor that.

[01:21:01] So I've been to other places, you know, I don't want to say this is too plain. I think this is amazing for the first two concepts. I just feel like we have more work to do, And I appreciate everybody's work on, and especially those that showed up, and also everybody that's here tonight, because you are making it better.

[01:21:21] You are making this a priority, and I believe as we continue to honor everybody's feedback, we will get to the concept that is going to, you know, take place. Thank you, Madam Mayor. Yeah, just one little detail, and you may be aware of this, but go to the site manager.

[01:21:39] yeah just if you look at the border between the property and the porter townhomes the likelihood that we were going to need to make some kind of boundary adjustment yeah okay yeah just point that out yeah right here yeah well probably the entire strip yeah we need to yeah because yeah

[01:22:02] Thank you. Another thought, as Vice Mayor Wolf was saying, alluding that this isn't really going to be as walkable or as accessible to downtown, I disagree.

[01:22:21] I think the side where it's like mixed use flats above commercial, that's very close to Old Town and echoing Councilman Tobias Luna, very close to Annenberg as a park and gathering place. I think it's worth considering that whole parcel being housing, because that is the closest thing to Old Town, and I think as we progress into the future, people want to be able to access Old Town, and you need people that will walk to Old Town from much further than that parcel is.

[01:22:53] So I think focusing dense housing there might be impactful for the access to Old Town. The Manassas Christmas Parade stage is on Mathis Avenue, and the last carriage is all the way back here.

[01:23:10] And people walk all the way through Old Town. Most people won't do it on a regular basis, but it will be done at least once a year. Edie, oh, go ahead. I know we talked about density.

[01:23:27] I am not opposed to going higher in this spot with height. just because we are not dealing with the historic charm of our old town this is an area where we actually could go higher for density if we wanted to support the mixed-use and commercial as a vice mayor was talking about I think if we're going to do it I'm not saying a skyscraper by any means but we certainly could go you know higher at one point the plan the math is having a quarter

[01:24:06] plane actually envision six to eight story on this and going to Senegal Road and we took the community's feedback and everybody was comfortable for a few people some groups didn't have a problem with going five clearly you know the mindset with construction you could do four with the wooden frame and anything over that you're going to concrete if you're going to go over that you might will go big. But how big is that? And to your point, this is why we needed to have this conversation. We have taken the input from the citizens and now we need the vision of

[01:24:44] the council to kind of help us bring this all together. What I'm taking away from this conversation is we are, and I will not disagree with this, and I'm putting on my PDA chair I felt that the density that we were getting here was pretty low, but also being conservative and making sure we weren't looking at something with parking structures, because parking structures are prohibitively expensive, and you have to have something to offset that with to make it worthwhile from a developer's perspective.

[01:25:20] So, to Council Member Osina's point, we can do a wow. That is not hard to put together concepts that will take us into larger wow territory. We're happy to do wow.

[01:25:36] We don't get to do wow often. We get to do practical and what will sell a lot, but wow we can do. Wow on a budget. Don't go crazy on me. Don't go crazy on me. Because we don't know when we'll have this charge.

[01:25:55] Mark, Sonia has. I was going to say that's exactly the point. This gets back to what Teresa was asking, is this sold-off property or not? And getting a start point, a concept, going to the development community and having them come back to us with what's literally viable economically.

[01:26:19] Because the city, I don't think the city is going to fund the construction of any of these structures. No. So you're looking at what's economically viable in the marketplace.

[01:26:36] And there's a lot of really well-known developers that will tell you that pretty quick and easy. But the other piece of the puzzle, and this is where Mr. Horsiera is behind me, and this is not a standalone piece of property. If you look at a 25 to 100-year horizon, all Mathis Corridor and the area over to Centerville Road is in play.

[01:27:01] And that's where the Mathis Avenue plan from 2006, which actually went to the other side of Centerville Road, if I remember correctly, as a visioning process. This has to fit into that, or vice versa.

[01:27:17] Because putting a five-story or whatever building at the corner of Mathis and Sudley, right now will stick out like a sore thumb. And it's only viable long-term if it's filled in across the street with like product.

[01:27:34] And again, that's where the development community has to tell us, yeah, you know, I think that in X number of years, this is a likelihood or not. Because if it's not, then you can't go down that road. It won't support it and you'll kill the community.

[01:27:53] Ms. Vasquez, cut her off, Mark. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No, you said a small comment. That was a whole speech. Well, one thing is, don't forget the camera is there. So when you move a little bit too much, then, you know, you kind of get to block.

[01:28:13] One of the things that I didn't say much, it was the residents talk about how they want different levels. And I do, you know, all the time when we talk about this project, I always thought of, you know, four or five stories.

[01:28:29] But I'm also mindful that it's not going to be a, you know, just dislike this one in the corner. I dislike the one in the corner because it's too tall and it's the entrance, it's the gate one. That's why I don't like that. But when it comes to the center and other spaces, you know, that, to me, at least that's what I, you know, had in mind.

[01:28:49] And I believe in order to get the density and to make a big statement for attainable, that level has to be there. I just want to honor the neighbors because I wouldn't, you know, like they're doing other places.

[01:29:04] I wouldn't want to, you know, have that six-story building next to the townhome. You know what? Yeah, more intense in this direction, less intense as you get to work on it. And the second part that I didn't see here, and I understand, we've seen it many times, is how the leases, I believe they're mostly on the left or in the middle, how those leases are going to impact the product, whether it's going to be one project or two projects.

[01:29:35] And I know the majority agree that it's one project, and they more than likely will have to wait. But if it is possible to do two, how will that work? Not two projects, but phase one or phase two. SO THAT'S THE OTHER THING THAT I, YOU KNOW, I DIDN'T SEE THERE THAT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT.

[01:29:52] AND IF WE ARE THINKING THAT, YOU KNOW, PART OF THE PRODUCT IS GOING TO BE FOR THE SAME COMMERCIAL RIGHT NOW, THEN, YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO BE LOOKING AT WHAT THEY NEED AND WHERE WE'LL GO ON PHASE ONE OR PHASE TWO. BUT, YEAH, THAT'S IT.

[01:30:11] GO AHEAD. NO, NO, NO. DID YOU WANT TO SAY SOMETHING? NO, I WAS GOING TO CALL ON YOU, BUT I'M GOING TO MAKE SURE TO GET EDA COMMENTS AS WELL. SO, AFTER COUNCIL MEMBERS FINISH. Well, just feeding off, part of this is also, as we talk about this, there are people out there watching what we're considering and what's being considered, let's put it that way.

[01:30:36] And that's going to have some influence along the way. In some ways, along Mathis, there are things, I'll call them un... There are certain gems that need a little polishing and spiffing and so forth, and I'll just go to the other corner of Mathis and Liberia.

[01:30:56] You've got the start of an entertainment district for Mathis. Salisbury Center, you've got Magic Kingdom Golf. Is that the right name of it? Putt-putt place. Yeah, the Putt-Putt. You've got Nathan's. You know, those are three. Within Salisbury Center, there's, found out this past weekend, there's a restaurant within the Salisbury Center.

[01:31:20] I don't know that it's open every night, But, you know, again, things, somebody, by setting up that restaurant, somebody saw that there was business to be had. There was enough, you know, clientele to take advantage.

[01:31:36] And so let's do something and see how that works there and things of that sort. So to some degree as we do this. And so as since while we're going to take some time, I mean, because we have to to some degree, some of those things may help dictate that we work in conjunction.

[01:32:00] Someone may pop along and just say, hey, listen, across the street or down the street, I want to do something on this that suddenly starts talking to Matt. How does this fit together along the way here and those kinds of things. So I think these are all the different things that take place when a development gets started along the way here.

[01:32:28] But yes, clearly at the end of the day, it has to be economically viable, but that doesn't mean it can't be economically, wow, viable. How's that? Is that the right point? Right. Thank you, Mary. Anyone from EDA, I think we've heard at least once from all the council members.

[01:32:48] So I want to, if anyone has anything they want to contribute to the conversation, I don't want to leave y'all out. He's just sitting there like, what have we done? I'm looking at the chair, the vice chair to begin. You have to call on your people.

[01:33:04] Oh, I'm sorry. Does anyone from ADA want to give us a feedback? Ms. Patrick? Well, I appreciate the feedback to give us a direction for the existing tenants. I know we haven't talked much about that, and I like the concepts.

[01:33:22] thank you for all the work you've done I well everyone else is looking ahead I'm thinking of EDA's role in managing the current situation and how we transition from what is there now to hopefully future development so I appreciate that feedback on the timing because that is kind of new based on where we were six six to eight months ago, our last meeting with the City Council.

[01:33:51] No comments. Ms. Bass, all of this is interesting, and the best part of it is how it came out, those community conversations that I went to as well.

[01:34:07] And I know I've mentioned this at ADA meetings before, but that evening was refreshing, because it wasn't just us senior people who were there talking about what's going to happen 30 years down the road, but I won't be around, but it was a lot of newer and younger families who were talking to what they wanted to finish there.

[01:34:26] We picked up on a lot of that, and green spaces was one. We didn't hear, I didn't hear so much, you know, density, so I understand where you're coming from there too. And in my group, they talked about a walkover, suddenly road from this area over to where Commonwealth Senior Center is in that area.

[01:34:49] It would make it even more walkable and actually limit trucks coming down there too because they wouldn't be able to do that but anyway there are a lot of yeah there are a lot of interesting concepts that you know in addition to that and I'm thankful that council has shared their we've been waiting for this we want to hear the opinions so that we know what direction to take especially as you heard a little bit about the leasing situation and their businesses that want to commit to this movable let's say shopping center and others that are ready to move on too so thank

[01:35:22] you for that tonight. Mr. Flood, the U.S. member of our group. I have just a few comments. In the background I'm in, economic viability is you have some time. I think we should open up a little bit more in regards to developers. What do they see in this area? I know that developers can be a challenge

[01:36:00] to work with sometimes, and it's always contentious on what we can do, where developers can do it, but I think we need to understand that piece a little more. Council definitely needs to solidify around density, what type of density. There's a lot of opportunity for residential there. Do we need commercial? I think residential is more important. Those are my one-two comments.

[01:36:35] That's it. This was something else I meant to say. It was the discussion about commercial versus retail and I do commercial leasing and sales I'm in commercial real estate so what I would not want to see is that a lot of nationals come in that's what we call them like the national chains because this is as a local vibrant community of local businesses and I think in the community conversations we heard a lot of people mentioned the kind of services you need tonight we've heard

[01:37:08] dry cleaners or um or hardware stores but when you when you have a building that and this that needs to be economically viable sometimes the only users that can afford the space are national chains that's what i would say it's hard for the smaller businesses um so i think that we maybe should look again about do we what kind of retail do we want to encourage what kind of kind of commercial uses are they going to be service oriented for your neighborhood and that might mean a smaller footprint you know if you have a dry cleaners is it going to be somebody that

[01:37:47] processes on site probably not so you may not need as big of a square footage place are you going to have a restaurant well what kind of restaurant you're going to need the fans and the special hoods so you have to take that into account especially in a tall building and so you need to think of those types of uses because not everybody can fit into a 3,000 square foot space.

[01:38:09] A lot of people, in my experience, want a very smaller space. So I think that's a good discussion we should have or think about commercial versus retail. Thank you so very much. I want to echo a lot of the comments from everybody in the room that's given us a clear understanding. We've obviously heard from the council. As Mr. Smith kind of alluded to, we use the community conversation and a lot of different things to put this plan together and multiple hours of building it on some things that we thought it's good now

[01:38:45] that we can hear from the council more of what they're thinking, which appears to me to be a little bit different than what the community conversation is. But now we have a tertiary of our thoughts. We have what we thought from the conversation.

[01:39:02] We have the community conversation. And now we have council. So now we have to go back, obviously, and start looking at what that's going to be And, of course, there are some things that I've already written down that we're going to have to ask of Matt and several other folks to figure out how it's going to fit into the community to meet all the requirements that we're looking at.

[01:39:22] It is pretty apparent that not everybody is going to be satisfied with everything that is done. Go ahead. But we will do the best we can to meet the requirements of those who have given us the ability to plan accordingly and give the citizens what they need. So we just thank you, first of all, for allowing us the opportunity, but we're now, there's so much that we have to do and unpack out of everything that just happened here to make sure that we're clear on what the next steps are going to be.

[01:39:50] But this is a great conversation. I would say that I am surprised about how far off we are from each other, but it is good because this is what this is all about, and we'll go back, we'll do our work, and We'll come up with a plan, and hopefully it will ultimately meet requirements of the great citizens of this city.

[01:40:11] And that's what's important. Last thing, I'm sorry for being a little late. I was at the Association for the United States Army. So I'm talking to some folks from Noakesville up there, and one of the things that they actually said, I said, do you ever come to Manassas? And you're like, no, there's nothing there.

[01:40:29] So I think it was good that people were talking about things that are viable for not only that little space, in the city, but also that's going to bring other folks into it as well. So that's something we've got to think about, unless we don't want other folks to come into that place. We build it specifically for the people who are already there, because we know what they're looking for. Do we want it more viable? If it were up to me, I would say we need an Apple store in there. But we know that's not going to happen, but we'll have to figure out what life looks like. But thanks to everyone for doing this for us. Madam Chair, You're amazing.

[01:41:07] Roadside, for what you all have done, your labor is not in vain. I know we've got a lot more work to do. And for the council, thank you so much, Madam Mayor. And for the citizens who are sitting here, don't give up on us. We're going to get to an answer that's going to be more reasonable for everybody in the room.

[01:41:25] Can you continue the conversation? I mean, there's not a deadline. That's right. May I have a 10 second of your time? Yes, sir. There was a word you used then, and I knew exactly what you meant. But I'd like us to leave on this thought.

[01:41:42] You said that we would work very hard to give the citizens, the residents, what they need. Let's look at giving the residents what they ask for and what they want. Because it's tough for us to decide what the residents need. We had the conversations, and we walked too far away from those conversations.

[01:42:02] It's going to be once again the council dictated what they wanted. And for the record, that was synonymous with what you want. I know you meant that. Thank you for clarifying, Mr. Smith. Thank you.

[01:42:19] On your slide that you have the community conversation's key takeaways, that was in order of most, most, most, I don't remember what you said. You had the top row and the bottom row. It's not based on any kind of prior.

[01:42:35] So it wasn't, yeah. These are some of the ideas that we heard from the community on this. yeah yeah the mixed use was most preferred and out of the right but it just kind of the this is what the people who attended the group conversations this is what they said and what came out of that um and i i certainly think this was absolutely amazing conversation and it was needed and you know as you said it seems like we're in different directions but that's how we are going to come to the middle and meet it and we have time to do that however for me it is it took this long 1950

[01:43:14] whenever this came along and here we are in 2025 thinking about what to do i don't want council of 2075 sitting here deciding what to do because that's more money it's going to be more millions and more so it is it is incumbent upon us council you guys vote do it right as best you can put as much of yourselves into it as you can to take that away and go wow that council of 2025 they did their stuff they did the homework they talked they listened to the residents they did what they

[01:43:48] wanted or the best they could you know and so that that's just where I am I am a big you all know my historic downtown mom and pop shops are my heart I don't want to take anything away from them we can do this and make both sides i don't want to say side but all of it work um having new and bright and wonderful meeting residential needs that we so desperately need in the city along with having hey the historic charm because that still draws a lot of people here that still does it but around the corner we got this and you can actually walk you know

[01:44:25] have it all and like tom said you know wow me wow us you know on a budget i'll still say that but but but I want to see the the different I want to see oh they could have done this but they added that and that makes me really want to want to live there go there shop there be with folks there so it's that draw because we are special and I keep saying that we're 10 square miles and we got to get it right it's not throw out something stick at the wall or whatever go we got to be methodical and intentional about everything that we do and a lot of thought has to go into it and it's just

[01:45:02] It's not something that you can just rush into, which we're not doing. But I appreciate your time, and I hope you don't feel beat up, EDA. Because it is feedback, and you signed up for it like we do. Like we do, right?

[01:45:18] And it is our responsibility as council and as residents. We have to be good stewards of what we're put in charge of and listening and doing. We're not going to all get what we want, and we know that, but we have to do the best we can. And I know you all know that, but that was just pressing on my heart to say.

[01:45:37] I think it's an amazing, amazing opportunity to be speaking about growing in this day and age when so much is closing down and I worry about like the retail brick and mortar and office space and all of that. We hear all of that, so we don't want to get into something and go, oh, we shouldn't have done that.

[01:45:54] So we just have to give a lot of thought. So, council members, thank you for doing the homework and taking the time, and EDA folks as well. It is much appreciated, and I appreciate you, Denise and Larry, for your leadership of the EDA. You guys do an amazing job, and the fact that you're including, you know, that you're handling these types of things now make me happy, because it wasn't always like that, and Ms.

[01:46:17] Bass knows the EDA wasn't functional like this, and this makes me very happy that you guys are functioning in the space that you're supposed to be an EDA should be doing and that's taking care of getting property done and developed so I appreciate all your hard work so yeah you do so okay any anyone else any other comments hard to follow me I know but oh Steve just a couple of items one this presentation from roadside will be placed on the city's website

[01:46:55] okay okay okay wasn't there already it wasn't there already i thought it was out there on yeah on the meeting agenda okay but anyway i'm sorry i didn't mean to interrupt you go ahead and then we will plan to include a short discussion item on your 20th floor session for this so that what I'm hoping to do is translate some of the inferred permit with you so that then council can provide better firm direction to the desired timeline 25 years tomorrow as well as

[01:47:34] I think I think what we would also provide direction to the roadside is to come up with a concept a couple of concepts that have the density that's necessary to achieve a wild factor, a parking garage, just so that you and the EDA would then be able to see what that is and see if that is truly what we want, or if we have to scale back the expectations of a parking garage to a density that we're having.

[01:48:10] When are your next community conversations? Have you all set that up? January? November 13th, and then January as well. Okay, so November and January, and you're going to do like two, like you did? So the November 13th is currently scheduled to be a public open house.

[01:48:26] Oh, okay. That's what you were talking about. Okay. But I think we will discuss internally about the actual structure of the open house. Okay. How we want to conduct it. Right. Because when you say public open house to me, that does not say group conversation. That just says people showing up and going through.

[01:48:43] So I don't... Basically, we were going to go through the concepts with the citizens, just like we did with you. Oh, okay. So taking what you've done here. Taking some feedback from them, maybe not doing it in breakout groups, but having stage around some large maps so that people could give us instant feedback, whether they like the idea of, you know, the hard corner with the large building or a park on that corner instead of towns, that kind of feedback.

[01:49:15] So, like, the thought would be, I mean, could they, like, write notes on, you know, you'll have it on, and they'll, okay, okay. I just want to make sure that we get that, that they are able to provide feedback. If you have a meeting on the 20th, and Mr. Burke's going to have a conversation about trying to take some of the feedback that we have now, we can look at how we can integrate that or add to the conversation with that feedback.

[01:49:45] Madam Chair, along those lines, Council, Mayor, do we need to come back before we have the conversation with some of the things that we would probably add to the plan? Because I'm thinking the plan's going to be a little bit different than what it's shown tonight.

[01:50:05] So should we talk to council or at least give you a copy of what we're looking at? I think we need to get feedback from council. This might be more of a bubble plan than a specific plan.

[01:50:20] And to everyone's point, we're a few years out. So this is just trying to give us some ideas of what to look at here. So I guess my question for the council is, if we brief a plan similar to what you see tonight to the community.

[01:50:37] It's just getting their feedback. I mean, it's not. And then we go from there. Yeah. I didn't know if we needed to tweak it at all before we go. I don't know. I think you need to. We heard from the council. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Share that with the residents in terms of what they need to see.

[01:50:53] So if I understand, is it possible for you folks to incorporate some of the thoughts that you've heard along the way so that what is actually shared in that November community conversation is updated a little bit more?

[01:51:17] Yeah, I think there is opportunity. I think you mentioned previously about showing more of a bubble kind of a diagram rather than getting into the art structure. And we've worked with EDA and the city staff to perhaps maybe another alternative, another to show, like, what can be different, what can be some of the law factors, still considering some of the economic realities in mind.

[01:51:44] Exactly. Okay. So it sounds like it can be updated. Somewhat, whether it's on a sheet of paper that's handed out. That's what I was going to say, like a note, like, you know, council suggested or something like that with notes. That they get to mark up.

[01:52:03] Actually, this is a question maybe for Denise. Have there been, and Matt, have there been any unsolicited bids from any developers? No, we're very early in the process. We are fully in community planning. once this is on the website it might spur some interest um possibly you know we do have a public private project going on right now that we're looking at in the city so i think it's good that we're starting to get some ideas out there i personally would like to see like a

[01:52:39] collaboration not all city you know funded i would like to definitely see some outside development coming in with looking at what we're what we would like similar to what we tried to do in old town so i think this is a is a great would you agree denise with your background it could be looking a little more once we get ideas out there yeah with my developer hat on i i'm all over it with tom where we can do some structured parking and but but you know we all have to kind

[01:53:14] to keep in mind we we have to kind of plan for what this time frame is yeah because to to plan for today or in the next four years is different than getting big picture ideas and waiting um you know we were kind of given some direction which is why we were getting this granular so that we could understand is it do you want 400 units or do you just want 100 units do you want all attainable? Or do you want some attainable with maybe an option for, you know, a office building? That's the level of feedback we really need to kind of get. But more than

[01:53:53] anything, it's timing. As we stand here today, we can't do any residential on this site, which means we need a rezoning. Matt and I have gone over this ad nauseum with my rezoning hat on. The city of Manassas is the greatest place to work because you guys are wonderful to work with with developers and it could take a year a good rezoning a year and then there's a site plan and then there's the actual reality boots on the ground dealing with developers and deciding is there going to be some public private partnerships or is there going to be all those

[01:54:26] things three to five years without linking and but but to you know council member wolf's point we want to look at what we already have moving and see how that progresses this might end up going a little while we saw existing tenants we have folks that you know we have leases out until 2038 so the reality is is we have time to do this and do it right and not rush it so that we can get

[01:55:01] what we want in terms of what it looks like for the future okay thank you for your time Thank you. Anything else? You good? Yeah, I'm sorry. Just a comment because I don't feel comfortable with what was it stated.

[01:55:18] I mean, we are building this and then content will require from the get-go changes because of the, what was it, B1? Zone. So that's so important what we're doing because it will require all of that before we get that.

[01:55:39] But at no time, I want the public to leave with, like, we're trying to build and trying to be the investor. I feel like the comment from the council will tell me that I want to make sure that the public knows.

[01:55:55] We're not trying to build it. We're trying to make the concept so whoever is building it is attractive to these things. But when they come, we're working on it to make sure that they build what Manassas need, what we've been working on. Because we made an investment to make sure that that investment, you know, it takes us to the future.

[01:56:15] And it's not for, you know, it's not like we didn't, you know, we didn't let all the people do it. Nobody else wanted to do it. I just want to make sure that, you know, we are clear. We are not putting city's money. We're not building. We are making the change.

[01:56:30] And this requires major changes from this council. But, you know, we know we're going to have to do it. We want residential, if we want to hire, if we want whatever, whatever the things that we are doing, We are basically saying we are going to come to an agreement to do the zoning changes.

[01:56:47] And that's part of what it stops developers, too, because how long it will take and what it will take. So the message is so important, but I don't want our presidents to think that we are trying. I have no idea how to be a developer in a great respect.

[01:57:05] I fight for workers, and that's what I do, and I'm going to stay in my lane. And I do believe that we have great staff members and a great city manager who's going to take us to where we need to be. But this is no a NASA city's a developer.

[01:57:22] Yeah, thank you. No, thank you for that. Thank you. I think we're good. All hearts and minds clear. All right. And we are adjourned.

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