Coraggio Consulting
Prince William Board of County Supervisors Meeting, Tuesday, June 3, 2025

Date: Tuesday, June 3, 2025
Place: Prince William County Board of County Supervisors, Virginia
Length: 6h 42m (video)
Official meeting video (Prince William County, Granicus): https://pwcgov.granicus.com/player/clip/3651
Official Board of County Supervisors page (Prince William County): https://www.pwcva.gov/department/board-county-supervisors

Machine transcript (speech-to-text) produced by Coraggio Consulting. Not an official county record. Names and numbers may be misspelled; check the video at the timestamp before quoting.
Speech-to-text: whisper.cpp, model large-v3-turbo. Produced 2026-10-29. Timestamps are [HH:MM:SS] into the meeting video.

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[00:31:48] works every time all right everyone please have a seat colonel west actually you could sit in the front i was hoping to keep that clear for staff um but you can come down sir and have a seat in the front colonel west all right everyone today is tuesday june 3rd 2025 we are going to begin

[00:32:09] when everyone's seated or almost seated with a moment of silence thank you everyone please rise

[00:32:31] if you're able for pledge of allegiance before we get started i just had to acknowledge that there's a birthday. Now, I told them I wouldn't sing for the right price, no, but I want to

[00:33:02] acknowledge, oh, you got here, well, how much you got in there? Yeah, no, cash, I want, cash is king. So, happy birthday to Supervisor Victor Angry. No singing allowed, if he's on good behavior.

[00:33:31] So, I just want to mention to everyone on Deus, unfortunately, I am having some issues with my screen, and the poor folks in IT are doing their best to get me back up, but until then, I'm going to be relying heavily on the paper agenda, so, and if you want to raise your hands, we'll figure that out.

[00:33:48] But I want to move on to agenda item number three, and that is approval of the minutes. I move, Madam Chair. Second. I'll give it to Supervisor Vega, who graciously decorated, you know, Victor's chair. All right, any questions?

[00:34:03] If not, let's go ahead and take a vote. Supervisor Angry, yes, sir. You're also having problems. Supervisor Franklin, you are an aye. Yes, ma'am, thank you. Vote unanimous. All right, it looks like this stuff is contagious.

[00:34:21] So we are going to move on to agenda item number four. That's commendations and proclamations. Before we get started, I am going to separate out 4D. So can I get a motion for 4A through 4C? So move, Madam Chair. Second. All right, let's go ahead and vote.

[00:34:39] Are you good? I'll give you a second to say it. Yeah, just wanted to highlight 4B, National Waste and Recycling Workers Week. Obviously, we have a very robust team on our county staff. I just did Dumpster Day, where they always show up, and they do a lot of important work, a lot of dangerous work, up and down our main road.

[00:35:02] So I just wanted to thank our county staff. That's responsible for managing our landscaping and our waste. Thank you. Supervisor Franklin, are you still unable to? Are you good? Okay, thank you, ma'am. Vote unanimous.

[00:35:19] Supervisor Rear abstaining from vote. all right and then i'd like to get a motion for 4d so moved second all right any discussion all right seeing none um i actually quickly wanted to say that echo some comments i made earlier about pride month pride isn't just about who you love it's about who you are and taking pride of that and living in your authentic self so i appreciate everyone who's

[00:35:48] showing up for the proclamation today motion passes five to two supervisors vega and gordy voting nay and supervisor we're abstaining from vote all right thank you much very much we are going on to the consent agenda i am proactively going to pull off 5c for some questions but did anyone else have anything for the consent agenda they want to pull off i'm sorry yeah oh yeah

[00:36:25] i'm ready to go all right let's go so for the first proclamation um for first fam day if everyone associated with that can come forward and um supervisor bailey and chris shorter if you can join me later for the photos um supervisor bailey is what 50 year member of alpha kappa alpha she's golden all right and then chris shorter is a member of 20 oh 25 years all right so me don't

[00:36:58] for the photos for over 40 years alpha phi alpha fraternity inc um xi alpha lambda chapter and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority Omicron Chi Omega Chapter have been steadfast in their commitment

[00:37:37] to serving the residents of Prince William County, exemplifying their respective mottos. First of all, servants of all, we shall transcend all, for Alpha Phi Alpha and for Alpha Kappa Alpha's service to all mankind. These two historic organizations, affectionately referred to as the first fam have worked collaboratively and independently to address the needs of our community, including combating food insecurity through meal distributions, providing warm winter clothing for underserved populations, and awarding scholarships to local youth to aid in

[00:38:16] their pursuit of higher education. June 8th symbolizes the unity and legacy of Alpha Phi Alpha Alpha Lambda Chapter and Alpha Kappa Alpha Omega Chi Omega Chapter as they continue their joint efforts to improve the lives of Prince William County residents. Therefore, the Prince William County Board of Supervisors hereby proclaims June 8th, its first FAM 06-08 day, to honor the outstanding contributions of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity and Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Inc., recognizing there are more than 40 years of service, leadership, and advocacy in our community.

[00:38:56] Would you like to say a few words, either of you? Good afternoon, Chair Jefferson, members of the Board of County Supervisors, and distinguished guests to include my Golden Soror, Vice Chair Andrea Bailey.

[00:39:14] On behalf of the Omicron Chi Omega Chapter of Alpha, Kappa Alpha Sorority Incorporated, accent our deepest appreciation for this special recognition and for the continued partnership with our brothers of Xi Alpha Lambda Chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated.

[00:39:31] Together, as the first FAM, we are committed to serving Prince William County through impactful community initiatives ranging from educational empowerment and health advocacy to civic engagement and youth mentorship. This proclamation affirms the strength of Black Greek unity in action, and we are honored to stand in solidarity with our Alpha brothers to uplift, serve, and lead with excellence.

[00:39:54] Thank you again for this meaningful honor. On the behalf of the Brothers of Zalpha Land, the chapter of Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity Incorporated, thank you guys for this distinguished honor to us.

[00:40:10] And, yeah, we have pretty much more work to do, and we continue to do it. Thank you for all of your support. Thank you.

[00:40:37] Now, I also want to take a moment to acknowledge, because she was kind of hiding from me.

[00:41:13] I had asked her to be in the front row, but we are lucky and honored to have the mayor of Manassas City, Michelle Davis Younger, with us today. We are on to item 4B, and that is to declare the week of June 16th, National Waste and Recycling Workers Week.

[00:41:34] If anyone, y'all can come on down. Since 2014, Prince William County has joined our country's annual celebration of National Waste and Recycling Workers Day, the week of June 16th.

[00:41:54] The workers employed in the waste and recycling industry that serve our community make significant contributions to residents' health and welfare. The proper collection and handling of waste and recyclable materials are vital to a safe and clean community by preventing disease, litter, and illegal dumping.

[00:42:12] June 16th and June 17th, 2025 will also be the official recognition days at the landfill and compost facility. Therefore, the Prince William Board of County Supervisors hereby proclaims the week of June 16, 2025 as National Waste and Recycling Workers Week and proclaims June 16 and June 17, 2025 as the official recognition days of the County Landfill and Compost Facility, and we encourage everyone to participate and thank the workers in the waste and recycling industry who make a positive impact in our community.

[00:42:46] Mr. Schmuth, do you have anything you'd like to add? Yes, sure. Madam Chair, members of the board, good afternoon. Kitab Shamuchi, Director of Public Works. Joining me today, I have Monica Gorman, our Assistant Director for Public Works Solid Waste, and Renat Uri, our Recycling Manager.

[00:43:06] I would like to, on behalf of our Solid Waste Division and Public Works family, appreciate and thank you, and I'm honored to receive this proclamation on their behalf. They work very hard to provide essential services to our residents in Prince William County. With that, without any further ado, I would like to introduce Renaud Uri to say a few words from the Division of Solid Waste. Thank you. Thank you, Katab. Good morning, Madam Chair, members of the Board. Thank you for recognizing National Waste and Recycling

[00:43:40] Workers Week here in Prince William County. Solid Waste Division staff, haulers, and contractors Work year-round, rain or shine, to keep our communities clean and safe. This proclamation is very meaningful, and it's a way to honor the essential services that they provide us.

[00:44:01] And on behalf of the Solid Ways Division, I want to thank you all for your continued support and for helping us appreciate all the people that do this work. That's often unseen, but it's very essential. Thank you.

[00:44:30] Next item is 4C, and that's to proclaim June 19th as Juneteenth.

[00:44:57] Anyone associated with this, you would please come down. On June 19th, 1865 in Galvinston, Texas, more than two years after President Abraham Lincoln declared all enslaved persons free, Major General Gordon Granger and Union Army troops enforced the Emancipation Proclamation and freed the last enslaved black Americans.

[00:45:34] The following year, the first official Juneteenth celebrations took place in Texas and have continued throughout the United States, with this year commemorating the 160th anniversary of the abolishment of slavery in the United States. June 19th has a special meeting to African Americans, and it's called Juneteenth, combining the words June and 19th, and is celebrated annually in the African American community and nationally.

[00:46:01] Therefore, the Prince William Board of County Supervisors hereby proclaims June 19th, 2025, Juneteenth as a day of observance, education, and celebration to honor past struggles, highlight progress, and emphasize the historical significance of the events of 1865 for all who visit and reside in Prince William County.

[00:46:24] Maria Burgos, would you have anything you'd like to add? Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you, Chair Jefferson and members of the board. I want to thank you very much for this proclamation. It's very meaningful, especially in today. It reminds us of where we come and where we need to go.

[00:46:42] And this year's theme is about empowerment, it's about unity, and it's about love. And so we invite you all to the first Juneteenth Festival that's going to be the best in Virginia. And it's been the best. Why? Because community members have come together and participated, and one is here.

[00:46:59] Tameka, if you'll come up. Her contributions to not only this day of Juneteenth, but to the festival itself have been large. When folks ask about how did you get all that entertainment, music, and every equipment in there, it was Tamika.

[00:47:17] Because she works the community, knows the community, and it's a reason why we're here, to serve the community. So I would like to thank her and members of the team. This was brought together by the Employee Resource Group Juneteenth Committee in collaboration with our community resource group.

[00:47:33] Thank you. I just want to say thank you so much for the opportunity, being born and raised in the town of Occoquan and, you know, Prince William County for almost 50 years now, seeing dirt roads and now buildings, you know, all over the place has been definitely a change, but it's been a great change, and my ancestors are proud.

[00:48:03] So thank you for this moment. Thank you.

[00:48:16] All right.

[00:48:39] um everyone here for the lgbqia plus pride month come to the side that's most of our audience the other part of the interns we're not used to having this many people here today and i know that um mr shorter we're gonna who i was talking to hr about getting a photo with the interns i think after we do this to take a photo because we're probably going to go to atrium we can get all the interns too we can gather all them up all right lgbtqia pride plus pride month is when the

[00:49:17] community celebrates its civil rights, history, and dignity and educates the public about discrimination facing their community while encouraging others to see them as valued members of our larger community. LGBTQIA plus individuals are at higher risk of being victimized and discriminated against due to the inequitable service gaps that have been created as a result of homophobia, transphobia, societal stigma, and legalized discrimination in the past.

[00:49:47] Since the Stonewall uprising during the summer of 1969, June has been widely recognized and celebrated as Pride Month. Therefore, the Prince William County Board of Supervisors thereby affirms and proclaims the month of June 2025 as LGBTQIA plus Pride Month and encourages the community to celebrate the principles of equality, inclusion, freedom from discrimination, and justice for all who visit and reside within Prince William County.

[00:50:16] Does anyone, I don't see David Dooley, did he leave? Does anyone have anything you want to say on behalf of the organizations? No? Okay, come on down, Elvin. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Supervisors.

[00:50:33] I was here when discrimination was legal against the LGBTQ plus community. I was here when we passed for the first time the Pride Proclamation, recognizing and celebrating LGBTQ individuals. And I've been here to watch it grow, how much we protected the community, how much the community has been involved and allowed to exist freely without discrimination, even though there is still some, and the fear is here.

[00:50:52] I know that you all have our backs, and you all will do your job, and you all will support the law that protects us under the Virginia Values Act and allows us to celebrate today. Thank you so much. I want to acknowledge the Employee Resource Group, the first one to form, which is PWC Proud.

[00:51:11] And they are here today, co-chairs Mo and Roe, who made today a proud day possible. It was a full day of education, of fun, and sharing. And in Prince William County, we value all of our employees. And so the message is there that you are welcome here to work here in Prince William County and be who you are.

[00:51:29] So thank you once again, ERG Proud. So while we go to the atrium, if the interns can come out as well, and Mr. Shorter, so we can do a picture before we proceed. Thank you.

[00:51:49] All right, I'll let all the interns get settled. I'm just really impressed that we still have a pretty sizable crowd.

[00:52:14] All right. Mr. Shorter makes his way back. We are moving, for real, for real, we're moving on to the consent agenda, agenda item 905. And I'm going to actually pull 5C for questions. Does anyone have anything else they want to pull?

[00:52:31] I don't see anyone. So if I can get a motion for 5A, 5B, and 5D. So moved. Second. All right. I'm so sorry.

[00:52:46] My screen is still down. All right. Does anyone have any questions, comments? If not, let's go ahead. I can't. My screen is down. Yep, Madam Chair. Mm-hmm. Yes. Just want to point out item 5A. This is to authorize, to sell property located on Richmond Highway back to the former owners, heirs, successors, and to authorize county staff to satisfy the statutory obligations.

[00:53:14] As many of you all know, we recently completed the widening of Route 1. And in that process, we obviously worked with a lot of business owners along Route 1 to purchase some of their property to expand the road. And so this is a case where we're actually looking to sell back some of that property.

[00:53:32] So I just wanted to flag that for a Woodbridge resident. All right. Anyone else? Madam Chair. Supervisor Gordy. Thank you, Madam Chair. In relation to item 5B, the naming of the field, baseball field number six at Noakesville Park, the Townsend Field at Noakesville Park.

[00:53:52] Just want to note that this is being dedicated in memory of John Townsend, who was a lifelong Prince William County resident. He coached at the Brentsville Youth Baseball League for over 18 years. And he and his family have had a tremendous impact on the Brentsville and Noakesville community.

[00:54:10] And I'm real excited about this field currently is being expanded and turning it into a full-length tournament-sized field. And so it's going to be a great opportunity to recognize John Townsend at the same time as we are opening this field.

[00:54:27] And incidentally, it literally is behind my house. So very close to our heart as well. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right. Anyone else? If not, and also if the IT gods, if you hear me, my iPad is not working at all. So let's move forward and take a vote.

[00:54:44] I'm an aye.

[00:54:54] Vote unanimous. All right, 5C. Hold on. I'm going to move over a little bit because although it's charging, it's not, can't access it.

[00:55:15] All right. Thank you. So on to 5C, Mr. I'm sorry, Colonel West, if you can go. I have a couple questions for you about this item because I want to be clear.

[00:55:33] This is obviously for reimbursement, not enforcement, correct? Yes, ma'am. So some of the questions I had, first of all, how does Prince William County define and identify eligible inmates for reimbursement, and what verification processes are used? When inmates are incarcerated inside the jail, we forward their name and identification to the federal government through a live scan system, And then they can determine if someone, at that point, is not a U.S. citizen.

[00:56:11] What role does the private contractor, Justice Benefits, Inc. play in data collection and reporting to federal authorities? A private contractor, ma'am? Yes. Yes. Do they play any role? No, ma'am. Okay. And how long after release are immigrant detainees' information retained and potentially shared with ICE through this program?

[00:56:33] Well, we are mandated to maintain files up to three years. Sometimes I have medical files up to seven years, and that's how long that we keep them on. All right. Does anyone else have any questions? Supervisor Bailey.

[00:56:49] Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Mr. West, for coming today. I wanted to ask also, in terms of this funding, it's also utilized for staffing as well? Yes, ma'am. Could you explain that, please? Sure. The Department of Justice gives each state inside the country some funds to offset the cost of housing of the fenders.

[00:57:13] This is for salaries, for benefits, for maintenance. This includes all staff. It could be a therapist, a medical staff also. So it's really designed that when each state gets the money, each locality can apply for the funding.

[00:57:31] And this kind of offsets some of the overhead that each jail has. For current staff, not new staff? Current staff, yes. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right. I think for my one-eighth on this, you know, we should kind of, you know, work with your department on monitoring, you know, how we receive these funds.

[00:57:53] I just don't want to do anything that is going to incentivize increased, you know, detentions. We're living in a very charged climate right now, and I just want to make sure that we do not do anything that would find my words carefully.

[00:58:15] I just want to be careful that we're not encouraging detention practices in our jails. That's more of a comment more than a question, unless you have something you want to add on to that. Well, no, I don't want to keep anybody in jail that I don't want to be there or that I can't legally keep. So, yeah, so the people that's incarcerated are even detained unlawfully, and when it's time for them to go home, then we release them.

[00:58:43] So I don't want to collect any money that's going to keep somebody there because I want people to go home. I certainly appreciate that. I have, I'm sorry, my screen's gone. I have Supervisor Franklin, the name green. Yeah, thank you for that. Just more of a comment. I'm likely to abstain on this just because I think I have more questions than what we have time for today.

[00:59:04] And just so you know, and to the county exec, I plan to submit a number of questions just for you guys to be responsive to. And so just wanted to kind of put that on the record. Supervisor Angry. Yeah, thank you, Madam Chair. And hey, Colonel West, good to see you.

[00:59:20] I think the, first of all, I love grants because grants are, you know, extra funding that we get to help assist us with programs throughout the county. I think the fear here is just the unintended consequences that we want to just make sure aren't consequences, right? So there's going to be always just monitoring to make sure, you know, bad things aren't happening to good people, if you will.

[00:59:41] And I will just say because I've gotten some questions and comments from, you know, from the Latino community or CASA and just some concerns they were sharing. So I think there's just that issue of making sure that we don't have any unintended consequences as how we're moving forward with the funds to provide for this.

[01:00:01] So I just want to put that out there. Like I said, this is not for one community. It's for all non-citizens that come into the jail. And is this something that we've been collecting these funds for 20-plus years, and it just offsets some of the overhead that the jail has fiscally?

[01:00:20] Supervisor Vega. Thank you, Madam Chair. Colonel West, I think you pretty much just answered the question I was going to ask. Can you please repeat how long we've been receiving this grant for? 20-plus years. 20-plus years. There's so much that I could say, but I'm going to refrain. I just want to make sure that the public that is here and for those that are watching at home, this is nothing new.

[01:00:39] This is what this agency has been doing for 20-plus years, and I want to thank you for doing your job as a law enforcement officer. And just to be clear, Madam Chair, I don't want to leave the dais or this meeting, you know, with questions. You did say that you wanted to make sure that this grant was not for enforcement, yes?

[01:00:58] I want to make sure that it was more of a reimbursement rather than us using our police or our jail personnel as ICE or federal. Well, we know that's not the case. I just want to be very clear. You're a law enforcement officer and your job is to enforce the law.

[01:01:15] And I don't want to send that message to the community that this board as a governing body that prides itself in ensuring community safety is sending the wrong message. So, Colonel West, thank you for being here. Thank you for clarifying that this grant has been in place for 20-plus years.

[01:01:31] And, Supervisor Bailey, the questions that you ask are spot on. They support operation. They defray cost. Again, it's a supplemental support for your budget. And most importantly, it's in compliance with policy and with the law. Thank you. Supervisor Cordy. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[01:01:48] And I also want to clarify one thing. No one from the ADC is patrolling the streets, collecting people, and bringing them to the jail, correct? no sir all right so there's no incentive in the part of this on the part of your employees to go out and find people to bring in to get money these are people who who are arrested for committing or being accused of a crime and brought to you um and you're you you are the receiving you're the not the one outgoing and doing the collecting that's correct and the guideline states that um someone

[01:02:23] is convicted of a felony or someone's convicted of two misdemeanors or more that spend four days are more with us that's how we get reimbursed okay so it's under a conviction yes not just an arrest yes okay so the person has to have gone to trial to have to have been found guilty convicted of the crime and stay with you for four days yes sir all right thank you supervisor bailey thank you madam chair um colonel west the other thing that i i wanted to ask also when we had our meeting

[01:02:56] these funds are for the current year or the future year or what what are these funds for so my understanding that we report in may of every year to the state and the um it's the past year the past fiscal year so it's the past fiscal budget fiscal year okay i just wanted to make sure that that was so we reimbursed from the last fiscal year of people that we took care of incarcerated okay thank you manager supervisor franklin yeah sure and i'm not going to turn this into an immigration debate, but let me just say that it doesn't matter if we've been doing

[01:03:32] this for 20 years. The point of the matter is some of us don't trust the current administration. That's what this is about. It has nothing to do with what we think our jail staff should be doing or our police. We have, or let me just speak for myself, I have issues with the way the current administration is currently handling the immigration discussion. That's where some of these discussions are coming from. So I just want to be clear on that. It doesn't matter that we've been doing this for 20 years. There's a trust issue currently taking place with this administration.

[01:04:02] Thank you. All right, Vega, Supervisor Vega. And again, we can go back and forth. Many of us haven't trusted the previous administration, but I just want to make sure that we're not politicizing this issue or our role on this dais. Again, you're a law enforcement officer and your job and the oath that you've taken is to enforce the law. And I want to be very clear, folks, people are not getting picked up randomly on the streets and thrown into the adult detention center that is not happening here in prince william county and if we want to and we should have a broader discussion on this we can bring chief newsham here to discuss the issue with the board to make sure that the public is reassured that what you're seeing on national headlines it's not happening in this county where we govern and where we have the authority to ensure that

[01:04:42] we're following the law and the policy that has been forth by our police department and by the general ordinance of this county so madam chair i don't i i hate that we're doing this to colonel west because this has been approved time and time again i understand that it's an election year and that perhaps this is a hot button topic but we got to be very careful with the message that we're sending and when we ask folks like colonel west to come before this board to answer questions that quite frankly he shouldn't be answering because we already know this it's common practice it's not the first time that we approve this so i appreciate your passion supervisor vega and i definitely

[01:05:14] appreciate you sir for coming out and i appreciate all that our law enforcement does but again i'm not looking at elections. I'm looking at principles. And I've worked in immigration justice. I am deeply concerned. I know that our law enforcement here in Prince William County is doing the best that they can. And I appreciate that we have a very diverse community. And I want people to feel safe and secure here. The headlines do frighten me. I'm a natural born citizen. I'm a descendant of enslaved Africans. However, when I look at the TV, when I see what's going on, I get scared. I get

[01:05:52] worried so i have questions and i want to make sure that they're answered and i'm sure that the public appreciates that as well so i would definitely love to have a conversation with you because i do have more questions i am mindful of time because we have to keep this board meeting thank you for coming out and for answering the questions i don't know a number of us have already spoken our two terms so we can go ahead and take a vote thank you motion to approve all right so

[01:06:26] we have Gordy and Bailey so my screen is still motion passes five to one supervisor got to go back and to the IT gods my screen is frozen yet again supervisor Bailey voting nay

[01:06:59] supervisors Franklin and Jefferson chair Jefferson abstaining from vote thank you so very much can IT gods help me out we are going to agenda item number six and that is public hearings for um budget amendments so i need my y'all can get my sheets do we have anyone signed up

[01:07:26] for in person or online all right we ain't got nothing all right so um for 6a to 6a the public hearing um 6a through 6d the public hearing is now closed it was open it's now closed um before we move forward let's see 6a i can take everything in the motion i'd like to get a motion for 6A to 6D.

[01:07:52] So moved. So I second. All right. Does anyone have any items of discussion or questions? And again, I apologize. My screen is frozen. Madam Chair, if I may. Supervisor Bailey. Thank you, Patrick Potomac at Eagles Point.

[01:08:14] And I just wanted to thank the Transportation Department for the excellent work that they're doing to make sure that this is executed as it relates to the proffers that were given and for this project. It's been a long time coming, and so I really appreciate the initiative that they've done on this.

[01:08:35] All right. Supervisor Gordy. Madam Chair, thank you. Item 6A is the execution of a standard project agreement between the county and Northern Virginia Transportation Authority to design and construct the Sudley Manor Drive Interchange Project. I really appreciate all the work that our transportation team has put in to get us to this point.

[01:08:55] This is an area of significant congestion on Prince William Parkway, And looking forward to this project being funded. However, I do have concerns that some of the designs that have been proposed already will undermine our economic development efforts on the north end of Innovation Town Center along Wellington Road.

[01:09:19] And so I just want to highlight that as something that while we're trying to solve one problem, we're actually going to be killing businesses before they even become businesses. People have already made significant millions of dollars of investments due to some of the designs.

[01:09:38] Those projects may not go forward. So this is an area where we definitely need to continue to work to find the right solution for our economic development as well as our mobility plan. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, thank you so very much.

[01:09:58] I apologize if my screen is still frozen, but if we go ahead and take a vote, I will vote aye. Oh, wait, I think I'm back. Vote unanimous. Okay, I love technology.

[01:10:25] All right, we are now open for public comment time. So what I do is I call people up in groups of five. We only have a couple speakers, I guess for in-person time. When you speak, you're going to go to the back, state your name. You have five minutes to state your name in your magisterial district or where you generally reside. You don't have to give me your exact address unless you want me to show up for lunch or dinner. I love food. More about that later. First, I'm going to have Kabidi Schneider

[01:10:56] and then Marty Noe, who is a former supervisor for the Colts district. Greetings, Chair Jefferson, Prince William County Board of Supervisors. I appreciate you all for allowing me to speak today with God and all the hierarchies as witnesses here today.

[01:11:22] My name is Keeby, and I live in Cat Harpin. In 2022, I spoke at a Prince William County Planning Commission about the need to stand up for women's civil rights. This was in reference to compromised women's identities on the Internet.

[01:11:41] Data is filling up our data centers at an alarming rate. We do not know how much non-compliant material occupies our data space here in Prince William County, And we, the people, would like to request an assessment. Our electrical grid is at capacity.

[01:12:00] 60 data centers tripped offline just last year, I believe in Loudoun. I happened to be speaking a couple days before that regarding the emergency generators taking over. I was slightly laughed at by somebody regarding the fact that a few of us had spoken out regarding that matter and that the generators were not supposed to go online.

[01:12:28] A few days later, 60 data centers offline, running on emergency generators, surges through the grid. Dulles is in that area. D.C. is in this area. Our grid has been redlining for the last five years.

[01:12:45] Pornography has played a large role not only in that, but also in mental decline of society. The Take It Down Act was introduced January 16th. On May 19th of this year, the Take It Down Act was signed into law. The Take It Down Act specifically prohibits non-consensual explicit data to exist on the internet.

[01:13:08] We here in Prince William County have the ability to set a new standard. While search engines remove the data from the search archives, we must demand the illegal data to be erased from the data center storage system. You have a tremendous opportunity right here, right now, to take a stand for women's civil rights, and now you have the law on your side to do so.

[01:13:33] Prince William can be your knight in shining armor today. Please accept the new national standards of the Take It Down Act. Sorry, please apply the new national standards of the Take It Down Act to our data centers here in Prince William County as soon as possible.

[01:13:50] Show the world the bright light that Prince William County truly is in this world and set an example for the entire United States of America. I've always wanted to say happy birthday to angry. I've gotten quite angry over the subject of the past decade.

[01:14:09] So it's nice to be able to deliver these words today. Thank you very much, and God bless you all. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Jefferson, members of the board.

[01:14:28] We can't hear you very well. Is this a little better? No one ever tells me they can't hear me. That's so weird. Chair Jefferson, members of the board, my name is Marty Noe. I live at 14760 Kogan Drive in the Coles Magisterial District.

[01:14:45] And I didn't know I was coming here today. I would have worn a nicer shirt. But I'll share with you that I've been someone that I think pretty much all of us, at least all of you in the day, maybe all in this room, considered a friend. Jerry Connolly passed away last week. And I think some of us have gone to social media to share our thoughts about it.

[01:15:02] But I've been carrying his passing heavily on my heart. And I want to share with you all a story as members of the board about Jerry Connolly that some of you have heard before, but I think is worthy of any public official hearing from time to time. It was the 40th anniversary of the Northern Virginia Regional Commission. Jerry was the chair of that commission.

[01:15:17] I was the board secretary, and we were at a fancy dinner, and there was a slideshow running on screens like these with pictures of various ribbon cuttings and groundbreaking ceremonies and new train stations sliding on the screen. And about every sixth or seventh picture, Jerry and I might recognize some retired elected official. But the vast majority of the people in those pictures were not people we knew. The pictures were just too old for us to be able to remember who those people were. But we recognized that they were standing in front of such and such metro station or in front of a particular school. We saw the places and the events they were at, which didn't always know who the people were. Initially, it was a little embarrassing for us that we didn't know these

[01:15:56] people were. And I looked to Jerry and I said, I feel like the fact that we don't recognize these people is a lesson to us. I just don't know what the lesson is. And he agreed. And later that day, as we were leaving, actually, Jerry came to me and he said, he said, Marty, I think I know what the lesson is. The lesson is that when you serve in public office, the things people don't, when you serve in public office, eventually you go away. When you go away, people don't necessarily remember you, but they do remember the things that you've done. And that's what matters. And I've been carrying that around a lot in my heart and that story. And then this morning I was looking

[01:16:33] at your board agenda. And when I look at things that you have on your board agenda today, there were things I cared about 10, 15 years ago, like the Manassas Mall redevelopment or the Sudley Manor Interchange or the Affordable Dwelling Ordinance or Juneteenth or Pride Month. I realized that those are the things that people will remember. The things that are on your agenda, especially some of the things specifically on today's agenda, these are the things that will remember about you. So with that, I would just ask that as you go through today's agenda and every agenda for the rest of this term and the rest of your careers, remember those words of Jerry Connolly. People won't remember you, but they'll remember the things you did. So do the

[01:17:09] things that you'll want people to remember and know in your heart why you want them to remember of them. And that's all I ask of you today. I'll throw one last sentence. I've got 24 seconds. As the chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, I'd like to invite all of you to come to our annual meeting. It's at the Farm Brewery at Broad Run this Thursday afternoon at four o'clock.

[01:17:27] And we'd love to see our entire board of supervisors there at that event. But again, keep the words of Jerry Connolly in your mind and heart as you go through these important decisions you have today. Thanks so much. Thank you so much. Supervisor Bailey, do we have anyone online we do not have anyone online so all right thank you very much we are now going to move on to the public hearings under agenda item number eight and that includes the consolidated land use public hearings most everyone here is for eight queue but i'm going to go ahead and open the public hearings madam chair yes i apologize to interrupt you but uh supervisor angry and i have

[01:18:07] or usual spleel, if you don't mind. I'm actually going to say, Angry, you go first. Yeah, go for it. Amy for B. Madam Chair, before the board, the citizen votes on item 8C, which is an ordinance to permanently adopt photo monitoring systems to enforce speed limits and school crossing zones.

[01:18:25] I need to declare a personal interest in this matter. My wife is a special education instructional aide with the schools. As a school's employee, my wife and I are members of a group which is affected by this matter. I will be participating in this matter because I am able to do so fairly, objectively, and in the public interest.

[01:18:42] Thank you, Madam Chair. Copy-paste what he said. No, just kidding. Madam Chair, before the board considers and votes on item 8C, which is an ordinance to permanently adopt photo monitoring systems to enforce speed limits in school crossing zones, I need to declare a personal interest in this matter.

[01:18:57] My wife is a school's employee. As a school's employee, my wife and I are members of a group which is affected by these matters. I will be participating in these matters because I am able to do so fairly objectively in the public interest. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right. Thank you guys very much.

[01:19:13] So what I'm going to do is I'm going to open the public hearings for everything at once. That is 8A through 8Q. And then we're going to vote on them separately. So I'm opening the public hearings for 8A through 8Q.

[01:19:28] We do not have anyone who signed up for 8A, 8B through 8G, 8H through 8P. We have a number for people for 8Q. and I will take all the remote afterwards. So for 8Q, I have Reverend Dr. Keith Savage, Reverend Mandy North, Reverend Bessie L. Jett, Annabelle Cobar, and Evelyn Ureta.

[01:19:56] If you can make your way to the back, and I know a lot of you are on behalf of voice. One person for voice can speak for five minutes. Everyone else has to do to three minutes. And it's the same drill. Say your name and where you generally reside.

[01:20:13] So, good afternoon, Madam Chair, Board of County Supervisors, County Executive Shorter. I'm Reverend Dr. Keith Savage. I'm a local pastor here in Prince William County. I'm also a voice leader. I'm not speaking on behalf of Voice. Reverend Mandy North will do that. And I'm also here with all the voice representatives who are here who represent thousands here in Prince William County.

[01:20:34] One of the things we're here to talk about is home or an apartment in Prince William County shouldn't be out of reach. As leaders of voice, we hear the same story from every corner of Prince William County. People are being priced out of living in their own communities. Since our founding in 2008, we've held listening sessions with thousands of residents, teachers, health aides, seniors, young parents.

[01:20:57] No matter their background, the same concern always rises to the top. The cost of housing is breaking people's lives apart. Today, this board has a crucial opportunity to address this crisis by passing the proposed Affordable Housing Dwelling Ordinance. Doing so will finally allow this county's Affordable Housing Trust Fund, which currently sits at $15 million unused ready to go, to start building and preserving real people, homes that real people can afford.

[01:21:23] This ordinance works with the private sector to ensure that affordable housing is included in market rate homeownership and rental housing developments. But this crisis isn't accidental. It's a result of years of falling behind in housing construction. As demand has soared and supply hasn't kept pace, shelter, which is a basic need, has become a luxury in this county.

[01:21:44] Today, nearly half the renters in the county are cost-burdened, spending more than 30% of their income on rent. Families live one paycheck from eviction, and teachers commute from far-off counties. Every week in our churches, including mine, we help residents on the brink of homelessness, not because of their irresponsibility, but because they're being crushed by rent.

[01:22:04] This isn't just a housing problem. Rising child poverty, school instability, worker shortages are all tied to housing. And when people or central workers can't afford to live here, our entire county suffers. We need bold action.

[01:22:20] The ordinance gives the county one vital tool grounded in a three-part strategy. Supply, stability, and subsidy. This proposed ordinance has been debated and refined, and delay is no longer an option.

[01:22:36] Every month we wait is another month our neighbors are falling through the cracks. So we have urged this board to vote yes. Let the Housing Trust Fund do its job. Let's stop treating housing like a problem and start using it as a solution because it is.

[01:22:52] And Marty Noe said something that was very important. The late, great Maya Angelou said, people will forget what you did. They will forget what you said, but they will never forget how you made them feel. Thank you. Next speaker, please. Chair Jefferson and the Board of County Supervisors, I am Reverend Mandy North and the pastor of the Manassas Church of the Brethren, co-chair of VOICE, which is Virginians Organized for Interfaith and Community Engagement and a resident of Coles District. If you are here from VOICE, can you

[01:23:29] please stand so we can see who's here? Thank you. You can be seated. So I'm speaking on behalf of the organization. For the nearly 17 years that VOICE has been operating here in Northern Virginia and throughout the state, we have heard time and time again from thousands of residents about not being able to afford to live here anymore.

[01:23:59] Teachers, seniors, health workers, parents, and other public servants. And the message is always the same. We cannot afford to live here anymore. Many are spending over 30% of their income just to keep a roof over their heads.

[01:24:15] And every week, voice leaders hear stories of families facing eviction, workers commuting long hours, elders being forced to leave their lifelong neighborhoods, and young adults who grew up here, were educated here, and can't even afford to live and work here as adults.

[01:24:32] Not because they have failed, but because the housing market has failed them. And this is not just a temporary problem. It's been ongoing, and it's just tearing apart the fabric of our communities. The Affordable Dwelling Unit Ordinance that we have before us today is just a single tool that every other Northern Virginia county already uses and already has in place and one that Prince William County has lacked for too long. And with this ordinance, we can finally begin to use the county's $15 million affordable housing trust fund, which has just been sitting idle to build

[01:25:08] and preserve real housing that people can actually afford. And again, this ordinance is just one tool, and it's part of a larger strategy that Voice has long championed. For supply, we need to build more homes. For stability, to keep families in the homes they already have. And for subsidy, to help low and moderate income residents afford to stay where they work in Prince William County. So this vote today before us is just the beginning, and we know that it's not perfect,

[01:25:46] and we know that there's still work to do but it's a beginning that we need and so we as voice support the passing of this afdu ordinance and we pray that you will vote yes and voice will continue to organize and to listen and to push because everyone deserves a place to call home in the community where they work and live thank you thank you next speaker please good afternoon Madam Chairperson and the members of the Board of Supervisors. My name is Bessie L. Jett,

[01:26:23] Reverend, and I'm a member of the First Baptist Church, Manassas, and a member of Voice. I stand to give my testimony. I'm a senior citizen. I'll be 77 in July. I currently live in an apartment, an older apartment development. My rent is about $1,700 a month, and I make a little bit over $4,000 each month. I stand in agreement for affordable housing. I was living in an apartment dwelling and the rent went from what it was up to $300 more. I anticipate that my rent when this lease

[01:27:01] runs out would be almost $1,800 a month. I would definitely agree, support, and perhaps take advantage of affordable housing in my neighborhood. God bless you all. Next speaker, please.

[01:27:17] Buenas tardes, miembros de la Junta de Supervisores. Mi nombre es Annabel Cobar. Desde hace cinco años vivo con mi familia en el distrito de Woodbridge. Por los últimos tres años he estado participando en las audiencias públicas sobre el presupuesto abogando para que ustedes inviertan en programas y viviendas para las familias trabajadoras de bajo recursos.

[01:27:49] Hoy estoy presente en apoyo de la ordenanza de vivienda. Estoy informada que la ordenanza es necesaria para que el condado pueda poner a funcionar los fondos dedicados para la creación de vivienda de bajo costo.

[01:28:06] Entiendo que esto solo es un proceso y que como líderes de este condado tiene mucho más por hacer para asegurar que no solo creamos más viviendas, pero que en realidad esta vivienda pueda ser para nuestras familias que ganamos menos de $50,000 por año. Gracias.

[01:28:28] Good afternoon. My name is Evelyn. I will do the interpretation for her. Good afternoon, members of the Board of Supervisors. My name is Annabel Cobar. I have been living with my family in the Woodbridge District for five years now.

[01:28:44] For the past three years, I have been participating in public hearings on the budget, advocating for more investment on programs and for housing for low-income working families. I am here today in support of the housing ordinance. I am informed that the ordinance is necessary so that county can put the funds allocated thus far to use for the creation of affordable housing.

[01:29:11] I understand that this is only a process and that as a leader of this county, there is much more to do and ensure that we do not create more housing, but that the housing we create, we actually provide to families earning less than $50,000 per year.

[01:29:32] Thank you for listening. All right, before you speak, because I know you signed up, I want to call the next group of speakers, and I ask that people please wait in their seats until I call them up, just because we, I mean, I know a couple of you are next on the list, but I ask that people please remain in their seats until I call them up.

[01:29:51] So, Jennifer Osborne, Dr. George Farmer, Sheila Miller, and then Jill Norcross. Those are the next group of speakers. So, Evelyn, you may continue. Okay. Good afternoon again, boards and shared women.

[01:30:10] My name is Evelyn Urrutia. I am the Executive Director of Tenants and Workers United and a longtime resident of Prince William County. Tenants and Workers United is a community organization that we work directly with the community of color, immigrants, women, youth, and low-wages workers.

[01:30:29] Because of the work I do and my 24 years living in the Niasco district, I am well aware of the resources needed in our community, especially when we talk about housing and deeply affordable housing. I am here in support of the Affordable Dueling Unit Ordinance.

[01:30:48] Passing the ordinance will allow the county to make such a neat investment with the Office of Housing and Community Development, and it will oversee the administration of the Affordable Housing Trust Fund, to which the board allocates $5.5 million in the fiscal year 2005-2006 and plans to continue to add $5 million each year through the fiscal year 2030.

[01:31:16] Prince William County is the only county in Northern Virginia who doesn't have an Affordable Dueling Unit Ordinance. This best practice policy allows affordable units to be included in market rate for sale and rental development.

[01:31:31] And an affordable housing trust fund is another best practice tool that allows the county to invest in the production and preservation of affordable units to help ensure housing affordability for all.

[01:31:47] We hope as the county continues to develop their housing policy and programs, you recognize that the housing cost burden faced by those earning 50% of the median income and below, and use your resources wisely to ensure deeply affordability for the residents who need housing assistance the most.

[01:32:10] Let's continue making progress for all families in Prince William County, and thank you for listening and for considerating. Thank you. Good afternoon, County Board of Supervisors.

[01:32:32] This is my first time appearing at a hearing. I've lived in Prince William County for 10 years. I am a just recently retired federal employee after 38 years. And so what has come to my attention?

[01:32:47] I'm sorry, I need your name. My name is Sheila Miller. I am a homeowner and heavily burdened taxpayer in Prince William County, Virginia, in the Woodbridge area. I received a notice, so I'm coming from the heart.

[01:33:04] And right now, I received a notice, a public hearing notice, about a special use permit to allow a family day home for up to nine children at a townhome, which is three doors down from me, located at 14-955 Whittier Loop.

[01:33:24] And I'm here to say, please deny that special use permit. I have already recently, I'm burdened with heavy property taxes. I'm on a fixed income now, no longer that big, beautiful federal income that I used to get. The property taxes have gone up.

[01:33:43] My insurance, my homeowner's insurance has tripled. And so being a retiree now, 63, you don't get the, maybe you all can also pass something to get to reduce property taxes for those under 65 in this county.

[01:34:00] But on the subject of the special use permit, I am requesting that you deny a special use permit number, SUP 2025-00018, Sunny Days Daycare. It will reduce the value of our property in Wexford, the Wexford community.

[01:34:22] It will also bring in probably, right now, I have had my privacy fence vandalized. I've taken it to the, because of the children playing back there, I've taken that issue to my homeowners association.

[01:34:38] They're saying it's not anything we can do about it right now. Call the police. Police arrived three hours late. But it's a matter of safety, not having any more children into the neighborhood. When people, we can't have people or parents dropping off children in a squeezed out little small townhome community that already has too much traffic in there already.

[01:35:06] Seniors need to get their rest. We need to be able to have a peaceful, quiet community. And this daycare center would actually uproot that. And so right now I've had a fence vandalized, a privacy fence vandalized with the children playing in the back.

[01:35:24] I was told by the HOA to go to my homeowner's insurance, which is State Farm, and they're not paying it, you know. And so these are the things that some of us homeowners are running into. In order to keep my home and keep the property values up, please do not allow or deny this special use permit because that area is not an area for a daycare center.

[01:35:51] Thank you very much. All right, thank you. Have a good day. And I apologize. So we have sign-up sheets. You were for 8K, and you were on gate queue. So thank you very much. All right, next speaker I have left. I have Jennifer Osborne, Reverend Dr. George Farmer, and Jill Norcross.

[01:36:08] Ms. Osborne? I'm also with my HOA board, so do I get five minutes? Is that a yes? Can you hear me?

[01:36:26] I'm with my HOA board, so do I get that five minutes? Okay, great. Thank you. So, first of all, hi, everybody. I want to say I am in favor of better housing laws and ordinances and ADUs. My job here is to say we have some concerns on this ordinance.

[01:36:43] It has too many loopholes currently. The intent will be lost in the loopholes that will cause significant harm. Don't be set on passing a resolution that's flawed. And I'm going to go through some of those flaws with you.

[01:36:58] You will end up with unintended consequences, which I heard is something that we've tried to avoid on this board. The ordinance is not going to be used by intent. It's going to be used by the actual wording of it. And the wording of it strips each one of you supervisors of your power to legislate.

[01:37:15] It strips your power to determine how these communities are going to look and its density because they bypass you. Yes, we need affordable housing. Yes, we need homes. But sometimes the answer is also time. We've been approving a lot of homes.

[01:37:31] Thank you guys for all of that. But construction takes time. It's a multi-year cycle. After with time, you're also able to collect data. None of this data on how many homes we have, how many homes we have to build, how many ADUs have been sold, how many ADUs are in the market, everything, none of that data is available to the public.

[01:37:51] So when you don't have that data and you try to push past something so sweeping as this guideline, it makes us question the intent of why we're doing it without the data to support it. This is a seismic change in the policy, and it has too many loopholes in it.

[01:38:08] I've been asking since September for this data. It does not exist, so either it's being withheld or you guys are being manipulated that there's a bigger crisis than what there actually is. There is a shortage, 100%. So the ordinance lacks key critical provisions, and it requires immediate amendments, and those amendments will not carry the same weight of this ordinance.

[01:38:31] So don't pass something that isn't ready. I'm not saying no. I'm saying just defer to get the wording right so you do not have unintended consequences that you aren't able to fix. If this law doesn't meet the goals of it, you have no ability to fix it.

[01:38:48] It's an ordinance. It's one of the most dangerous pieces of legislation I have seen. And again, I am for ADUs. The burden of the automatic waivers and the staff has to prove specific harm, that's an impossible burden.

[01:39:03] The burden should be on the developer to prove there is no harm, not this other way around. This will enrich developers. I have personal experience with this. Thomas Farm was projected to bring over 700 cars through the middle of my neighborhood.

[01:39:18] It took public pressure and you guys helping to stop it. And I do appreciate that, by the way. With this ordinance, you would have no say in that density. My neighborhood would have been destroyed. This ordinance takes you out of the equation.

[01:39:35] Manassas Mall, mixed-use parcel. Those unproffered land bays have already up to 5,000 housing units. This ordinance will allow them to go up to 9,700 units, and you will never come before you. It is up to the zoning administrator only.

[01:39:53] So you have to fix the ordinance to close the loopholes. I don't know how to make that clear. The most important thing is there is no sunset clause that requires a review of how the ordinance is working. There's no compliance mechanism.

[01:40:10] And once it's passed, you are giving permanent right of power to the developers. And you are creating rights for landowners and developers that you cannot undo. This is truly the most important piece of legislation you will review in your time right now.

[01:40:27] And it has too many loopholes that it's going to hurt the cause of helping housing when you overgive developers. They will not play well in the sandbox. They do not care about intent. They don't care about their finances. We need help, but this is not the ordinance to die on.

[01:40:46] Fix it. You know it needs flaws. If I'm even, you can say Jenny's not right, but if I'm slightly right, you won't have the power to fix it. You have to stop and fix an ordinance and close those loopholes. I have sent you numerous emails of even the wording suggestion.

[01:41:03] I ran it through the Virginia state legislation. it can be fixed. All the suggestions are legal. Other counties have these, but they don't remove the power of the supervisors like this ordinance does. You have to fix this. You also have to do, you can do the housing trust fund without this ordinance. You can work things around to meet the needs. You're not going to have the power to fix it until you fix the wording of this.

[01:41:32] It's the words that matter in this ordinance, not the intent. Please understand that. That's it. Thank you so very much. No clapping. All right. And we're going to bring the microphone to Reverend Dr. George Farmer. Thank you, Board of Supervisors and Chair.

[01:41:57] The comments I make are on behalf of my congregation in Haymarket and on behalf of my family, my daughter, and my grandchildren, who are residents here in Prince William County.

[01:42:16] And I really want to ask you to be human now. We've just heard a very well-stated legal presentation. I'm asking you if you will look inside your hearts and ask yourself, do you want to chase the future away from this county?

[01:42:39] Because without affordable housing, the young people, highly capable people, are the ones who will lose and they cannot afford to lose. They will leave. I know as I look at the members of my church, we have lost the major portion of our youth because they cannot afford to live in this county and they have moved out. I look at my own grandchildren and I see them

[01:43:10] struggling. I'm about to do some things that grandparents do in trying to, shall we say, supplement the efforts that my young children are making. But that should not be necessary when folk are making $60,000, $70,000, $80,000 a year. They should not be scrambling to find housing.

[01:43:35] And I make this statement to you because legality is notwithstanding. We have plenty of land in this county. We have plenty of resources in this county to allow us to build housing that our up-and-coming citizens can afford. And I strongly recommend that you look at that prospect rather than the legalities. I know you are the, shall we say, the custodians of the legal issues. However,

[01:44:09] every single one of you has a heart and is human, and you know what you would do if you were concerned about taking care of your own family. So please consider our citizens to be your family. thank you thank you so very much and when we return the microphone we'll have jill norcross good afternoon board of supervisors thank you for the opportunity to speak today my name is

[01:44:45] jill norcross and i'm the executive director of the northern virginia affordable housing alliance i'm back again to share my support of the affordable dwelling unit ordinance and and ask for your vote to support it you have been working on this issue i know for almost four years now You've had studies. You've had a lot of conversation. I've met with many of you individually to discuss it.

[01:45:08] You know there is a housing crisis here in Prince William, and I think the other advocates did a fantastic job from Voice and Tenants and Worker explaining the need that we have here in the community. We understand that this version of an Affordable Dwelling Unit Ordinance may not be perfect.

[01:45:25] It is a voluntary ordinance that you are allowed to enforce due to the state legislation. But I disagree with the earlier speaker that there is not opportunity for change. I think you have a clear path before you to work with your state delegation in the General Assembly to get the section of the state code to allow you to have a mandatory ordinance and allow you to develop the ordinance that you want and you believe will represent the interests of Prince William County as a whole.

[01:45:58] I know you've tried that this last couple of years and it didn't go through. Your peer jurisdictions, the City of Falls Church, was able to get that mandatory section of the Ordinance 2304 passed this year. Through the General Assembly, the City of Charlottesville was able to get that section of the ordinance passed previously a few years ago.

[01:46:19] So there is opportunity for change. There's opportunity to improve the language of the ordinance and, again, to make it what your community needs. But not voting on this version of the ordinance before you just kicks the can further down the road and prevents you all from requiring that the market rate developers include affordable units in both their rental and for sale developments in communities.

[01:46:45] So I really ask that you can consider making progress, allowing the housing trust fund to be unlocked and to be used, which is really where we will see additional supply being created in your county. I know you have worked so hard on this issue, and you all come with different perspectives, but after four years of studying it, now's the time to vote on the ordinance in front of you and continue the work ahead to get the mandatory section of the code so you can make it what your community needs.

[01:47:15] So I appreciate the time in speaking with you today, and thank you. Now, thank you to everyone who came out. Supervisor Bailey, do we have anyone online? All right, we do not have anyone online, so I am going to go ahead and close the public hearings for 8A through 8Q.

[01:47:33] And we are not going to vote on them. It's a whole large slate. I'm going to pull it out to make things a little easier for us. So we're going to start with 8A, and then we're going to do separately 8B through 8G, and then separately 8H through 8Q, and then finally, I'm sorry, 8H through 8P, and then 8Q separately.

[01:47:52] So that's going to be one, two, three, four separate votes. So moving on with 8A first, I'd like to get a motion and a second. So move, Madam Chair. Second. 8A. We're just doing 8A right now. Does anyone have any comments or discussion for 8A? I'm looking around because my computer is on holiday today.

[01:48:10] so we don't looks like we don't have anyone for 8a so i would like to go ahead and vote on 8a vote unanimous we are now moving to our second round of votes and that is 8b through 8g can i get a motion madam chair could you divide out eight d as in dog i can all right we can i will put that separately so that will be 8b 8c 8e 8f and 8g can i get a motion for those so move madam

[01:48:48] second all right any discussion chair um supervisor bode thank you madam chair uh just quickly for 8b the comprehensive traffic safety action plan um wanted to just for folks who were joining us some of us for the first time um take you to about four years ago when sewers are angry and several of us on this dais started really leaning into talking about traffic safety um i asked for a traffic safety work session, which we then had in 2022. That led to a lot of conversations, and I know that a lot of folks on this board have taken and continue to take

[01:49:26] traffic safety very seriously. It's heartbreaking to know just how many accidents, injuries, fatalities, what have you we've had in these intervening years, but this plan is another important step to addressing those concerns. Just as we know there isn't a silver bullet to fixing our public safety, housing or transportation challenges, we're going to need a systems-based approach and a full set of tools to address traffic safety. This traffic safety plan isn't just about improving roadways, adding speed bumps and speed tables and what have you. It's about looking at the community bottom up and realizing that people are just as much a part of the

[01:50:03] solution and the challenges of doing this. We know that a lot of these tragic accidents happen because people aren't driving the way they should. They're being aggressive. They're not paying attention. The list goes on. So I really look forward to not only the recommendations of this that have already come through on improvements to roadways, those are important, but also how we're going to implement this in talking to have real conversations with the community because unless we get community buy-in, we get people to realize they are just as much a part of the solution as government is, we will only be so effective.

[01:50:37] So I wanted to take this opportunity to address that. I want to thank Rich Weinman. I see him in the audience, the entire traffic safety team, Rick Kennizolson, his entire group, Sean Peake, and all the people at PD. There's a lot of people and county staff that have been working on this for years, even before we got the Safe Roads for All grants, and I wanted to highlight that work and that when we're able to implement this fully, we will save lives in this county, and that is no small feat.

[01:51:05] So I wanted to highlight that. And just quickly, 8E for folks in my district, on the six-year plan, we have ASD Lane, which is a new addition, Occoquan Road, Old Bridge Road, Peaks Mill Drive, Telegraph Road, and finally 8G, Speed Hump on Montego Drive.

[01:51:22] Thank you to Rick, Rich, and everyone else for your all work on that. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, Supervisor Franklin? Yeah, just very quickly, just want to also just highlight some of the top concerns that we get in our office constituent concerns are with regards to traffic safety um so this is essentially us kind of responding to uh those concerns and so uh just want to uh piggyback on supervisor bode's comment all right i don't see did you want all right no all right um so let's

[01:51:53] go ahead and take a vote for 8b c e and f and g all right and let's go on to 8d did you have any questions for staff supervisor weir no madam chair my concerns have been voiced previously i'm not going to waste time this afternoon all right i'd like to get a motion and a second for 18 so move

[01:52:32] madam chair second all right any discussion madam chair i'm super i'm sorry i do apologize because my screen is still a little frozen i have franklin in there wait franklin did you want to speak no oh yes all right so then angry bailey and then franklin right there you go yeah i just wanted to um you know commend uh this program so as you know um we've been working on uh this for quite some time now i'm curious i don't know if you have but rick i don't want to put you on the spot do you have any data to just talk about the um yeah what was it the trial program if you will

[01:53:10] and and and the you know the tickets that we've uh actually processed and if we were charging for that what would that look like i know there's many discussions about that i wasn't here okay All right. Sorry about that Madam chair members of the board Rick and is also your director of transportation Thank you for the question on this specific subject sir. We are talking about the extension of that pilot program for this for this red light program We will be setting up those cameras this four of those cameras this summer the remaining five

[01:53:45] That remain as part of the pilot will be coming to you throughout the rest of the year up to December We hope to gather the data that we gathered for the speed program as we did for the school speed zones. We're hoping to gather that same information throughout the summer, fall, and winter of next year and come back to you next spring to either make this program permanent or seek your guidance in which way you want to go with the program, sir.

[01:54:07] Thank you. Thank you for that. And let me just, I just want to end with this just to say why this is so important to me, the red light cameras. And you see it every day. people run through those red lights I mean incredibly late later than the light is I mean the light is clearly red and people are running and we've lost life already to this and so we don't do this and this is just one more measure that we can put in place as a county without utilizing our police and technology to help you all out there because I don't know what the issue is and why you must run a light that's been red for clearly 30 seconds big issue and I hope that

[01:54:47] this actually does something. This isn't about the money that's generated from it. This is about the safety of us not having this issue occur or maybe not having it occur as much as it has. And I just want to add this to it. Also, I know we can't do anything about this, but you know those cars have blinkers on them for a reason. And it'd be nice if people started using their blinkers to get in lanes and turn. I mean, we really need to figure out something with that because that's another public safety issue. Thank you. Thanks. Sir, I just want to, I forgot to mention, it's a $50 fine that we will be covering as part of that. You asked that question as well. Thank you. Thank you. You had

[01:55:26] that answered. It will be $50 for all fines, so it's all equal. And I don't even go on record to say I wish it was more. Again, it's not about the money. It's about saving their life and getting people to really pay attention to your driving habits. And I was just informed by Lieutenant peak here. Obviously, that fine can vary, and it's your choice, but we have set it at 50 as part of this one. Thank you, sir. All right, Bailey, then Franklin. Thank you. It's his birthday. He can do

[01:56:01] whatever he wants. But I thank you. I just want to say that continuity and making sure that we are following along with what we said we're going to do with the community is very important, and this, I echo what Supervisor Angry was saying.

[01:56:16] This is a result of when there were fatalities in our communities, and the Transportation Department got right on it to decide what can we do about when the Chief said, these are behavioral problems, so running light is a behavioral problem. And so this is our answer, along with the Transportation Department, to make sure that we're addressing what's going on in the community.

[01:56:39] And so, Rick and team, we really appreciate that you stayed focused on this and you are doing something about it as a result of what the community needs for protection. And so we do appreciate it. Thank you, Madam Chair. I said, Mr. Chair, pardon me. Supervisor Franklin.

[01:56:56] Yeah, just want to just point out, I was initially opposed to this because of how it's been implemented in Washington, D.C., and I wanted to make sure we weren't going to implement any type of predatory program here in the county. But through this pilot program, received a lot of feedback from constituents who are happy that we're taking proactive steps to address some of these behavioral traffic issues.

[01:57:21] And so for many of you that may know, this started with a lot of the deaths that we had on Cardinal Drive. And so that really pushed us to really say that we have to do something bold and try something new. Our officers can't be everywhere at once, and so this also helps our police department with enforcement as well.

[01:57:42] So just wanted to kind of provide some background and say that I'm fully supportive of this now. All right, I don't see anyone else in queue, so let's go ahead and take our vote. Motion passes 7 to 1.

[01:58:01] Supervisor Weir voting nay. All right, thank you. We are now going on to 8H through 8P. Can I get a motion and a second? So moved, Madam Chair. All right.

[01:58:17] I will give the motion to Bailey and Gordy. I'll give the second. All right. Any discussion on these items? Madam Chair. All right. Hold on. My thing is working. I have angry and then Gordy. Okay.

[01:58:33] I will go to Gordy. Madam Chair, thank you. So 8H is something that's been long awaited for folks in the Bristow community. It's getting the Chick-fil-A to handle more people.

[01:58:49] without backing traffic all the way up, almost out to Noakesville Road. So Chick-fil-A has been doing a lot of work in Prince William County. As you can see, we've got three applications here. There's another one that will be coming eventually for Virginia Gateway in Gainesville.

[01:59:08] But really appreciate the community spirit that Chick-fil-A brings, the support they offer to our first responders, particularly at this location. There's actually a memorial for Chris Young at this facility because he was unfortunately killed right in front of it.

[01:59:28] And so this Chick-fil-A has been a great community partner, and so very happy to see this finally being brought to fruition. And then the Manassas Park Zoning Map Amendment, This is to something that we almost never see.

[01:59:46] It's the downzoning of property from industrial to agricultural so that eventually will become a park. It used to be the broad run golf course. It's along the broad run. The county will take ownership of this and it will become part of the broad run linear park.

[02:00:04] And I appreciate our parks department and all of our folks who've been involved in this and bringing this to fruition as well. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, Supervisor Angry. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just want to address 8K. I think that was the daycare to some of those comments.

[02:00:22] You know, we've been discussing this forever. We have a shortage of daycare, not just in the county, in the nation, to tell you the truth. And so anyone that's willing to step up to help out, you know, I'm always supportive of. Because of the fact, I do not support any illegal daycares.

[02:00:37] And I know that many people find themselves having to use daycares that are not certified or monitored. And that just creates problems for more of our children. So, you know, I understand the challenges, the frustrations. The best we can do is monitor. The great news is that we know this daycare exists.

[02:00:55] And so, you know, it's going to help us once again with our growing need of child services for our youth. So I'm really happy to see this family taking on this adventure. I can tell you my wife was a home child care provider, day care provider.

[02:01:11] And that's really not an easy feat. So to everyone in that profession, I thank you for what you do, and I understand the communities. What we can do is just make sure and monitor, and if there's any issues going on, just please report those so that we can get in and try to get a win-win out of the situation. So I really support this, even though it's already been approved.

[02:01:29] I just want you to know that my support is for this daycare facility. So thank you, Madam Chair. And Supervisor Bodie. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just going to basically echo a lot of what Supervisor Gordie, the other half of Bordie, said in his comments. I have a Chick-fil-A in my district that's going through this process, and anyone who drives literally two blocks from here, west or east of here, sees that Chick-fil-A on Old Bridge Road, and if it's not a Sunday, it is packed.

[02:01:58] There are people all the way out to the Tribute, there are people all the way out to where the library is. there are a lot of people that go through there and they're great at getting people through very quickly but this will allow them to have that additional capacity to actually fulfill orders quicker as opposed to just taking them so really appreciate the work that was done on this application we have just have just like in the principles we have another one coming the Occoquan district off of the parkway it's the other famous one that everyone could come saw jumps off a 95 and gets locked up sitting behind traffic not only for Chick-fil-a but the Starbucks and all other places over there too so really looking forward to having that expansion of capacity

[02:02:35] so folks can get their chicken a lot faster thank you madam chair all right let's go ahead and vote get your chicken faster vote unanimous all right thank you so much we are now um it is showtime 8q um i don't know if anyone had any questions of staff before because i would like to contain all discussion within the motion supervisor gory did you have a question for staff or no

[02:03:11] Madam Chair, I would like to move to divide the question, breaking out Section 32290.07, the establishment of a housing fund, to have a separate discussion and vote on that issue.

[02:03:27] Second. All right. I guess we can just take an informal straw poll, because I'm in favor of it. Anyone else in favor? Everyone in favor? Oh, we have a vote. Okay. All right, then we will divide the question.

[02:03:46] So, for 8Q, did anyone have any questions on the ordinance for staff before I ask for a motion? Seeing none. All right. I would like to go ahead and get a motion for the ordinance. Second. So, that is Franklin Bailey.

[02:04:03] All right. Any discussion around the ordinance? All right. Supervisor Bode. Thank you, Madam Chair. Give me one second here. So, really appreciate all the folks that came out from voice on this, all the work that's been done on this ordinance over the last, actually closer to five years at this point did want to address some of the concerns that have been shared with me included by Ms. Osborne who I think is still here thank you for reaching out both through email and through communication sorry we couldn't get a chance to actually talk but I hope we've had good exchanges through email to show that I'm thinking about what you've talked about

[02:04:40] we are at a defining moment right now we are on the verge of making Virginia history if we pass this ordinance no other locality in the commonwealth has taken this up and actually passed the ordinance under this line of code now i know some of my colleagues some folks out in the audience in the community are skeptical and i appreciate a healthy amount of skepticism but again this ordinance has been years in the making um it's been shaped by community voices data and shared vision of a more inclusive and vibrant county so the need let's talk about the numbers for a second the

[02:05:17] Medium home prices rose from 2019 to today from $375,000 to $550,000. A one-bedroom rents have gone up 56% now at around $2,000 a month. We had a constituent share what she pays and what she gets.

[02:05:36] Over half of our renters, over half are cost-burdened right now. And over half of the housing stock in this county is still single-family homes, detached homes. I know we talked quite a bit. I know Supervisor Gordy says it as well, we have folks that only build basically one or two different types of housing right now, single-family homes and townhouses, stacked two-over-twos.

[02:05:55] There's a lot of daylight and a lot of different types of homes in between those two types of housing, and those things can provide a lot more price value and, frankly, a lot more accessible living for a lot of people in this county. But right now, we just don't have that, and we don't have policies to help promote that. So who's affected by this? The actual who, the human value.

[02:06:16] I heard a gentleman earlier say, let's talk about the humans, the actual people behind this. We have teachers, EMTs, retail and food workers, federal employees. We have the people that are sitting in this room right now. We have folks at Ikea. I had a town hall with Suarez or Bailey at the beginning of the year where we had folks who work at Ikea who talked about this and how they either have to move out of this county or live with their parents or find some other nontraditional way to afford to live here because every year it falls farther and farther out of reach.

[02:06:46] because of the market and how we have not built enough housing in this county that leads to longer commutes more traffic labor shortages and less vibrant neighborhoods so folks have you know some folks have brought to us hey this is going to bring crime because affordable units have lower class people are going to bring crime well we see the exact opposite is actually the case we know that what leads to crime is neglect and de-investment in communities not investment and vibrancy. This is not Section 8. This is not free housing. This is local land use policy that works with the private sector, not against it. Requires modest set-asides of affordable units

[02:07:24] of payment into the housing trust fund. Sets clear income guidelines and preserves affordability. Offers incentives for compliance, not mandates. Ensures design and construction standards are the same or at least comparable to market rates. So you're long gone are the days of the projects and having it so you're going down the street and you see, oh, that's definitely the affordable unit.

[02:07:46] That's definitely the slums over there. No, they're required within the confines of this ordinance to have comparable designs so folks can be seemingly completely integrated into the communities, not set aside, not segregated. Let's see.

[02:08:03] And it builds on our progress. We've done a lot on this dais, both this board and the previous board, to bring us to this point. We modernized the comprehensive plan, including a strong housing chapter that calls for the adoption of this ordinance we created and seeded the housing trustman which was mentioned earlier we've strengthened our housing staff even with this past year's budget we've added to our housing staff to help support this we also are going to be looking at more data tracking as well had a great conversation with joni and other folks about this we know that we haven't been the best at tracking our adus in the county we know that we haven't done the best at looking at and making sure folks even know that there are affordable units in the county

[02:08:41] that this board has already done with the case-by-case way we've been doing it thus far, but that's going to change. I asked for it. I know other folks on this dais has, and we're going to deliver on that too. And the last thing I'll say is we know at the end of the day that this supports generational roots in our community. There are so many people that talk about how once their kids become that 18 to 24-year-old cohort, they leave because there's not a vibrant, exciting life here, and because there's not really a place to live. As someone who has dealt with a 20-year-old who has gone back and forth, maybe living, coming back home,

[02:09:19] maybe not, what have you. It's an issue, and this is how part of the reason why we can address this. So it's not, this is a policy, this is about people. I look forward to supporting this. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Madam Chair. The reason I didn't ask questions of staff is I've been asking questions for more than two years and not getting an adequate response. Somebody raised the issue of unintended consequences, and that's really the point here. Why is it that no other jurisdiction in the Commonwealth is choosing to operate under this section of the state code

[02:09:54] that's been available for a while. It's untested. What consequences will it bring? Will our ordinance stand up to judicial scrutiny? I have my doubts, particularly given the current language, where the burden of proof lies, which leads to the issue of enforceability. It's not just my concern.

[02:10:16] I've talked to multiple developers and many of their legal advisors. Now, they won't come up here and talk about it because it would jeopardize their standing in the community and jeopardize some of their developments, but they're asking the very same questions I am. They're concerned about enforceability. They're concerned about effectiveness. Will this actually do anything?

[02:10:41] Because at the end of the day, it's a bottom line issue. It was also raised earlier that this does strip this board of a considerable amount of our authority over land use. One of the principal things we were elected to office to oversee and lays it instead in the hands of the zoning administrator. I've got a lot of people in the Gainesville district that are going to have a problem with laying this in the hands of the zoning administrator. And I suspect everybody else on this board has similar circumstances, especially with respect to density and waivers of

[02:11:16] parking requirements and buffers and other development standards. You know, I also have concerns as to whether this is actually in concordance with the enabling section of the state code. You know, the question of whether this can apply to a previously approved proffered application. There's nothing in the state code that says it can't, but I'm repeatedly told by staff that it can. But there's nothing in the state code, the enabling ordinance, that precludes

[02:11:51] anybody from doing it. Gets back to the question of enforceability and where's the burden of proof line. This thing needs a whole lot more work. Appeals. Just last week at a BZA hearing, the BZA asserted quite unequivocally that they did not have the authority to overturn the zoning administrator. Could not overturn her decision. I disagree, but I believe a 5-2 vote, they upheld

[02:12:25] the zoning administrator because they weren't going to question her knowledge. Are we going to go and tell the BZA that they do? The state code says they do, but if they're not going to, if they're not going to exercise that authority, then what are we doing? Do we need to change this to somebody else that they can overturn without any sort of issue? Perhaps the planning director. I'd feel better giving it to the planning director, who's much more qualified to look at transportation issues, development standards, that sort of thing, than the zoning administrator.

[02:13:04] And it sort of brings the question, all of this additional text that's in here that's not in the state code, are these reasonable regulations as required by the state code? I'm not so sure they are. We're going to dictate room size, looks.

[02:13:24] Is that really what the General Assembly anticipated? Is that really what they enabled with this code? This thing's not ready, guys. And we really need to take a long look at it. I've got more, but most of it is addressed with the section that we've taken out and we're going to consider separately.

[02:13:47] But this thing needs a whole lot more work, and I've been saying that for two and a half years, and nobody's been listening as we've been pushing this forward with unchanged language, largely unchanged language, for more than two years. Supervisor Gordy. Madam Chair, thank you.

[02:14:03] And thank you, Supervisor Weir. I share the same concerns. The folks of the Brentsville District elected me to represent their interests and to ensure that we employ smart growth principles to the development in our area.

[02:14:19] We have over 6,000 homes proposed tonight. We will take up an application that will bring 1,000 units, rental units, to the Brentsville District. So it's not like we aren't trying to solve the problem. The problem is it's a supply and demand issue.

[02:14:34] We're working on the supply side because even if we don't address the supply side, this isn't going to address the affordable housing because the cost of housing will continue to go up as homes continue to get built. I do not think it is a problem of single-family homes.

[02:14:50] The fact is we haven't built single-family homes in my district over the past decade. And as a result, every time a single-family home goes on the market, the house gets bid up. And therefore, the market price for every other home in the area goes up. That's the way the market works.

[02:15:08] And so we have to have more, and Supervisor Bode, thank you for acknowledging the fact that we are looking at, and the applications that I'm working with developers, is more than just two types of housing. We've got to have housing at different types that meet people where they are in their career.

[02:15:28] And one of the areas that we've got to get to, and I completely agree, is to get to those young people. Those are the people we're missing in our community. Unfortunately, I do not believe this ordinance, draft ordinance, is ready for primetime. And I'll give you a couple of perfect examples. When we're talking about messaging, and I have people saying, we don't want the low-income housing in our neighborhood. Well, the very definition of a house for someone who is at

[02:16:03] 80% of very median income is defined in this ordinance as low income. That is not what they are. They are moderate income. And in fact, in the ordinance, it talks about moderate income, but there's no definition for that in the definitions. And then for someone who's at the 50%, we call them very low income. So if we're trying to solve, if we're trying to address this from a messaging perspective, I think we need to get our definitions better so that we're not undermining the applications going forward because a policeman who's earning 80% of median income

[02:16:43] is not a low-income person. But the housing that we're trying to build for them and trying to get included in these applications is geared towards that policeman, that teacher. And then, oh, by the way, we're doing that without the ordinance. We're already doing it. We're getting it done, except that we have houses sitting empty for almost a year for some of the, uh, that had been designated as, uh, for, uh, for workforce housing. So I don't know that we're going to solve that through this ordinance. Um, and, and, and again, again, I get back to the thing is I cannot relinquish my

[02:17:21] responsibility to the residents, um, uh, related to density. We have, uh, transects. We work towards those transects. We try to moderate the density based upon what's going on with the schools, what's going on with transportation, and we take all these things into consideration to try to get these projects to fit within the community so that we do not overburden our infrastructure.

[02:17:49] And that's why it's called planning, and that's why we call it zoning. And so I can't relinquish that. And to support this would be me relinquishing that. And so unfortunately, I can't do that. So I appreciate all the work our staff has done. I really wish the governor would have signed that legislation this year. We, Supervisor Vega and I, wrote letters asking him to sign that bill to give us the most flexibility to create the affordable housing ordinance that works for Prince William County instead of one that is highly prescriptive from state law. And again,

[02:18:28] no one else has adopted this ordinance in the Commonwealth. And I think there's a lot to be said about that. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, Supervisor Angry. All right, then, Supervisor Vega. Thank you, Madam Chair. I certainly want to thank Supervisor Weir and Supervisor Gordy for how eloquently they addressed the concerns that, I don't want to speak for folks

[02:19:01] on the dais, but based on the ones that have spoken, have indicated their concern over the lack of accountability that this governing body will have. As stated, we all represent a little over 70,000 folks in our respective districts, and we have been elected for a reason, because we have the duty and the obligation to represent the best interest of our constituents. As most of you all know, the bulk of the work that we do as county supervisors stems from making land use decisions.

[02:19:36] This is not something that we take lightly as our votes when it comes to land use applications has a significant impact on your quality of life. It literally impacts everything from transportation to our children, learning in a classroom versus learning in trailers, to the quality of life that we all expect.

[02:19:55] With that being said, I also take issue to giving up that authority. And if I am mistaken or if somehow folks that have stated their concerns on that issue, does, you know, Ms. Washington or anybody on county staff want to reassure us that that is not the case, I would welcome that opportunity, but there is a lot of concern in regards to what role, if any, the Board of County Supervisors will play if this ordinance is adopted.

[02:20:23] With that being said, I'd like to ask the county attorney, because I've been doing a lot of, you know, back and forth and whatnot, but I'd like to ask the county attorney if this proposed ordinance is actually consistent with the state code. Madam Chair, members of the board, we've been working with the county executive and his staff on this, and we have provided our legal advice to county staff and to the board, and we will defend the board's action.

[02:20:46] We think that it is consistent with the county. So your position, Madam Attorney, is that it is consistent with state code? Yes, ma'am. Okay, thank you. And then, Madam Chair, could I ask Ms. Washington to come forward for a few questions that I have? I was hoping that we would do that before we have the motion, but yes, you may go ahead and have her come up.

[02:21:06] Thank you. Hi, Ms. Washington. Does the Board of County Supervisors or any governing body control the housing market? Tanya Washington, Planning Director for Prince William County.

[02:21:23] No. Okay, thank you. You know, we hear a lot about affordability and apartments, which is what folks want to see more of. The reality is that even the things that are promoted as affordable are not affordable.

[02:21:39] Through this ordinance, how are we going to gear our focus on actually making it affordable for folks to actually purchase or even rent here in this county? Because that is what folks have been saying to us for months now when they come here to speak during public comment time.

[02:21:57] I will start and provide some comments, but I would also invite our director of housing, Joan Duckett, to provide any additional perspectives on that. If you look at it from the macro level, the first thing to address really is a housing supply issue.

[02:22:16] And, you know, generally speaking, a larger housing supply can help to drive down prices because there's less competition for housing. As we all know, Prince William County's population is continuing to grow, and that creates a lot of demand for housing. But when a housing supply is not growing at a pace to keep up with the rate of population growth, then that creates more demands for the housing that does exist.

[02:22:41] And so that, as was stated by others earlier, drives up prices. So if we can, you know, look at different ways to increase the housing supply, that is one way to help create more opportunities for housing that's more affordable at different price points.

[02:22:56] Something that we stated at an earlier work session last year was, you know, speaking to the fact that even creating more housing supply at the higher price, you know, end also helps because when you don't have houses that are priced at the higher income levels, those residents will look at housing that would be, you know, geared towards more of, say, middle income residents.

[02:23:22] But that means that there are fewer of those homes that are available for those residents that, you know, for which that price point is more and they're more affordable for them. So that also curates, you know, sort of down pressures. But I would also just like to ask Housing Office Director Joan Duckett to speak to, you know, how they are looking at this issue.

[02:23:44] because within a draft ordinance, a number of elements that do help to drive the setting price points and ensuring that the homes would be affordable for certain time periods, and that is something that would be falling under the purview of the housing office.

[02:24:01] Okay. Thank you. Good afternoon. Joni Duckett, Director of Housing, Madam Chair, and Board of County Supervisors. So within the ordinance, what we will be looking at and working with the developers is on a fixed amount on the sales price of these units.

[02:24:21] That would be based on looking at right now the final four-person low-income housing limit under the HUD AMIs, or Area Median Incomes. For an illustrative purpose, which we've used within the Housing Trust Fund document and we're using within our SOP for the for-sale units, is that if a four-person low-income limit income was $95,300, you would multiply that by three times, and that would be the sales price for someone making 80% or below for an affordable unit.

[02:25:01] So that would be $228,720. And those incomes change annually, and it is based on the HUD annual incomes. This is what other jurisdictions use for their affordable dwelling units as well.

[02:25:17] For the rental units, we understand that the rents will be in accordance with the rent limitations based on the HUD financing and Virginia Housing or LIHTC tax credit financing.

[02:25:33] So there are limitations on the rent and the incomes for those as well. The ordinance also talks that they should never be paying more than 30% of their income. So we'll be monitoring that through the Office of Housing as well.

[02:25:48] For the mixed income, we'll be using the Virginia housing rent restrictions based on bedroom size of the units that are for rent. So we are implementing rent and sales price limits on all of these defined affordable dwelling unit residents.

[02:26:11] Thank you. I guess that also summarizes why even developers are concerned about this ordinance. Big, heavy hand of government once again dictating what can and can't be done in many ways.

[02:26:27] I just want to make sure that we're not sending... If I may, this calculation comes directly from the developers through the proffers. Yes, ma'am. I did not know that. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for that. You're welcome. I did have some concerns about that that I was going to raise because some of these numbers are generic in terms of specific to Prince William County.

[02:26:49] But thank you for that clarification. I did have one last question, and that is to Ms. Washington. Do you want to add anything or state anything in regards to the concerns that some supervisors have raised about our authority being removed from this process?

[02:27:12] For that question, I would defer to the county attorney. Thank you, Madam Chair, members of the board. With regards to rezoning applications, when an applicant comes forward and wants to have their property rezoned, that's a legislative act, and the planning office processes it, and the board votes on it.

[02:27:31] This is the board's legislative action right now. You are not giving up any authority. You are taking the authority right now by utilizing the tools that the Virginia Code has given you. And with this legislative act, if you adopt this ordinance, you are then saying that staff will administer the affordable dwelling through that way.

[02:27:50] You are not giving up any legislative authority because that's the action that you're taking today. Thank you. That's all I have for now, Madam Chair. Thanks. All right. We're going to go to Franklin, then Angry, because Supervisors Bodie and Gordie have already spoken once, and I want to make sure everyone get there one time and first.

[02:28:08] So, Supervisor Franklin? Yeah, thank you. And thank you to our county attorney for clarifying that because I was going to ask that same question to make sure that everybody was clear about what that authority looks like and some of those questions and comments that have been raised. Also, just want to point out that when we talk about low-income individuals or low-income, I guess, salaries or things of that nature, you have to understand that that's going to be based on region anyway, right?

[02:28:36] And so Prince William County, the average income for an individual is going to be probably different than Washington, D.C. And so our ordinance is going to be based on our residents and what the average income is for that. Also, I think, Joan, you mentioned about AMI.

[02:28:52] That's probably one of the most important tools that we're going to go by in determining affordability for these units coming online. AMI is what we're taking from the federal government. It's not something that we're making up.

[02:29:08] It's what the federal government determines to be, not more than that 30% of your income. So I just want to clarify some of those, but I also just want to just take this moment to thank staff for working so hard on this. Particularly, Joan and Elijah have been working maybe four years or so about this and asking a lot of specific questions to make sure they were getting as close to the will of the board as possible.

[02:29:33] also want to thank the stakeholders who found it important to advocate on this issue i don't know any piece of legislation that is perfect i just haven't seen one but certainly this goes in the right direction and it says that ideologically we believe in affordable housing here in this county and certainly we will have the opportunity in the future to amend if necessary or appropriate if we determine that we want to go in a different direction.

[02:30:01] And so I think this is incredibly valuable, important. It's something that we are well overdue. It is true that our neighboring jurisdictions, I think for the most part, already have ordinances, and Prince William County, once again, is just now coming to the table, but we are at the table.

[02:30:19] And so I do appreciate the comments of my colleagues. I hope my colleagues can find it to support this because I think this is the first step in a number of steps to addressing this issue. Now, is there more work to be done? Absolutely.

[02:30:35] We also need to figure out how to address those who have housing challenges today, which means those that are facing eviction, those that are having challenges with their utility assistance, with the rent that's due at the beginning of the month. We still need to figure out how to take care of those individuals.

[02:30:54] And I know that I've been talking to county staff about coming up with some policies that address those individuals as well. Lastly, I'll just go back to the discussion around low-income and very low-income individuals. We do have those individuals that live here in the county, and I would actually argue that we do need to address those.

[02:31:14] when we talk about the negative narratives around Section 8 and things of that nature, let me just say I'm not afraid of Section 8 housing. I think it's important for those at the very low income range. Unfortunately, that's not something we're addressing right now, but it's something that we should be addressing in the future.

[02:31:33] And so, you know, I understand the negative narratives around that, but I just urge people to do more research and get to know individuals at different income levels and understand that every individual, whether you're a high earner or a low earner, wants the same things, which is a decent, safe, and affordable place to live.

[02:31:52] Thank you. All right. What I'm going to do for everyone on the board, I'm going to go to all those who, because everyone's on cue almost, I'm going to go to everyone who hasn't spoken first before I go to anyone who's spoken second. So then it's going to be Supervisor Angry, and then Bailey, and then me. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'll try to be quick here.

[02:32:10] So, and, you know, I'm speaking to you all, my board here, okay? So I got on this board in 2019. Now, I'm not a me person, so it's not about me. But in 2019, I introduced that word affordability and affordable housing. 2019, no one up here was on this board except Michelle Robel.

[02:32:29] My point there is this has been six years in the making. Now, I want to talk about obligations. So I represent the Neabsco District, one of the oldest districts in the county. So I'm obligated to fix the overcrowding that we have in the Neabsco District.

[02:32:46] We have older homes, and we have literally more families living in a single-family, three-bedroom home than I can even imagine. So there's a huge problem there. But bigger than my responsibility to Neabsco is my responsibility to Prince William County, which is why I keep saying this dais, we represent the county.

[02:33:05] When people say it costs too much to live, they don't say it costs too much to live in Brentsville or Coles or Neabsco. They say it costs too much to live in Prince William County. We have to solve a Prince William County problem of housing. Now, I get it. We don't know what this is going to look like, this ordinance, but we've never had an ordinance.

[02:33:24] We are literally here now. Ms. Duckett, I remember when you got the position as the director of housing. I know we're growing this housing office to be more than what we were doing before with HUD and Paso and Section 8. We are now having a housing office with an actual affordable unit that we can figure out how to set these types of programs up because we've never had this before.

[02:33:47] So I hear what everyone is saying about growing concerns, but I'm always going to say we've got to start somewhere, and we are here to start somewhere. And so I will ask my one question is that as things develop and we see, if we see that it's not going the way we planned, Mr. Shorter, that we have a discussion on this board sooner than later so we can adjust fire.

[02:34:12] Okay, that's a military term. No one's firing anything, but we can adjust course and get ourselves back to where we need to be. So I ask that we look at that because we are in a place right now where we are beginning a six-year process of something that this county has never seen.

[02:34:28] So I'm hoping we can keep the focus there and that we do agree to this and that we do monitor and that we do make it, if any tweaks need to be done, that we focus on those tweaks and make it what it needs to be. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, Supervisor Bailey. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[02:34:44] I echo similarly what two of my colleagues have said. You know, I had a discussion with one of our residents on the western corridor of the county, and I hate to think of us as western and eastern. We're going to get rid of that, too, because we're all one community.

[02:35:01] But in that discussion, I mentioned that we've got to have a paradigm shift when we think about community. And when we don't have a paradigm shift in our minds about how we take care of the entire community, then we are in trouble.

[02:35:18] Because the community doesn't belong to one section of Prince William County. It belongs to all of us. And so the opportunity is, how do we solve the problem in providing high-end housing and low-income housing and the quality of that housing? How do we provide generational wealth to young folk that want to come here and pass on something to their families or absorb something from their elder loved ones? Those kinds of things. And that's just kind of

[02:35:53] how the world works. And we're not going to get it perfect. But if we work together, we'll get as close to perfect as we possibly can. Because people want to live in Prince William County. We stop here. I'm from the Midwest. I stopped here. I thought I was going to go back to the Midwest. But I like it here. And so I didn't buy a new house, which I, you know, first I was living in a new house. I bought an older house and had to have a lot of tweaks. And I still pay taxes, like all y'all. But I wanted to be here with y'all in this community. And so we really need to focus

[02:36:28] on not in my backyard. We need to focus on why not in my backyard. We need to focus on, okay, my student that's gotten that big salary out of college can't afford to live here, but where can he afford to live, he or she? And how can we work with the county's housing, like a Joni Duckett, to make sure that she gives them the training, he or she the training, to teach them how to buy housing. My little cousin moved here in 2018 and that happened. Joni, thank you. So I'm going to support this because working on something for six years is a real long time to make a decision.

[02:37:09] We're smarter than that, way smarter than that. And so we carry the mantle here on this dais for working with the community to make that decision. And we do live in the second largest diverse county in the, is that right or 10th? Second. Most diverse in the Commonwealth. In the Commonwealth. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. And so that's something to be proud of. That says we know how to dwell together in unity. How about that? So I just wanted to offer that for the

[02:37:46] wonderful emails that we've gotten and how they've been orchestrated. I really respect that because that's your voice, and we need to hear your voice. But I also want you to think about the paradigm shift in your head when it comes to community. Prince William County is not 1970, 1980s, or 90s.

[02:38:08] It's 2000s going into 2030, and we're moving, and we're moving in a very positive direction. So when the negative narrative comes out, I want you to stop and think, Supervisor Bailey said, I'm not having a paradigm shift because Supervisor Bailey got to do it too. But call my office if you disagree with me, but also be willing to have the discussion because that's what community is, having the discussion.

[02:38:33] So I am going to support this. I want to applaud Supervisor Angry. I wasn't here when you initiated it, but I was here when Supervisor Franklin initiated it. And I applaud you for bringing us into the fold and teaching us how important this is for this dais, for this community, and to get together in making decision-making.

[02:38:57] There's no, I don't care who gets the credit, but, you know, I applaud you for having the vision. So that's all I got to say. So I guess thank you, Madam Chair, for that opportunity. All right, thank you very much. I want to start with a number of us really had worked to get access to a different underlying legislation, 2304, And that was the preference because that would have given us more flexibility to craft something unique to Prince William County.

[02:39:26] That didn't happen. So we find ourselves back where we are looking at what is before us. And supervisor, we were asked a question, will it actually do anything? Well, we'll find out. But more to the point, if it's not actually going to do anything, why the opposition?

[02:39:45] The way I see this, and I'm going to really put myself in the center on this. this is a tool. It's a tool. It is not going to solve our housing crisis. It is not going to create a clutch of subpar housing. It's a tool. It's going to give us more housing. But I don't think that this is alone going to create or alleviate very much. It's just a tool. It gives developers more options. The Housing Trust Fund, on the other hand, I think is an excellent tool that's going to give us a lot more flexibility to do things that we need to do. But the ordinance

[02:40:25] itself, you know, and I respect all of the concerns that I've heard, you know, and I apologize, you know, there are some emails I haven't gotten to because, you know, I got them late, got them this morning. But it's a tool. That's it. Some developers are not going to avail themselves to the tool.

[02:40:45] Some will. And there are so many calculations going by, you know, out there. I had a meeting with representatives from, you know, our housing, you know, from Joni Duckett, representation planning development services because i had some questions and some questions came up from nvbia and i want to make sure they're addressed and all this is available in our packets you know for also people um in the audience you can look at the agenda packets and see what's in there we're really talking about a very small amount of housing that would be available under

[02:41:19] certain circumstances it's a watershed moment in that we're trying something new we haven't done this before this county. But this really isn't going to create a dire housing scenario, nor will it alleviate the current scenario. It's just a tool. I think the underlying thing is what does housing represent to people? That's the real question. It's a value-based question. I do feel in this county we could do more to create and incentivize affordable housing. And yes, we can

[02:41:56] also do more with maintaining affordability within this county, which is a separate issue. but this isn't alone going to solve our crisis and i don't think it's going to create a new one and that's why i'm taking a moderate approach to this again i would have preferred different underlying legislation we didn't get it so we have to look at what other options are available to us and i know a tremendous amount of staff work has gone into this you know and i applaud everyone i applaud everyone who's come out to speak for and against this because we hear you

[02:42:28] we hear you but for me i am supporting this i don't think we could have done better but we can't So here we are. And I do want to continue working with different advocates and opponents on making this better.

[02:42:46] And if we get access to 2304, I'm just saying, y'all, we know what to do, hopefully. And I do, you know, I know both supervisors, Weir and Gordy, express opposition to this. You know, and I've spoken to them a lot with getting access to 2304.

[02:43:02] I believe you guys have sent a letter to the governor. Not to leave you out, Supervisor Vega, but I spoke to them more. You know, so we've got to keep pushing for better, but we cannot also let the perfect get in the way of the good. And we can make adjustments to this.

[02:43:20] We can say that this is not working. We can say that it's causing more harm than good. I just don't think that's going to be the case. I don't think this is going to be really a watershed moment either way. I think it's another tool that we could use in our toolbox. We'll see, you know, how often it's used, when it works, when it doesn't.

[02:43:38] But I'm also asking for flexibility, because we know that we have a housing crisis. And just because, you know, I have my house doesn't mean that others don't need or deserve housing of their own. And that's something we've got to think about. I have my house, but I want other people to find their home as well.

[02:43:56] And I want them to find their home within our community. Supervisor Bode. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you for that. I'm just going to say a couple quick things. I know, for one, I think I've heard consistent on this day is that, like before, if we get access to 2304, let's do it, right?

[02:44:12] So I know Suarez are angry, sort of said it, you did, Madam Chair, some other folks have said it. I'm going to formalize it a little bit more as a request to the county exec and county staff. You know, let's have a review period once a year, formally, publicly, on how this is going. And if we do get access 2304, immediately, you know, obviously we'll know when that happens.

[02:44:33] But let's start the process of going down that road so people know that this isn't just going to be a static thing that we adopt it now. we throw our hands up up in the air and say, oh, it's going to do what it's going to do, that we are actually committed as a body to improving it as we see the metrics come in.

[02:44:51] I agree. We don't know fully how this is going to play out in terms of how the market is going to affect, or frankly, the developers that may not even be active in the county because we don't have this right now, or the trust fund, or those other things. So there are a lot of unknowns out there, but I would like to just say and formalize the fact that if we get to taxes to 2304 or you know after three years let's say we see this isn't working let's come back i don't think that's that's an unfair request so let's start with that but i did want to just address one of the major issues that's been raised and concerns that's been raised both by constituents and by this dais that we are sort of giving too much authority

[02:45:29] onto the zoning administrator and that you know this is going to somehow supersede this isn't been made by this board well the ordinance explicitly states notwithstanding any provisions to the contrary within this article, the rezoning application process shall remain unaffected. This article does not supersede any approved proffers social use permit conditions. So if there's a proffered condition, a proffered unit cap, this doesn't supersede that. So this idea that somehow we're going to make a decision on the board and then somehow a developer at site plan is going to somehow overturn that is not the case. Unit type is also explicitly said that you can't change unit type. So

[02:46:08] So for the concerns that you're going to have a bait and switch where it's going to have single-family homes and duplexes and somehow switch it in for multifamily high-rise apartments, again, within the confines of the ordinance itself, that can't happen. Also just wanted to end by saying I agree with everyone on this dais that there still needs to be more done.

[02:46:30] I agree with Supervisor Franklin explicitly that we have to get at tools that will allow us to get to those folks that are sub-50 and sub-30% AMI. We don't have that right now. This does not address that directly, but it's a step in the right direction of addressing the full continuum of housing, like I said earlier.

[02:46:49] So I'll be supporting this, like I said before. Appreciate the conversations. And, again, when we get access to 2304 and we have an ability to see how this is working, I'm more than happy for us to look at this as a body and reassess and review. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[02:47:04] Supervisor Gordy. Thank you, Madam Chair. And, Joni, could I ask you a couple of questions real fast? So if someone were to buy a home that fits within that, what's defined as a low-income unit, what is the timeline on, in terms of their equity growth, as the market rate, as the market goes up, what are the limitations on their ability to gain equity on their investment in this home?

[02:47:40] So per the ordinance, the restrictive covenants, God bless you, can be no less than 15 years, no more than 50. So we'll be working with the developers as they develop these units based on the projects. And what single-family are they for sale?

[02:47:56] Are they multifamily for rental? So that will help to determine the affordability period as well. Okay. But that's in here. I'm sorry. I've looked through here. I didn't see it. That's fine. I have to. It's okay. So, all right, thank you for that.

[02:48:14] And then that's the only question I really have for you. The only comment I would add is, you know, I've heard, you know, the fact that if we pass this, we're maintaining our legal role and legislative authority.

[02:48:33] But this still, to me, offers someone, the zoning administrator, the ability to make changes to applications outside of the purview of this board at some point in the future.

[02:48:50] And delegation of that authority is still not something I'm comfortable with doing. And this delegates authority, and I'm not willing to delegate it. Thank you. All right, Supervisor Vega. Thank you, Madam Chair. Great points raised by my colleagues in terms of it's not perfect.

[02:49:08] We have to start somewhere. But in the spirit of working in collaboration and trying to meet halfway, I mean, from Supervisor Angry to Kenny to Supervisor Bailey, all have talked about, even you, Madam Chair, that it's not perfect. We can do better.

[02:49:24] So I'd like to offer a friendly amendment. Supervisor Franklin, you were the one that put the motion forward for approval. I think that it would ease somewhat the concerns that some of us have raised if we include a sunset clause that allows for this to come back to the board after a year for review to make sure that everything is working as planned and that if there are any unintended consequences that we perhaps didn't consider, we have an opportunity to revisit and amend that.

[02:49:51] Hold on. I see the county attorney saying no. Madam County Attorney. Madam Chair, members of the board, with any ordinance that you adopt, you can amend repeal later on after going through the process. I have concerns with a zoning ordinance having a sunset clause in it, and you can any time if you want to look at it, but I have concerns especially because then you get into the process of applications, where they are in the process, is there a vested right, et cetera.

[02:50:20] So I would suggest that you, just as Mr. Bodie has suggested, having the county executive maybe have a work session on this to see where it's going and then make that determination then and then start the process with going forward through the Planning Commission and a public hearing to amend or repeal it.

[02:50:39] Thank you for that. I wouldn't be asking for us to change anything midway through an application, just kind of giving us an opportunity to have a review of, you know, the ordinance and how it's working and whatnot. But if there's a specific date for a sunset clause, there are applications already going through the process.

[02:50:56] But the point I'm trying to make is that we wouldn't be necessarily looking at that review to change anything, but rather have a report of how the ordinance has been working for, let's say, if it's for a year. And that can be accomplished by having the county exec bring a work session forward and updating the board on the progress, et cetera.

[02:51:15] But a sunset clause means that the ordinance goes away. It's gone. I see. So, yeah, the sunset clause means it expires. It's no longer an ordinance. Thank you. And I'll say just if I can, Madam Chair, Supervisor Vega, we are pretty committed to making sure that the board is kept aware and kept up to date, regular report outs.

[02:51:37] I think this is going to be great progress, so we'll make sure that the board is aware either via email from planning and other staff or from me directly. I'll also say that Supervisor Bodie mentioned legislation later on in this agenda.

[02:51:53] you're going to consider a board legislative committee. And with that, an opportunity for us to give regular updates on where we are and to prepare for next legislative season. And so I think that where the board wants to provide input and give strategic direction, there might be an opportunity through the committee.

[02:52:14] Supervisor Bailey. Thank you, Madam Chair. The question that I had, and, Joni, you probably can answer it quickly, or sorry. One of the things that I kind of pride myself on in my office with Ms. Karen is when there's a constituent service request, we try to get to it as soon as we can or, you know, we lose our day job, that kind of thing.

[02:52:40] But what I wanted to ask you is can you just rattle off from your brain, and I don't have it right here, the link where constituents or residents can find the housing numbers.

[02:52:57] You know, like you did the presentation on it, like where we were and where the housing needs are, where those numbers are on the website. And I know it's, okay, that's David. Please, David, if you could just say it real quick.

[02:53:14] Sure, pwcva.gov slash AFDU. Say it again, David. pwcva.gov slash AFDU. pwcgov dot org. No, pwcva.gov.

[02:53:34] pwcva.gov slash AFDU. AFDU. Okay. I just wanted our community to know that so that they could follow along with us and understand, again, I mean, it's basic stuff, but information is valuable, and it educates you, and so I want to make sure that they're coming along with us.

[02:53:56] That's all I have, Madam Chair. All right, thank you. Supervisor Weir? Thank you, Madam Chair. It's worth noting that every land use legal counsel has left the room, and I don't blame them. We're going to talk about this again when we get to 32 stroke 290.07, But I think we need to be reminded that we're a dual and rural state.

[02:54:20] With respect to Supervisor Bode's assertion with respect to rezonings, yeah, it's in the code, or it's in the ordinance. The question is, is it enforceable? Because there's no authority for that under 15.2-2305.1, and I know Ms. Roble and I disagree with this, but legal counsel for the development industry does not disagree, especially with applications that are entitled.

[02:54:46] somebody with vested rights and I don't want to see us going to court and fighting a losing battle but it seems like in many respects and we'll talk about this again at 290.07 we are setting ourselves up for litigation by adopting something that is not in strict conformance with the state code and setting us up for a challenge how often do we hear dylan rule you can or you can't do where is that power ascribed to you and a lot of the powers in this ordinance or a lot of the

[02:55:23] provision in this ordinance are not included in 15.2 2305.1 of the state code so buckle up because i suspect we're going to court all right let's go ahead and take a vote motion passes five to three supervisors vega weir and gordy voting nay all right thank you very much we are going to go

[02:55:54] moving forward we are into county executive time madam chair i'm sorry i forgot yes we separated all right dang you tom i'm ready to move forward because i'm hungry all right now um so we are going to go into trust fund so uh i'm sorry supervisor franklin second that was like meek

[02:56:22] so moved yeah all right we're gonna give it to mr gordy all right mr gordy we're fine you know what that's kenny told you to i was gonna say all right kenny told him kenny told her all right

[02:56:57] Kenny's a Margaret Whisperer. All right, so this has been properly moved and seconded. Is there any discussion? All right, Supervisor Weir.

[02:57:13] As I noted earlier, I have many issues with the ordinance, and this is one of them principally. Again, we're doing rule state, and yes, 2305.1 does allow for the establishment of a local housing fund. It does not provide staff the authority to determine how those housing trust funds are used or for what.

[02:57:38] That is a policy decision of the board and one on which there are many different views that have been expressed over the last couple of years. Are we going to use this for construction loans for the developers? Are we going to use this for housing assistance?

[02:57:53] Are we going to use this for gap funding? Are we going to use this for rental assistance? all of that goes out the window because it's been determined by staff that we're going to use it to in essence subsidize development costs and let me tell you something everybody's screaming about 15 million dollars 15 million dollars isn't anything that will get used up in the first three months ask the other jurisdictions you want to buy land in the gainesville district 15 million will buy you somewhere between 15 and 30 acres it's barely the amount for some of the infrastructure

[02:58:33] costs for a larger development. Transportation improvements, curb and gutter, sewer and water, running the electrical lines, easements, condemnations. I think before we adopt anything regarding 32-290.07, we as a board need to develop the policy as to how we want the housing trust funds spent. There's nothing wrong with adopting an ordinance that allows us to create a housing trust fund or we've already got the authority for that but in terms of how that money is spent is

[02:59:10] that staff's decision or is that a policy decision by this board and nobody has asked asked or answered that question supervisor gordy then franklin uh that actually was going to be my question i have a big question mark beside the word policy uh in my notes here um has a policy been formulated and if not when and what's the timing on that policy what's the what are the next steps it's me so so we do have a draft policy uh that policy we worked with the office of housing

[02:59:47] worked collaboratively with uh navaja uh on the draft uh policy and the first draft we also worked in collaboration with planning and zoning and development services to review as well as the county attorney. We are also, and Mr. Shorter is the county exec, to review and to make comments.

[03:00:08] We are now individually meeting with each one of the Board of County Supervisors to go over these draft policies, which is what they are, to get feedback from the Board of County Supervisors on things that you like, you don't like, you would like to take into consideration.

[03:00:25] We also had a community meeting with developers as well as other real estate industry to get their feedback on the draft as well and presented a PowerPoint presentation to them. We only had one developer that provided comments back, and they were very minimal.

[03:00:46] And we are scheduled to meet with you soon. Look forward to it. Thank you. Yeah, I mean, I think it really boils down to the effectiveness is going back to the policy. and I think that's something that we should be working towards.

[03:01:05] I mean, I know I've asked a lot of developers for a lot of money to go into the housing trust fund, except it's going into a housing preservation fund. That's what we have right now. It's going into the proper. With the proper fund, but, yeah, so for us to finally get this to a housing fund and then get the policy in place so that those funds can be utilized for their intended purposes is something I think that we need to move forward on and definitely look forward to the conversation about the policy going forward.

[03:01:39] Thank you, Madam Chair. Supervisor Franklin. I just want to clarify this. Supervisor Weir is in favor of more money in the housing trust fund. I never said I wasn't. I just want to go on record. So I'm going to go to Bodie first because he hasn't spoken.

[03:02:01] So Bodie, Supervisor Bodie. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just going to say I'm going to support this, but I would question it dovetails with what Supervisor Gordie asked. And the process, you're going to meet with all the board members, get additional feedback. You know, is there a timeline for when, are we going to vote on the policy when it's done?

[03:02:18] How does that, what does that look like? What are the next steps look like there? Policy for the trust fund? Yes. Yes. So we are anticipating as soon as we meet with all of the Board of County Supervisors, which should end by the end of June. and I believe it's June 20th, somewhere in there.

[03:02:34] Then we'll go back and make the recommendations that you have done, and then we'll bring it back to you sometime in July or August. Appreciate that. So just for clarity, it is going to come back to us for a final vote. Right, I just wanted to make sure, based on what was said, folks might think that because we're passing this right now, that it's in staff's hands to be implemented.

[03:02:51] No, we are still going to be having the final okay and stamp of approval. Absolutely. Appreciate that. Thank you. And I'll just add, if I can, given the recess in August, more than likely it'll be coming back to UCOM for consideration in September. Yeah, no problem. I like your time on my better job.

[03:03:09] All right, I just wanted to say something quick on this. So we did actually have this discussion last year about how we are going to use the trust fund. And I believe supervisors were in Franklin talked about, you know, rental assistance.

[03:03:26] But, and again, this wasn't a formal vote. I believe it was an informal, you know, straw vote to give the, you know, our team direction, but we talked about using this to create more supply because we have a real supply issue. So we did give the staff direction. This wasn't something that they created without any input for us. The other thing I just want to say, you know, I'm nervous when we throw around things like, you know, people that I've spoken to or people that I've, you know, this attorney versus that attorney. You know, if things aren't on record, I get a little hesitant and I do trust,

[03:04:02] You know, I do trust our legal guidance when I want to. No, actually, all the time. I do trust our legal team, and I do trust that our staff are truly putting forth the effort needed.

[03:04:20] A lot of our staff actually also lives in the county, so they care. They have a vested stake. But I get a little nervous when we start, for lack of a better word, attacking our staff or demeaning our staff, because these are people who could do other things.

[03:04:36] These are people who can go to the private sector and make a whole heck of a lot more money. But stay here, guys. Stay here. We need you. And for the interns, we want you. We need you. We need you, too, when you graduate and finish everything you've got to do. Because at the end of the day, I mean, all of us want what's best for our county.

[03:04:54] We may have differences in our vision for the county or what we would like to see happen. For my part, I've always said, I want us to be more competitive. I want us to have the best schools. I want us to be a community, a true community of choice. But I also think we have to look to the future, not who we are today or who we were yesterday, but how are we going to grow?

[03:05:16] How are we going to change? How are we going to evolve? How are we going to innovate? You know, what Prince William County is today is going to be different in 20 years and in 10 years. And it is my hope. My legacy is not having a school named after me because I have an unusual name and no one pronounces it right anyways.

[03:05:31] But it really is leaving opportunities and not leaving too many problems for the board that comes after me. That really is what my legacy is, and that is what I hope to see. So with that, I have a couple more people in queue.

[03:05:47] I know that I kind of need to move this along. So, Supervisor Franklin, you disappeared. Bodie disappeared. Did you? You're good. All right, Supervisor Rear. Thank you, Madam Chair. I mean, I recall several discussions about how the money was to be used.

[03:06:06] I also recall that we never came to a determination on what the policy was going to be. No directive. We talked about it with 2304. We talked about it when we were discussing 2305.1. We've never issued any direction to staff that I'm aware of. Yet staff's going to bring us a policy in a couple of weeks or a couple of months.

[03:06:27] But the policy is already in the language that you're adopting. You're establishing the policy today. The language is there. So why are we going to discuss a policy on something that we're already adopting unless we're going to amend the ordinance in September?

[03:06:45] cart before the horse so i'll offer a substitute motion to defer adoption of 32 stroke 290.07 until staff brings us the policy recommendations all right we have a substitute motion on the floor is there anyone to second it i'll second all right supervisor vega second it so um is there any further discussion on the substitute motion all right doesn't look like there is so let's vote on the substitute motion all right i'm moving fast i'm sorry when i have a few weeks off i get

[03:07:20] out of practice motion fails three to five supervisors angry bailey bode franklin and chair jefferson voting nay all right so let's go back to the original motion i don't see is there

[03:07:56] any other discussion if not let's go ahead and take a vote at least i'm not the only one having

[03:08:18] computer issues today okay are you sure you don't want us to sing happy birthday victor while we wait how much plastic do you got in that wallet bob how much plastic you got yeah that's probably

[03:08:55] true because i don't have a lot of credit cards i believe in paying off my bills motion passes

[03:09:47] six to one supervisor we're voting nay and supervisor vega abstaining from vote all right we now we really all right that's done now we really can move all right there ain't nothing else mr county executive mr shorter floor is yours thank you very much madam chair members of the

[03:10:13] board i'm going to just give it a few minutes and let folks leave out yeah all right madam chair

[03:10:59] members of the board, going to go ahead and get started. Just a few updates for me. One, as you may recall, one directive was issued during our last meeting. That directive was for staff to research, review, and evaluate the provisions of legislation recently passed, authorizing localities interested in establishing a tree canopy fund by ordinance. That directive was assigned to public works. We closed one directive since our last meeting. You all were sent information on this.

[03:11:32] One additional option for residents to purchase three-year dog licensure as noted in the response to the board via email. If the board is interested in moving forward, we would just need a directive to do so. Three-year dog license?

[03:11:53] Yes. So direct. Second. So direct. Amen, yes. Directed and amened, okay. Very good. Then also want to remind the board that during last week's board work session, Supervisor Angry asked the question, not directed, but asked the question about reminding haulers of permitted hours of operation.

[03:12:18] I sent an email to the board laying out the email that was sent to all haulers in the county, reminding them of the permitted hours. I would also remind the board that Public Works will host a quarterly meeting this month with trash haulers, and they will also address this topic during that meeting.

[03:12:38] That meeting is required, so we expect that all the trash haulers will be present. And so, finally, Madam Chair, just wanted to take an opportunity to introduce and welcome our 23 bright student leaders who are here in the chambers with us.

[03:12:56] They are, yep, a hand clap is okay. I'm going to ask them to quickly just stand up and say welcome to Prince William County, not all at once. They come from schools around the Commonwealth, universities and colleges around the Commonwealth.

[03:13:17] I believe all the way up to New York, we have one from Syracuse. And all young people who have graduated, grown up right here in Prince William County. We are thankful to have them. Welcome to Prince William. Look forward to your work this summer.

[03:13:33] So welcome, welcome, welcome. Just wanted to make sure. I'm actually excited that you had an opportunity to see some of the SUPs and amendments and some of this discussion. This is government, local government at work. So great opportunity to introduce them to local government and hopefully for some of them a career in public service.

[03:13:53] That's right. Oh, we didn't plan on that. we got time okay all right so i'm sorry y'all don't be bad just you know but i don't hope you start on my right and we could just uh if you don't mind introduce and uh what school and then

[03:14:11] what agency you're going to be working with and you survive their their winters we see good job

[03:14:37] hello i'm delenn mean i go to old dominion university and i'm with the office of procurement

[03:15:18] Hi, I'm Lauren Kelly. I'm a student at George Mason University, where I study environmental science and endangered species conservation, and I am working with the Office of Sustainability. Hi, my name is Brianne Norwood. I go to Longwood University down in Farmville, and I am with the Office of Executive Management.

[03:15:43] Wait, I'm going to ask a question. If you've spoken, sit down, because I want to make sure I see some of the people in the back who haven't spoken so we can see them as well. Thank you. Hi, my name is Arianna Grant, I just finished up at Marymount University with a degree in communications and I am working with the Office of Communications and Engagement, shout out Shane over there. I'm Kira, I go to George Mason University and I'm working with the library.

[03:16:07] I'm Emma, I go to James Madison University and I'm actually doing communications for the chair. Hi, my name is Lucas Jogis, I currently go to Inova Community College but I'm planning to transfer Virginia Tech to do finance and wealth management and I'm working in the HR department.

[03:16:24] Hi, I'm Zach. I go to George Mason. I study government and national politics, and I'm also in the office of the chair helping out with policy stuff. Hi, I'm Bella Gould. I go to Syracuse University and study psychology, and I'm with the Office of Community Safety.

[03:16:42] And you survived the winters too. Good job. My daughter goes to Rochester Institute, so she knows your pain. My name is Bouchon. I go to ODU, and I'm at the HR department. Hi, my name is Grace. I go to Longwood University and I'm with the Human Rights Commission.

[03:17:05] My name is Aiden DeWeaver. I recently graduated from Virginia State University and I'm going to the University of Virginia for my master's degree and I'm working with the housing department. Hello, my name is Elvira Solotenko. I go to the University of Virginia as an international relations major and I am with the Department of Economic Development and Tourism. Hello, I'm Rahim Zade and I go to the William & Mary Law School and I'm with the county Attorney's Office. Hi, my name is Melinda, and I'm going into my senior year at George Mason

[03:17:44] University, and I currently work with the Department of Public Safety and Communication. Hello, my name is Morgan Peterson. I go to James Madison University, and I am with the Office of Historic Preservation. Good afternoon. My name is Jared Cofield, a third year in the five-year MBA program at Hampton University with a concentration in Marketing and Communications, and I am with the Community Services Department.

[03:18:11] My name is Caleb Levins. I go to Longwood University, and I'm studying criminal justice and sociology, and I'm with the Sheriff's Office. And if you don't mind, I want to have the HR staff that's managing the program stand up and introduce themselves as well.

[03:18:33] They have done a phenomenal job putting the program together, so just a quick word. That is all for me, Madam Chair.

[03:19:06] Well, congratulations to all the interns. How many of you guys, I mean, how long have they been here? Like a week? One week. So they started with us last week. I hope you haven't seen anything here today that makes you reconsidered. All right.

[03:19:24] We're going to go on now to agenda item number 10, county attorney time. Madam County Attorney, you have an intern. Yay. What do you got for us? Thank you, Madam Chair. I do want to thank Office of Executive Management and Human Resources for allowing us to fold in our law clerk.

[03:19:42] We've had a summer law clerk program for years. We haven't had the money to be able to pay for one, and we talked with Chris and his team and human resources, and we are welcoming him joining us for our office this summer, and he'll stay with us for weeks after the internship program ends, but thank you for that.

[03:20:00] With regards to item 10A, we have no items for closed session this afternoon, and with regards to item 10B, this is tangential to item 8A, where you had the public hearing and adopted the amended changes to the county code based upon the General Assembly. These are items that need zoning text amendment and for the subdivision ordinance needs to be referred over.

[03:20:22] So I recommend your support and approval of item 10B. So moved. Second. All right, any discussion? All right, that was the discussion. Let's vote. Vote unanimous.

[03:20:45] Supervisor Vega absent from vote. All right, anything else? You're good. All right. So for supervisor's time, we are going to, I'd like to separate out the last one, 11-H, because there might be some discussion around that.

[03:21:00] So I'd like a motion for 11-A through 11-G. So move, Madam Chair. Second. All right. Any discussion on those items? Usually isn't. Let's go ahead and vote. I wish I brought my rubber ducky.

[03:21:21] Vote unanimous? No, I got a rubber ducky. He's got his eight ball. Should have brought my rubber duck out. It was. I bought a rubber duck. That's cute. All right. Maybe he'll join me for the evening session. All right. So let's go on to 11-H. We can have any discussion within the motion.

[03:21:36] I'd like to get a motion for 11-H. So move, Madam Chair. Second. All right. Is there any discussion? This is, again, to establish our legislative committee. Is there any discussion? Supervisor Bode. Just very quickly, I've supported the creation of this committee for quite some time.

[03:21:52] And as the county exec alluded to earlier, I think it'll be a good way for us to advocate for ourselves as the General Assembly. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right. Did you have something, Franklin? No. All right. Then let's go ahead and vote. Unanimous. Supervisor Vega absent from vote.

[03:22:20] All right. How am I going to mix it up today? I am going to start with, I guess, Supervisor Franklin and then Angry. Okay. On Wednesday, May 21st, I participated in the Town Hall for Residents at Belmont Bay to discuss their potential rezoning.

[03:22:43] Later that evening, I attended the Newport Estates HOA board meeting and provided an update on the soil mitigation fund that the board is looking to potentially create. I also hosted Dumpster Day this past Saturday from 10 a.m. until 2 p.m.

[03:22:59] It was held at Fred Lynn. We had a shred truck and lots of activity. I don't know how we sent the word out, but people from Bristow, Gainesville, Woodbridge, everybody showed up, and I'm thankful for that. We collected 2.940 tons of discarded household items in metal.

[03:23:18] So thank you to public works teams, team that came out, as well as the Woodbridge Potomac Civic Association, who helped to set up and pass out materials, and, of course, to just our general county staff. A great program that residents always look forward to having each year.

[03:23:36] And then also just want to point out the last two weeks, I think several of us have attended high school graduations. So I just want to congratulate all of our high school graduates and then all of our graduates, period, here in Prince William County. I can't tell you which class screamed the loudest because they all seem to be very excited.

[03:23:55] But I can tell you it's always a good time going to the graduations because everyone is happy. No one is angry. And, you know, we just have a good time with the school system and their administrators. So thank you to Dr. McDade, Barbara Lateef, and the school board. Always a good time with them.

[03:24:11] This Monday, or Monday on the 16th, I will be hosting an open house with Delegate Roja Henson from 6 p.m. until 7.30 p.m. at my Woodbridge office, located at 2701 Neabsco Common Place, Suite 150. We will have kind of like a resource fair, so if you're looking to learn more about our county departments, feel free to come out.

[03:24:35] Delegate Henson will have some information related to state agencies and benefits. So please come out, and then we'll announce this soon. But I believe myself and Senator Carol Foy and Delegate Henson are looking to do a joint town hall just to address some issues up and down the Route 1 corridor and what happened in this past legislative session in Richmond.

[03:24:57] So be on the lookout for that as well. And with that, I'm done. All right. Thank you for not yielding. Supervisor Angry. Thank you, Madam Chair. First of all, thank you for the birthday wishes and these balloons, Supervisor Faye. Okay. 26th, Monday 26th, 10th anniversary celebration for Willing Warriors.

[03:25:18] They had a ceremony and service since that was Memorial Day. So great service there. Supervisor Ware was out there as well. Supervisor Vega was out there as well. I think that was it in case I forgot anybody. Yeah, you were there.

[03:25:38] That's right, you were there. Yeah, Willing Warriors, okay. Hey, it's a long week. All right, but anyway, thanks to all of my colleagues that joined out there. That was a really good event. And so also the Memorial Day ceremony that we held for the county, inducting Sergeant Posey to the memorial wall that we have up front.

[03:25:57] So that was a very well-attended piece. Thank you for that. Also, the VFW held a Memorial Day cookout. It was very well-attended, so I want to thank the post for putting that on. And then Tuesday I attended the funeral service for Congressman Conley. You heard a lot about him today.

[03:26:12] And those words were well, heartfelt and well said because he was a great man. So I took a lot from him. So that was awesome. I did the opportunity to check out the Virginia Transit Association. They have their annual conference in Richmond. I was down there for a couple of days.

[03:26:29] Really well attended event. Learned a lot about the transportation industry and the importance of it, not just in Prince William County, but in the region. And then to the graduation. So I attended about nine of them, and they're all very long. But congratulations to all the graduates.

[03:26:45] I wasn't able to make Chiffy Lube live yesterday for the two there. But, again, congratulations to all of the graduates on that. And then upcoming events. So Wednesday, my colleague here, Supervisor Boldy, and I, I'll be sitting with him at a Sweet Spire rezoning kind of town hall HOA meeting that we're going to be having Wednesday at 630.

[03:27:06] So looking forward to that discussion. Also, on Friday, 6 June, I'll be attending a 7.30 service at Dara Noor for the Eid celebration there. So that's going to be a busy day. It's a lot of folks out there going to be on the road. So be safe in the area of Holy Road and the county complex here.

[03:27:27] And so lastly, I'll just go ahead and shout out our Juneteenth ceremony that we're going to be having here on Thursday, Juneteenth. That's going to be a big event. I'm very excited about it. You heard the committee speak earlier. They're doing some great work over there.

[03:27:44] And I would just say the night is going to end with the firework display. So everyone, everyone, everyone, get close. Get on the roof. Get on the rooftop. Sit in the yard with your lawn chair, if you can see this. It will be similar to what we've seen here before when we had the peanuts in Prince William County.

[03:28:02] Every Friday night there was a firework display, and it was always awesome for people to sit up and watch that. So hopefully we'll bring back that feeling and that vibe and get more fireworks into the eastern end of Prince William County. So I believe that is all, Madam Chair. Thank you. All right, Supervisor Bode.

[03:28:19] Thank you, Madam Chair. Last week, I had a chance to sit down with folks from the Brent Forest community about the Hold the Square project. Really, really great discussion. There was a wide variety of concerns, but also aspirations shared about the project.

[03:28:34] Really wanted to appreciate all the folks that live off of Lost Creek in that Brent Forest area for coming by and talking to me about what they care about. Wanted to touch on the... I already mentioned it, but we're going to be sitting down with the County Center HOA folks this coming Wednesday, or tomorrow, I should say, about the Sweet Spire project.

[03:28:58] Looking forward to that. So that as well. Also wanted to remind folks that my dumpster day is this coming Saturday. It's going to be at Bethel United Church, just off of Smoketown and Mindyville Road. We will be there from 10 until 1.

[03:29:14] So if you have trash, you got, you know, your spring slash early summer cleaning, and you have stuff that you want to get rid of, please come by. We will also have be thrifty there like we did last time, so stuff that you want to donate instead of throwing away, you know, lightly used items, furniture that's still in good repair, those things can be donated as opposed to being tossed to our folks, so please come out if you have that kind of stuff too.

[03:29:35] Um, and just wanted to, to go back to Jerry Connelly for a second. He was a giant. And I think that no matter what side of the aisle you fell on, you had respect for him. Fairfax County in the greater Northern Virginia area is the way it is. And there's so many accomplishments that can be tied to at least his involvement. And many folks who are aspiring politicians, current elected official on this dais, folks from all walks of life can trace at least part of their journey to Jerry Connolly. So for folks that may not have been that familiar with him, please, you know,

[03:30:12] please, please, please look him up. He has a lot of fingerprints on this county, even though he represented only part of it for a little while. But he will be sorely missed. And I know that he leaves enormous shoes to be filled. The last thing I'll say is to go back to the graduations, you know, agree with Supervisor Franklin. Those are always a great time. And you get to see the unique character and sort of celebration that each school comes with it. But also alongside that is the success stories that come along with every single one of those young people that walk that

[03:30:47] stage. I went to Woodbridge High's graduation on Friday and Principal Abney shared with us at the beginning of the school year they had someone who dropped out of Woodbridge. They were able to get them back and that person walked on Friday to go from dropped out to walking across that stage that's the power of our schools when they're when they're they were when they're done right and that's the power to change trajectories of our education system so as we continue to talk about a wide variety of things just know that those graduation ceremonies there's a lot of folks that go into making sure that each one of those people including the young person

[03:31:24] themselves walks across that stage and how that changes lives thank you madam chair all right supervisor gordy thank you madam chair um i since our last board meeting um i was out on travel uh so i don't have any events but um my travel was focused on uh going to where i grew up in north louisiana to check on my parents and my in-laws and and it just may it just reminded me of of the importance of helping to take care of our senior citizens within our community um the baby boomer

[03:31:59] generation is the largest generation, and the challenges that they're facing are increasingly significant. And so I appreciate all the work that our county staff does to support our senior citizens and our Area Agency on Aging, as well as I recognize all those who have opened up their homes to, you know, we have many multi-generational households now with families that are taking care parents and kids at the same time. So I just want to recognize that is a prevalent reality

[03:32:37] within our community. A few things. First of all, I want to congratulate all of our graduates. We have four high schools in the Brentsville district, and so many, many graduates that definitely want to congratulate and know this is an exciting time for all of them.

[03:32:56] This is an exciting week for the Brentsville district. We have Live Golf starting on Friday. The world's eyes will be focused on Prince William County and Robert Trent Jones. And I want to invite the community to come out.

[03:33:12] You can get tickets on the Live Golf website to come out and see some of the world's top golfers playing at Robert Trent Jones. So appreciate Robert Jones and the work that they do to continue to put Prince William County on the map in support of our economic development and demonstrating how great of a community that we are.

[03:33:33] We also have Malarkey, the long-awaited opening for Malarkey Distillery, a company that was born in Prince William County and has now expanded, and their products are sold around the world. And so very excited about their next steps and the fact that they have made a commitment to Prince William County and keep this county as their home.

[03:33:58] And then we have the Goodwill opening at Somerset Crossing on Saturday as well. And this is going into a facility that's been empty for a long time. And so it's great to have them to come in and to provide services for our community while at the same time giving folks a tax deduction on their contribution.

[03:34:20] So with that, Madam Chair, I'll turn it back over to you. Thank you. All right, Supervisor Weir. Thank you, Madam Chair. I've only got one thing. As I've mentioned before, Dominion Energy is working on preliminary maps for the Morrisville Wishing Star 500 and 230 kV line projects, which cover Falk here, Prince William, and Loudoun counties.

[03:34:41] As I've noted previously, I have concerns that the transmission line and easements may have significant impacts on county-owned property and services. When Dominion Energy files its application with the State Corporation Commission, I would like the county to be in a position to file as a responding party. Therefore, Madam Chair, without objection, I would like to direct the county executive to work with staff to review the proposed plan, identify areas where the line could impact county-owned property and services, and identify any staff concerns with the proposed line.

[03:35:10] In addition, I'd like to direct the county attorney to begin exploring and engaging with outside legal counsel to review the viability of the county's position as a responding party and the costs associated with such action to include the costs of outside counsel, expert witnesses, and other litigation expenses in this unique area of the law.

[03:35:28] The county executive and county attorney should then provide the board with any recommendations to include timelines, fiscal impacts, and any other pertinent impacts for board consideration. Supervisor Franklin. Yeah, I just have a couple of questions. I guess the first is related to the intent.

[03:35:45] I think I'm clear in that maybe part of it is to be careful of where transmission lines are going in certain communities and making sure, if not, if you can just clarify that. But I do have a few other questions. Well, initially, because it involves county property, we have to look at where the county property is.

[03:36:04] Staff will look at the other impacts. But the lines do cross Coddharpin Park and create some issues with ingress-egress, crosses a couple of parks, also crosses the training academy and a couple of other county-owned sites.

[03:36:26] And remembering from last time there was such a case, the county prior to withdrawing as a responding party actually kind of sort of forced them to change a route because they didn't want to cross or we wouldn't give them permission to cross a county owned property.

[03:36:48] Yep. And thank you for that. And with this, do we need a resolution or is it just to come back with information? Madam Chair, members of the board, when Supervisor Weir mentioned this a couple times during supervisor's time during board meetings, we had discussions with him to explain that we'd like to educate the full board on what all is entailed with this, so we'll be coordinating with the county executive on this, probably provide you our legal advice in closed session, and then if the board is interested, there would be a resolution authorizing us to engage outside counsel.

[03:37:20] Sure, and maybe this is, I guess, better for closed session. My other questions were related to businesses who actually need access to potential lines that aren't currently there, if they will be negatively impacted by this. And then also, are we requiring ourselves to be responding parties?

[03:37:39] That's another question, and so maybe that's closed session discussion. I don't know. The decision of whether the county is a responding party will be the board's decision, And so that's what we want to educate the board about, what all that means, being a responding party. And looking at the, Dominion has not yet filed their application.

[03:37:58] And once they file it with the SEC, there's a whole process, number of days by which you have to respond, et cetera. And we would be looking at the different routes. And if the county does not give permission to cross county property, where the routes would go, et cetera.

[03:38:13] And the SEC determines the, you know, if there is a need, then there will be the route. Gotcha. And so we don't need to make that decision today. No, no, no, no. This is just a directive for the county exec and the county attorney to look into it, provide some information to the full board, and educate you on the process so that you can make the decision, an educated decision, on whether you want to be a responding partner.

[03:38:35] With respect to the impact on the businesses in need of the power, does it ultimately impact whether they get the power or not? Quite frankly, the answer is no, because Dominion is mandated to bring it to them. The question is, how are they going to bring it to them and where?

[03:38:50] And that's what this whole process is about. All right. I don't see any. Do you object, Supervisor Franklin? All right. I don't see any objections. Are you finished, Supervisor? All right.

[03:39:06] Supervisor Bailey, just one check. Thank you. You sure, Bob? Okay. I'm good. Okay. So on the 22nd of May, I was so excited to introduce the Fettler Market Study in a town Hall in conjunction with our Economic Development Department, Christina Wynn and Sean from the Hunden Study Organization and Laura and the entire team for an exceptional presentation to the Potomac community. We had an excellent participation rate. The business community came out and it was lots of questions, lots of

[03:39:44] dialogue and it projected the new vision for the Potomac District. I also want to congratulate again Pastor Henry During because on the 25th I attended the Star of Bethlehem Baptist Church groundbreaking ceremony for building the expansion portion to the church.

[03:40:02] It's a project that has been in our county for almost 20 years, and we are breathing life into it, and so congratulations to them. On the 26th, I had the opportunity to join Congressman Eugene Vindman at the Quantico Memorial Day ceremony at Quantico to honor our wonderful veterans that have served us, the brave men and women that gave their lives for our country, and that was beautiful.

[03:40:31] And then on the 26th, Congressman Vindman and I joined Supervisor Angry at the VFW Post 1503 Memorial Day Community Cookout. We had a great time there. It was a great crowd there, and the weather was good. On the 27th, as many have mentioned already, I lost a dear friend, Congressman Jerry Connolly, who we had his funeral service, and Jerry, we'll miss you.

[03:40:55] He got me into this space and taught me how to serve people, and I will never forget the lessons that he's taught. Many condolences to his family. And then on the 31st, I participated and joined the Omega Psi Phi fraternity for their cookout as they serve St. Jude.

[03:41:15] And it's an annual event that they have for the St. Jude's Children's Research Hospital every year, hamburgers, hot dogs, and ribs. And then on the 31st, I joined my husband as he was the keynote speaker in Fredericksburg for the Alpha Phi Alpha Black and Gold Gala that happens every year.

[03:41:36] they serve and celebrate themselves in excellence, legacy, and education and the impact that the Brotherhood has on their service, has for their service and today joined Prince William County's 2025 pride celebration. We had a ball and we did that whatever dance that was with the, okay we had a good time and but it was excellent. The weather was good. Upcoming events, just want to congratulate Malarkies. I'll be attending the Malarkies to Steel Spirit Ribbon Cutting on the 6th. That's going to be a lot of fun.

[03:42:12] And then lastly, I just want to, again, as I embrace and honor our wonderful interns, want to say congratulations. You're paving the way for those that are coming behind you. We have attended the graduations here in the county and they're excited, so teach them well. And so congratulations to all of our students, and this is an opportunity where we have time to spend with our superintendent.

[03:42:37] She's doing an exceptional job in making sure that we are priming our future, the next generation, to go after you come. How about that? Thank you, Madam Chair. All right, thank you so very much. There is a lot to be said. I do want to touch upon, again, what leadership means, because that's something that you guys are learning.

[03:42:59] What does leadership mean? I did go to the funeral of the late Jerry Conley. it was i have to be honest it was shocking you know i didn't realize how soon he would leave us after announcing um that he would no longer run for off he would again run for office but for me leadership is what you believe behind again it's not the schools named after you or anything named after you it's really what is it that you do while you're on the this earth and what is it that you leave behind um so quickly i just want to go through a few things

[03:43:32] um live golf is coming this weekend to prince william county very exciting um i did a christopher shorter actually and i we this two physical officer and i we did a um uh interview with good day washington so that aired um i'm gonna my team and i are gonna post it online tomorrow um live golf as i mentioned you know that is going to be very exciting for the county again introducing more people to prince william and robert trent jones golf club which is gorgeous one of the things i've been kind of putting out there and once our talented economic development

[03:44:09] team is done with live golf i want to talk to them about creating a prince william county restaurant week i love food i love to eat all the time and as you get older y'all i'm going to tell you it stays with you longer and it's harder to get rid of it's called extra pounds and so that's something i want to have a discussion about again you know once live golf is done what would it look line to create a restaurant week because we have a lot of great establishments here but it's tough and they're hurting right now you know the economy's changing people are eating out less and then there's some people who just don't realize all that prince william county has to

[03:44:44] offer and i want to make sure they know i have a quick directive that i wanted to give um my community gardens sticking with the food thing um you know i think that community gardens are a great way to establish community and there have been studies that show that community gardens and open spaces, actually are good in helping reduce crime.

[03:45:06] And I think, again, it's because it's building community cohesion. So for my directive, community gardens provide great opportunities to connect with neighbors and others in our community, improve the environment, provide education, and create access to locally grown and environmentally sustainable foods.

[03:45:23] Prince William County currently supports a community garden at Veterans Park, and there are other county-owned properties with the potential to support additional community gardens. Therefore, without objection from the board, I would like to direct the county executive to work with staff to explore options for establishing two additional community gardens on county-owned property and report back to the board with recommendations.

[03:45:47] Considerations should be given to, among other things, one-time and reoccurring costs to develop, maintain, and operate the gardens, potential partnerships with private organizations, and assessing community demand, as well as insurance implications. The county attorney's office is directed to review the information and recommendations for any legal issues.

[03:46:09] When the research and work is complete, the county executive should report back to the board with his analysis and recommendations during a board meeting or by memorandum, as he deems appropriate. All right, I don't see any objections. Don't object to community gardens, y'all.

[03:46:27] And really, that's all that I have. I'm going to yield. No, I'm going to give back less than a minute. I'm sorry. Just briefly, thank you for that directive because that's one of the things that was announced in the Federer Park market study.

[03:46:45] So I appreciate the vision. I just wanted to say that. Thank you so very much. And with that, we are going to go into recess. We have no closed meetings, so we're going to go into recess until 7 o'clock. All right.

[03:47:01] Thank you all.

[03:47:01] one who notices i am without a screen so this means it's going to be a little interesting i'm

[03:47:49] asking everyone today as i've been having computer or ipad issues all day so i'm going to be looking around when you guys have comments and things of that nature um but we are going to get started with public hearings uh moving on to agenda item number 13 lucky 13 i would like to start with 13a special use permit for cane kennel do we have the applicant do you have a presentation okay

[03:48:13] if we can bring that up okay got it okay oh okay i want to go back i want a puppy it's a mini dachshund mini dachshund and black long hair german shepherds west german bloodlines um so this i'm kevin kane uh greetings uh chair jefferson board members uh happy birthday

[03:48:53] supervisor angry i see he's in the house my name is kevin kane i've been a lifelong resident here at prince william county i moved here with my parents in i think 78 79 my wife moved here i think in 83 we both graduated from garfield high school i was served as a prince william county police officer for about 11 12 years i three kids that have graduated in the county i've coached baseball here in the county Little League Lake Ridge Middle School in Colgan High School just this past year with my son.

[03:49:29] So I have a very vested and active history here in Prince William County. And I grew up in Dale City, lived there until 2017 and moved out to Noakesville. Moved out to Noakesville and looked for land in the agricultural division zone to build a kennel for boarding, for dog boarding along with breeding minister dachshunds and and german shepherds not together separate separate i'm not trying to do any hybrid type things um so anyhow that's a little bit about me and uh and why i'm here um again the mini dachshund and the german shepherds um this

[03:50:07] request is for a special use permit uh up to 40 dogs uh with training classes offered grooming breeding limited retail only for the clients of the kennel like if they need dog food or whatever for their stay or training materials or stuff like that. We'll have like a small shop set inside one of the buildings.

[03:50:26] Back in September 11th, we had the Planning Herring Commission recommended approval of the special use permit. Staff also recommends approval of the cane kennel. The plan consistency is yes in all the areas of long-range use, community design, culture resources, so on and so forth.

[03:50:47] So we've got everyone in the staffing and the Planning Commission on board and have met all the requirements that they have set forth when we started back in 2024 of this process. This here shows the layout of our property line.

[03:51:05] I don't know if I can pull that up. How can I blow that up? Okay. Anyhow, house with driveway, the main entrance, this is an aerial view. Kennel would be going right about in here in this area.

[03:51:22] Back here, there's a shared pond and a lot of foliage and trees and wetlands back here, which made this area the best conducive. We've actually, this was, like I said, the best area for the use.

[03:51:41] Here's the Noakesville design layout of the kennel. As I said here in that picture, A, B, and C would be the kennel buildings, which we'll see later on. Building 1 and 2 would be like metal barn-type buildings you see throughout Oaksville. And again, I'll have some sketches and pictures of the design of those.

[03:52:02] Originally, we were told we needed to have a second entrance or a separate entrance into the kennel. The original design I'd asked for was to use the current entrance and just modify it to a commercial, which I understand that that would have to be something discussed here today on whether to, if that would be allowed or approved.

[03:52:26] Here's kind of a layout of the buildings where the blue areas are the kennels, with the black being the buildings. These are like covered porches, so it'll look like, you know, a barn with a covered porch. Well, and then the open grass area would be training yards or exercise yards.

[03:52:44] Everything on the outside would be six-foot privacy fence. And then along here, too, six-foot privacy to kind of shade the view lines from the dogs. Each A and B kennel or A and C kennel would hold up to 12 runs.

[03:53:00] B kennel would be 16 runs. And I'll have a picture later on of those type of buildings as well. Here's a building concept of the building, what it looked like with the awning and the structure of being a metal building.

[03:53:19] That isn't exact, but it gives an idea of what we're looking at. Here's from Boss Buildings. I kind of had them try to help draw up and design it through a sketch. Again, 10-foot tall roof or line here with the awning.

[03:53:38] These actually would be moved up to here and over here, but gives you a design, kind of an aspect of what it'll look like. Just like I said, most every other barn, it isn't going to look like a commercial building that you'll see in an industrial complex. It's designed to match the barns and structures throughout Nokesville.

[03:53:59] Here's the kennel, what kennel A and C would look like, the 12-run kennels. The door here, we're going to have moved to the end so that this would be all the backside of all windows where the door would be on the outsides where if we go back to that, you'll see the entranceway here and here with this being all wall and windows.

[03:54:20] Same with here, a door here and here with all windows, making sure everything is kept, you know, everything's inside of fencing. Here's the other side where you see their indoor-outdoor runs. Inside, these are five-by-five boxes.

[03:54:38] Outside are five-by-ten-foot runs. They'll have guillotine doors that'll be shut at night. Once the sun goes down or it gets nighttime, the dogs would be locked inside with the guillotine doors and stay inside so you wouldn't have them outdoors at night.

[03:54:55] Here's the middle building. There's kennels on both sides. As you can see, this wall-type thing, we plan on using them for all the kennels in between each of the runs, even on these ones here. they will have this type of wall. So again, reduce the sight lines and interacting of the dogs to help reduce the stress and anxiety or any type of reaction. If we have any type of reactive dogs would be helped to lessen that and also separate them. Here's where the A and B one has the walls

[03:55:29] where you can see each of them are separated in there. Here's a view from the kennel site towards Fleetwood Drive, and the neighbor's off to the left, the Gurley House. I'm standing right about here in this location when I'm taking these pictures to give an idea of where I'm standing.

[03:55:53] So there's the sight line. This is our main drive, our driveway right here. This actually leads to my neighbor Justin Hill's house back in the back corner, but you can see it's sight line through ears nothing but trees these are evergreen trees and and um here we go this is uh towards the whitley house which is next door to them um again their driveway is about there's their mailbox about right here their driveway's right about here with that fence line but again here's the sight line you see from there and i don't see a house um this is towards the whitley's you can almost see

[03:56:33] an outline of one or that's a car i'm not sure but again that's the sight line across the street One of the things I plan on using in the construction of the Radeco in the kennel buildings is this Acusta block soundproofing material.

[03:56:54] So it's a viscoelastic polymer material. Its name is both. So anyhow, it comes in block 16 and block 32, either eighth or sixteenth inch. But anyhow, they're to they'll be they're put on in the inside before you put the drywall or the paneling up on them And what they do is they typically raise the sound transmission class fit to any standard construction assembly It's increased internal dampening creating an airtight seal and being flexible rather than rigid and like many constructions

[03:57:31] As a result ranges from one pound to two pounds, but what it really we're looking at is the demission The sound and let me see where I had that, but it would typically it means we don't want the boundary walls in so 50 results in a gain and total loss of more than 15 decibels at any specific frequency I can go through if you'd like to different How do I get rid of this so I can go up and okay?

[03:58:08] Okay, so some of the that'll be and I also plan on using the fencing you see But here's some different types of things. It was especially for animals.

[03:58:25] Here we go. All right. We plan on using the Acosta fence as well on the outside fencings. It can reduce it anywhere between 28 to 30 decibel levels. Here we go, neighborhood kennel.

[03:58:45] Just right up the line up here, the Acosta Park Farm Community Kennel Project. Retrofitted Alders 28 by 60 dog kennel. and it was loud enough to interfere, so they called the acoustic block who came in.

[03:59:02] They used the 8th layer of acoustic block in the standard stud walls to reduce the more sound than 12 inches of concrete. The material is 4 1⁄2 to 30, available 36-foot rolls. But anyhow, my understanding, there's five other kennels within five to six miles, and none of them use this technology, And they're thriving businesses with neighbors around in the agriculture division as well.

[03:59:31] But we're going to use this type of material in the building of the kennels. And then they also have fencing, what they call acoustic fence. And where did I see?

[03:59:48] Here's dog park noise barrier. So put up this type of fencing on the outside. Again, it lowers the decimal level.

[04:00:05] I'm trying to products, acoustic fence.

[04:00:16] All right, anyhow. And it's also, if needed, we can do the quiet cloud panels in there. But right now, we're looking at building the kennels with the acoustic block material inside them, the kennels and the acoustic fence on the outside for the fencing to reduce the noise and provide noise abatement solutions.

[04:00:43] How do I go back to, okay. Here's a list of kennels. There's, like I said, there's five other kennels within five miles of Hasgurus, 1.8 miles away. And they've been there since 2001.

[04:01:02] I'm real good friends with Megan Judge, who's the owner of this kennel. She's like a mentor to me. Be using a lot of her knowledge and experience. As you can see, the closest, the average house is about 835 feet away from the kennel, front of their house to the kennel. The last house that sold was in January 2025. It sold for almost $1.35 million, so there isn't a diminution. From what this is showing, there's no diminish

[04:01:37] in property values. Bigger Better K-9 is on Parkgate. They have numerous houses. Again, And these are the average values of the home, almost $1.2 million, $1.15, $1.6 million, $1.25. So as you can see, this one here, the K-9 Peace of Mind issued to SOP is 5.3 miles.

[04:01:57] It's right on Dumfries Road. All these ones are in Agricultural One zones such as ourselves. And this one is surrounded by R2 housing a lot. Their average house is only 248 feet away.

[04:02:14] And they've been in business, I believe, since 2005 or so, and not seeing any complaints or issues with dog noise. And all of these ones have 38, Megan Judge is 38 dogs. Canine kennels, or Kellenberg kennels is 60 dogs.

[04:02:33] Canine piece of mine, I think, is 50 dogs. I'm asking for 40, so right around the area, if not less. As you look at my house, the average closest house is 683 feet away. um which is granted closer than than a couple of them um but the ones closest to me at uh 511 520 850 um they they're on board and they have no have not spoke out about uh me doing this um the ones that that are across the street are showing 895 920 and 1010 152 feet from their like closest

[04:03:11] portion of the house to the closest portion of the kennel again with the property values most The property values average at $1.2 million just around mine. And this is all out of Zillow and Google Earth to find the distances and the price and estimated values of the homes and also when they were last sold or what have you.

[04:03:32] So that's where I got that information. I have several letters of support from neighbors to my immediate area. Mr. Avant lives right close to, right, it's a driveway separation between me and his house.

[04:03:51] And he's one of the closest neighbors. You know, convey his enthusiastic support for the aspiration to build a kennel on my property. He's a dog owner himself. He witnessed how well I've cared for my dogs. I know how excellent extending the service to the community. There's definitely a need in this area, which I've also confirmed with several vets in the area.

[04:04:10] And I know as we all, Noakesville and Brentsville area is growing. with anywhere between a thousand to three thousand additional homes in the next year or two so i know the five kennels i've spoke to usually in the summer times and the holidays are booked and having to turn away people so again we're trying to provide a service for the community a small business it's permitted here in the agricultural zone and yeah here are two others the Grims will know due to having a baby that they won't be able to hear but anyhow it shares property line with my parcel

[04:04:48] just doesn't see any issues of having a kennel and fully support my vision for the property let me know if there's any way to assist you Justin Hill is my next door neighbor he writes I support Kevin's desire to build a dog kennel on his property Kevin's family are great people they are very responsible with their animals and may have many well behaved dogs currently Kevin's family moved to our here at a rural crescent because of the passion the dogs for the because dogs their passion. Nooksville is a great place to raise and care for animals. Opening a kennel will allow the canes to help other animal lovers with their pets. He's a kind and approachable man.

[04:05:21] He was a principal mechanical officer, has been stated for 12 years, and a fine, upstanding citizen. He has no reservations about the cane family operating a dog kennel next door. Then here, we have a neighbor here that originally wrote something up on Facebook, and I spoke to her in person afterwards, and she retracted the statement previously rendered in regards to cane kennels.

[04:05:44] She's spoken at length with me and satisfied with my explanations of all concerns. This letter served as a proxy for the meeting to help on 9-minute level as we were unable to attend. So she withdrew that, and also here she posted on Facebook there was some disinformation that she had heard and subsequently shared regarding some of the finer points of the cantaloupe proposition, such as there was a pit bull kennel, which it was not.

[04:06:07] She loves pit bulls, just not in mass. Mr. Kane has done multiple things to mitigate any inconvenience that the public at large could potentially experience, which I've gone over with the sound mitigation and the design. She rescinded her objection to my kennel, both to me and to the county.

[04:06:22] If you wrote a letter, I would encourage you to get in touch with him personally and give him a chance to talk to you. She apologized for any confusion uproaring the letter it caused. Stan amazed the fact that my post about a kennel got never attacked any individual, only a potential issue for property. But on all, she is an apology and a retraction of what she wrote on social media.

[04:06:46] Here I have a couple of videos. This is standing in that same location, giving you a view of the sight line, kind of get an idea of the traffic that goes by.

[04:07:04] It's not really in mass. This was at 5 o'clock at night that I took this. This one here is a 360, I'm sorry, this is a 360 degree where the kennel is so far. Nothing but trees that the one house to the mr. Rivera, and he's a supportive of the kennel plan So then we get into my property in my house then along this one finally We see one fan and they're in support this over here would be that towards the girlies the Whitley's and we had already seen Towards oops the Ingrams

[04:07:42] Again, this is just a video of the front So I start towards my property line and right there is where that white poles property line So this is the sight line you see. Again, these are all evergreen trees.

[04:08:00] The hope is not to take out any of these if I can use the current entrance and just widen it to the 30 feet, which the tree line in between there is more than 30 feet, so I wouldn't even have to take any trees out. I could use the existing size and just extend the pavement entranceway.

[04:08:16] But as you can see on both the sight lines, all you see are trees from the kennel. That's really all I have. any questions for me i would be willing to answer i know i've spoke to a few of you in person and and i haven't had you come out to the property to see it for yourselves and i appreciate that um but uh yeah all right guys you know i don't have a monitor so i see supervisor rear just one question what's the height the acoustic fence the height it's going to be the outside

[04:08:53] fencing six to eight feet i will have to work to see how the aesthetics look with the camp that the metal buildings are 10 foot tall on the walls and then you'll have the I think it goes up to 12 or 13 feet on there so I didn't want to completely come up to 10 or 8 feet and not have airflow being able to get in over the fences for the cooling of the dogs and allow the air if I go up to 8 10 feet that unfortunately could could block the airflow but I still plan on doing those at least six foot height on the outside and those would be privacy fences as well wooden privacy so that'll even have some abatement um and then the acoustic fence on the inside to to absorb that sounds

[04:09:31] all right does anyone else supervisor gordy did you have something or uh thank you ma'am chair yeah thank you for that was going to be the question i was going to ask about the height of the fence um let's go back to the that what you just said at the conclusion um i know in going back and forth with transportation that they've asked for a 30-foot cut in that tree line um in order to create a commercial entrance um i'm i'm of the mind of not supporting that piece of it to preserve

[04:10:04] that uh buffer uh between yourself and the community and your neighbors um and so uh you and i've talked about that and and so and then you just confirmed and so as we proceed tonight um as we come to a uh a vote on this i will be making a motion to to uh ensure that the entrance room attains with your current entrance instead of taking out that commercial entrance that'd be great it was that was my original design plan and asked for it was vdot that had told me they wanted a second entrance so i had to go to get the plan but i would very much welcome and be in agreement

[04:10:41] and concurrence on that thank you that's all i have for now thank you madam chair all right anyone

[04:10:46] else all right all right thank you sir we can have the county present good evening chair jefferson

[04:11:23] and supervisors. My name is Alex Vanegas from the planning office, and I am the case manager for this application. So this is a request for a special use permit to allow a commercial kennel of up to 40 dogs with training classes, grooming, breeding, and limited retail only for the clients of the kennel. The property location is approximately 10.7 acres. It's addressed as 12900 Fleetwood Drive, Noakesville.

[04:11:58] And the property is located approximately 0.3 miles south of the intersection of Park Gate Drive and Fleetwood Drive. Staff is recommending approval for this application. This shows the long-range land use designation, which is agricultural and forestry.

[04:12:21] It is A1, and as you can see, it's consistent with what the surrounding properties are. Again, the long-range classification is AF. The implementing zoning district is A1, which the property is.

[04:12:39] According to the ordinance, A1 agricultural zoning district special uses do indicate that commercial kennels are allowed in the A1 district. This is the site, I'm sorry, the SUP plan for this application.

[04:13:00] As you can see, there are two points of ingress and egress off Fleetwood. The first one is for the residential unit, and the other one's for the commercial kennel. From what I've heard from Supervisor Gordy and the applicant, they would like to use the existing residential to minimize any tree cutting along Fleetwood Drive to minimize the view shed.

[04:13:29] Staff had checked with transportation on this. As long as this is a commercial entrance, the residential property is a commercial entrance, and then it can veer off to the kennel, and then the back portion can remain a residential driveway.

[04:13:46] So that is something that staff can support. The applicant did provide some illustratives of what the kennels will look like. And just to put it in context, the commercial kennel would be in this area.

[04:14:09] And as you can see, it's pretty consistent with the surrounding community. A lot of the properties have multiple buildings on their property. So, you know, I think that's consistent with what we're seeing in the A1 district in the area.

[04:14:29] Also, by eliminating the ingress-egress for the commercial access to this point will minimize the viewshed impacts with several of the neighboring properties, so staff is supportive of that.

[04:14:48] And just so you can see the tree line in perspective, this is the existing tree line. There is a space here where he has his residential driveway. The cut would be in this location, which could provide some viewshed concerns from, I think, the Whitley's.

[04:15:07] I'm sorry, the Whitley's as well as the Ingram's property. But by minimizing it and having one point of ingress, egress, that eliminates any potential viewshed concerns. So, the planning commission had asked the applicant to reduce the litter quantity from 12 to 6 litters per year, which is in condition 2.

[04:15:37] And condition 4, we added the noise mitigation by committing to the use of acoustic materials for the kennel.

[04:15:57] So with that, staff is recommending approval with the conditions dated January 15th, 2025. The proposed use is allowed by special use permit as conditioned, and the proposed use is consistent with and compatible to the surrounding area contacts.

[04:16:16] And we will gladly take any questions. All right. Does anyone have any questions for Alex Venegas over here? Alex, I'm thinking about VDOT.

[04:16:32] VDOT's demanding or requiring a second commercial entrance? They did request a second entrance, and that's why we told the applicant they had to have two, because originally I guess they wanted their first entrance as primarily a residential entrance only, and therefore VDOT said, no, you need to have a commercial entrance.

[04:16:57] By what's being proposed, that I think would alleviate, and I think transportation can speak to that as well. Well, I'm just worried. You know how many issues I've had with VDOT over the last six months on just exactly this kind of thing. Are we looking at a situation where transportation will have to issue a waiver, and will VDOT be willing to accept it, or are they going to hang tough like they did with the Starbucks? So VDOT's primary concern isn't that they need to have a separate access point. It's that it needs to be built to a commercial standard. Okay. So as long as the access point is built to a commercial

[04:17:35] standard and at some point diverts to the residential driveway, VDOT won't have any issue and it won't require a DCSM waiver as currently discussed. Have you talked to them about that? We have. Okay. That's all I have, Madam Chair. Alright, anyone on my other side? No questions?

[04:17:53] Alright. That's going to come next. Hold on. So let me explain the process. I perhaps should have done that. First, the applicant speaks. We ask the applicant questions. Then the county speaks. Then we ask them questions. So what I'm going to do next is I'm going to open the public hearing and I'm going to call people up.

[04:18:12] And I appreciate if you're not called up, please do not go stand in the back. It's not that we have a lot of people, but there's a sign over there, fire marshal, no standing. I kind of like to adhere to that, kind of have to adhere to that. You're going to have three minutes to speak. What you're going to do is you're going to say your name, magisterial district where you reside.

[04:18:29] If you want to give your address, don't be surprised if I show up one day for dinner. Hope you're a good cook. And then after we do in person, we do remote. So if there are any remote speakers, and then after that, the supervisors, we have a chance to ask any questions based on any follow-up or anything that you guys have brought up.

[04:18:49] Then we take the vote. There will be a motion, a second, and then we debate it, and then we take a vote. And so with that, I am going to go ahead and open the public hearing. I generally call people five at a time, but we have six, so what the hey, all of y'all.

[04:19:09] Charles Gurley, Denise Gurley, Justin Ingram, Lauren Ingram, Jamie Whitley, and Mee Ling Whitley. So you can go to the back, the microphone. Are you one of those people? All right, you can go. Oh, who's ever...

[04:19:26] Okay, Charles Gurley. Y'all just need to get to the back, okay? Just get to the back.

[04:19:43] If someone goes before you, I'm not gonna... I just... If y'all can all go to the back. You can just go. i mean say your name state where you're from all right thank you um i'm i'm uh jamie whiteley uh brinsville district i live directly across the street i have a few things so i'll try to fit this in um so i've been in uh nokesville for 20 years uh and i've watched what i've seen in nokesville is a lot of the commercial farming the the the farming the farmland has basically been um

[04:20:20] mostly turned into neighborhoods so right now if you drive around our part of nokesville it's a where agricultural activity is more on the hobby side, not necessarily commercial. I generally support a landowner's ability to do what they want on their property, except when it negatively impacts other people.

[04:20:42] I object to this kennel because of the precedent it's going to set by allowing people to put a Category E storefront in their front yard. I had sent an email to all of you. I hope you got that. it was prior to the last planned session with some mitigating factors that I thought would alleviate this. But having a storefront in the front yard and then the potential for barking dogs. 40 dogs is a lot. I was under the impression those trees in the front were going to be taken

[04:21:15] down for the access to the commercial building structure. But anyway, a commercial kennel falls under Category E, like I mentioned. Commercial use with intensity. So this includes businesses like churches, veterinary hospitals, indoor-outdoor shooting ranges, three-bay auto mechanic shops, and so forth. I really don't want that in the front yard within my neighborhood, and I don't know if any of you would want that either. So I think approving a Category E activity just sets that precedent um i don't agree with the with uh the the county's the planning commission in that

[04:21:54] i that this category activity is consistent with uh the surrounding um area there's no other commercial uh activity uh in the vicinity of uh of where i live so this would be the first um and i think if this was approved it just like i said it sets a precedent for uh for other similar businesses to be opened and operated out of somebody's front yard in our neighborhood.

[04:22:18] My second objection is the noise. 40 dogs, I think, just guarantees periods of nonstop barking. I get it that they're going to be put away at night, but during the day, there's a lot of random noises that you hear, gunshots or whatever, and it's going to just trigger a bunch of barking dogs.

[04:22:36] I can hear the announcer for Brentsville football games, so sound travels pretty well across the landscape in in in oaksville um i do think it's it's a little disingenuous that that mr gain has garnered support by telling people he's only going to have 10 dogs when the application is for 40 dogs and that includes uh scarlet uh the the woman who changed her uh her her mind on on support of this she was told uh he was only going to have roughly 10 dogs well if it's going to be 10 dogs then let's not ask for 40 dogs i think that's just uh i'm sorry sir but your time is up okay

[04:23:13] sheet all right next speaker please good evening chair jefferson and members of the board my name is justin ingram and i live at 13045 fleetwood drive directly across from the proposed entrance of the cane kennel i want to be clear my family owns dogs cats and horses and we are also small business owners who work from home we are not against animals or entrepreneurship what we are against is a proposal that is fundamentally incompatible with the surrounding area special use permit 29 requests permission to place 40 dog commercial kennel with up to 12 liters per year

[04:23:52] in the front yard of a 10-acre residential agricultural property, highly visible, extremely close to the road, and directly across from homes like ours. It's a large-scale business in a rural community designed for residential and agricultural living, not commercial development. The owner has plenty of land to move this kennel to the rear, but instead it's placed 150 feet from Fleetwood Drive with a full commercial parking lot and delivery area.

[04:24:16] And with 4,700 square feet of new structures, this is more than a kennel. It's an institution. There's also a question of noise, which is not theoretical. Section 14-5.1 and 14-4, the county code, limit animal noise that is audible for 10 consecutive minutes at 50 feet.

[04:24:35] And we all know that 40 dogs outdoors will exceed that frequently and uncontrollably. And let's not forget, this is a discretionary special use permit. Section 32-700.5 gives this board the authority to deny it, and its use is not compatible with the surroundings.

[04:24:53] And this one is not. If the permit must be allowed, I urge you to require the kennel to be relocated to the rear of the property, that the dog count be reduced, and that the breeding be eliminated or capped. And the public, your constituents, have made their stands clear. Over 70 neighbors have signed in opposition.

[04:25:10] But the best option, the most reasonable and community-minded one, is to deny this permit as proposed. Our neighborhood, our zoning, and our quality of life depend on it. Thank you. Next speaker, please. Good evening.

[04:25:31] I think that's the wrong timer. don't know. Thank you. Great evening. I'm Lauren Ingram. I live directly across from the proposed kennel. On the map that they were showing earlier, our property would be impacted significantly by taking down the trees. So I'm really thrilled to hear about your thoughts, Mr. Gordy, around preserving those trees. That would be really helpful. I sit on my porch a lot, my front porch, And I would much prefer to see some evergreens.

[04:26:02] I moved to Noakesville and we purchased land in 2011 and built our home or built a home that we intend to live in forever because of the farming community that Noakesville is and because of the peaceful, quiet place that it was to raise our family.

[04:26:21] We operate two small businesses from our home. So I'm an entrepreneur. I also work for a corporation. My husband runs his own small business there. We are major animal lovers with the horses, and we have two large dogs ourselves. I will say that I know that the Canes also have large dogs already.

[04:26:39] I hear their dogs. It doesn't bother me at all because there's only a few of them. But if I were to imagine 40 large dogs, that is a significant difference. So I beg of you to please reconsider the number of dogs that we are allowing in this kennel.

[04:26:55] I'm glad to see that the number of litters has been reduced. I would love to see the number of dogs be reduced as well. When it comes to the real estate, this is where I really feel like this is an unfair situation. I deserve to have the top value paid for my property if I were to ever want to leave.

[04:27:15] I personally would not want to move in next to a 40-dog kennel. And I hope that you think through that in your own. If a 40-dog kennel was positioned next to my home, how would I feel about it? and when I go to sell it, would that deter future buyers?

[04:27:31] Maybe someone would buy it, but would they pay the same top premium price that they would without the kennel? The other thing that I ask is when it comes to the noise mitigation, I love to see all the options that Mr. Cain has put up there, but I don't see any type of regulation of how consistently they would be used, where they need to be used in order to mitigate the noise.

[04:27:54] It is my assumption that those materials will accumulate in cost and that this effort could become quite costly. He's going into business to make money. I am struggling to figure out if there is even a business case there. And I know there are multiple kennels throughout the county.

[04:28:13] I have dogs. My friends have dogs. We never have a problem finding a place to keep our dogs. We never do. It's not an issue. They take their dogs places. I also have a farm sitter come to my house to watch my dogs. This is something that I don't think the county needs.

[04:28:29] I pray that you would please just consider keeping those trees and the number of dogs that you would put there because that noise is significant, and the cost is going to build up. So I hope that that will be enforced, that you must use those. Thank you. Next speaker, please.

[04:28:48] Thank you. My name is Charles Gurley. I'm a retired gunnery sergeant, 22 years in the Marine Corps. I want to thank each and every one of you that served in the military. Those of you that were police officers and backed the police in the fire department, thank you.

[04:29:12] What Kevin did was remarkable. And he had a year or two to put it together and not tell us a daggone thing about it. We didn't have an audiovisual presentation like he did.

[04:29:29] We didn't have the backing he had. What we do have is about 70, 80, 90 people, residents in the area that absolutely do not want it.

[04:29:45] I do not want it. I try to be the nicest person I can to everybody. I've been on his property. And what I saw, not all of it was really true. That pond is far to the back left of his property.

[04:30:03] Doesn't have anything to do with him. He asked me to come over and put in a garden for him. The property in the back was solid, and it took me a while to till it up. But when I went over on the property, the left-hand side where he's getting ready to put the kennel was wet.

[04:30:24] And I told my wife, I said, damn, I'm glad we didn't buy their property. That stays wet over there. They're going to have a problem. Well, now he's going to put a kennel on it. What he's going to do and how they're going to do the land and fill it in, I have no idea.

[04:30:45] I can't tell you how hurt we are. This is our first home. We went around for two years looking at homes, put together a plan, and had it built 22 years ago.

[04:31:02] This was our first home, our forever home. He's destroying it, everything about it. It was agricultural. It was quiet. It was peaceful. We raise honeybees.

[04:31:19] We have chickens. We have ducks. My poor wife, we've got one duck she loves so much. She bought a big container that we keep out in the yard. Cost a lot of money for it, and I'm like, geez, I don't believe it.

[04:31:39] Had a chicken break its leg. Cost me $150 for X-rays. A $6 chicken. We have a commercial area. We love animals. We take in everything. And all of our cats are feral.

[04:31:57] Thank you so much, and God bless you all. Thank you, sir. Next speaker. Hi, I'm Denise Gurley. I live at 1289 Fleetwood Drive, and we're across from Kevin and Denise.

[04:32:30] And my husband spent 22 years in the Marine Corps, and he suffers from PTSD, and our granddaughter lives with us. And she has, she cannot deal with loud noises.

[04:32:51] It wasn't on. With loud noises, and it causes severe pain. These acoustics that are going to go in, I have no idea how much it's going to mitigate. And, you know, the dogs barking, it's going to continue all the time.

[04:33:14] We got wildlife, and the dogs aren't going to stop. And 40 dogs is different than 2, 5, or even 10 dogs. And then my husband has congestive heart failure, and we just don't need this.

[04:33:40] And I hope you will consider what everybody has said to you, to the board, to reconsider approving this, because our property values are definitely going to go down.

[04:33:58] They're not going to increase. I don't see how anybody who tries to come in to purchase property is going to be willing to spend over a million dollars with a commercial kennel right across from the property.

[04:34:16] But thank you for your time and your consideration. All right, our final speaker. Ma'am, if you want to speak. Hi, good evening.

[04:34:38] My name is May Ling Whiteley. I live across the street from the proposed kennel. I urge you to vote no on Mr. Cain's SUP. The last time a kennel was approved in Prince William County was for the Kellenberger kennel. Despite Kellenberger being in a more appropriate location for a kennel, the planning committee still listed the known strengths and weaknesses on the SUP.

[04:34:56] Oddly, the only weakness this planning committee documented for the Cain's SUP was the emergency response time. I'd like to highlight some of the weaknesses documented in the Kellenberger SUP that the planning committee did not apply to Mr. Cain's, despite the weaknesses being more applicable. Under environmental analysis, for environmental considerations, the planning committee failed to address two major weaknesses in the cane SUP.

[04:35:17] First being the potential for animal waste to flow from the outdoor kennels into Slate Run and RPA. The Kellenberger SUP at least recognized that increased animal waste in the area would be a weakness. Although rainwater runoff from our area of Fleetwood flows directly into Slate Run, the cane SUP does not address animal waste as a weakness at all.

[04:35:36] According to the EPA, just one dog's waist has enough toxins and bacteria to contaminate an entire beach. The second weakness is the frequency and severity of flooding that we get on Fleetwood Drive. Mr. Kane's proposal to pave over 15,000 square feet of permeable ground will only worsen the conditions for flooding.

[04:35:54] Under construction plans, one of the strengths, you're kind of addressing this already, but I'm going to read it. One of the strengths of the Kelling Butter SGP was the landscape buffering because the kennel would be over 1,000 feet from the frontage road and would share the existing driveway.

[04:36:11] The SUP stated the access point would not affect the appearance of Dumfries Road, which would be a strength. However, Mr. Kane's proposal includes tearing down a 30-foot line of trees for the construction of an 11-space parking lot and two office buildings, which, of course, will dramatically change the aesthetics of our community.

[04:36:28] Again, a weakness not listed in the Kane SUP. Under transportation analysis, a weakness listed in the Kellenberger SUP was the kennel would generate commercial traffic in a non-commercial area. Despite Mr. Cain's proposal including breeding, grooming, and two and a half times as many training sessions as a Kellenberger kennel, this too was not listed as a weakness.

[04:36:48] Under community input, with the Kellenberger SUP, there were no objections because there's no neighbors. They are surrounded by three sides of deep Prince William County forest and sits across from 234, the animal shelter, and the landfill. Mr. Cain's proposal is to construct his kennel in the middle of multiple residences.

[04:37:06] most of whom strongly oppose this SUP. Our homes are our number one asset, and approval of this kennel would greatly diminish their value and or enjoyment of our quiet neighborhood. This business venture belongs on either a larger forested acreage or commercial property, not in the front yard of a residential area.

[04:37:24] Once again, I urge you to vote no. If you have any questions what the other counties are doing, feel free to ask because I've very well researched. Thank you. Thank you so very much. I wanted to see, does anyone in Aldeus have any additional questions based on that for the applicant, or does the applicant want to respond, applicant or staff, all right?

[04:37:46] So in response to Mr. Gurley, I did go to, I think, 13 or 14 abating houses within the 500-feet property. I spoke to every one of them, and I presented the plan pretty much like I have here, pictures of what the kennel would look like, the positioning of it.

[04:38:07] And, like I said, pretty much the same, not exactly the same, but a lot of the same material. It was in that when I discussed it with all of the 13 others. At the time when I spoke to Mr. Gurley, it was, I think, two weeks prior to the planning commission. It was on his birthday because I was interrupting them leaving with their grandchildren.

[04:38:27] And he said he had some concerns to it, and I spoke to him about it. Again, we've known each other for, I don't know, 25, 30 years. We used to bowl together and everything. daughter would go ride his horses when she was younger. And he shook my hand and told me to my face, you know, you won me over and, you know, I'm good with it. And it wasn't until the Planning Commission hearing that he had changed. And even he said, you know, I probably lost a friend after 30 years. Well, the main thing was you shook my hand. You said you didn't have any problems and you were supportive. And it was when you spoke to your neighbors and got on board with some information that they were passing on, such as being a pit bull kennel and so forth, that he

[04:39:05] changed his mind, didn't want to cause trouble with theirs. So I did go, my point is, I did go to each and every one of the house that were within 500 feet of the property. And I spoke to each and every one of them. So it isn't like I didn't go out to them. I did. And that's an affidavit and such. As for the property values, I just showed you on my presentation that a household on January 10th, right across from House Juris, which is 1.8 hours away from my place for what 1.3 or 1.4 million dollars i think it was built for 500 000 so those people built that

[04:39:39] house or bought that house knowing the kennel was within 600 feet of them so again the property values i don't really think it affected land use uh applications uh it's all subjective and may or may not i mean there are other factors stock you know that affect housing prices um as opposed to being a commercial, like I said, I showed the pictures. They're not commercial buildings.

[04:40:03] They are pretty much the same type that you would find in the barns. I know, like I said, a few of you have come out and been through the property and seen the area and the pictures and seen the other buildings. They're smaller than my neighbor's garage. I think it's almost 25, 30 feet by, I don't know, 75 feet. And it's, you know, 30 feet tall. So, I mean, it is conducive and cohesive with the rest of them uh the whitley's i believe have 15 or 18 other buildings two buildings uh it would equal my whole kennel footprint of 4 700 feet just two of their 18

[04:40:41] buildings i go over you know three four times of my footprint so we talk about water runoff it kind of kind of you know yay for me not for thee um so i kind of i take issue to that We've already addressed trying to keep the view line.

[04:40:59] There are five other kennels within five miles, so I'm not setting a precedent. This is something that's already been going on in Prince William County since, I don't know, 1999, I think, was the first one, and Kellenberg being the latest one, I think, was in 2006. And things change in almost 20 years from when the Kellenberg kennel was applied for to when I'm applying.

[04:41:21] So, again, I'm offering a business that maybe they're always full. And as they say, I look for the 40 dogs for the summertime and the holidays to kind of offset the price, you know, the income that I'm not going to have during the school season and the winter.

[04:41:36] Not very many people travel. So to say 40 dogs, 356 days a year, it's not going to happen in all likelihood. You know, I can speculate just like they're speculating on the other things. You know, I would love to have 40, you know, as a business owner.

[04:41:54] But, again, it is a business that is allowed. It is zoned properly. There are others. So, again, to address those issues. That's how I would come up on that. Thank you, Alex.

[04:42:10] I don't know if you had anything else. Just really quick. So, you know, I heard the public testimony and, you know, some of the biggest issues were the noise. The applicant is providing noise mitigation, but in addition to that, we have the noise ordinance in place.

[04:42:29] So if they go above that, the police can come out or neighborhood services, we can make sure that that gets addressed appropriately. But if the materials do their job, then this should not be a problem.

[04:42:48] With the value of properties, I'm not an appraiser. I just look at things from, you know, the planning standpoint of, you know, the comp plan and the zoning ordinance. And, again, as I expressed earlier, this is allowed via SUP for property zoned A1.

[04:43:04] And with the traffic, we did have our transportation department actually go out there. They took counts of the area. And, you know, it didn't rise to a level of major concern.

[04:43:22] But, you know, I hear several of the residents have brought that up as an issue. But just wanted to let you know that our Transportation Department did their due diligence by going out there and verifying the traffic counts and any potential safety issues.

[04:43:39] Thank you. Thank you. Supervisor Brody? Thank you, Madam Chair. But before I ask anything, I think there's, is there someone online for the public hearing? All right. Hold on. Let's do the online. We've got one person. One person? Okay. I didn't think that. Oh, okay.

[04:43:57] Okay. we ready to go yes your speaker is amanda whitley okay thank you miss whitley miss whitley are you there yes can you hear me barely can you turn your your volume up a little bit yes ma'am how's this it's getting better one more okay there you go okay um whenever you guys are ready i'll i'll go

[04:44:36] ahead oh please proceed okay i'm amanda whitley my family has lived in the brunsville district since 2006. My reservations are not only the impacts of the proposed kennel, but also procedural concerns throughout its approval process. Unfortunately, the planning commission hearing did not result in specific requirements for Mr. Kane to meet, but rather provided him vague guidelines, which I will get into, that failed to protect the welfare of the surrounding neighbors.

[04:45:03] The first issue is the environmental assessment, which concluded the several thousand square feet required for the parking lot and kennels foundation will have zero impact on rainwater runoff and flooding on Fleetwood Drive. The Prince William County Emergency Management System shows that in the 350 square miles of the county, Fleetwood is listed as number four for number of closings due to flooding and number one for water rescues. Mr. Kane's plans are to pave over 15,000 square feet of grassland, inevitably worsening the severity of flooding in our area. It was also assessed that construction of his kennel at the front of his property would have no impact on

[04:45:39] neighbor's property values. I challenged that assessment. Like our neighbor said, pick two identical homes, but one is within feet of 40 barking dogs. Which one would you choose? In the planning hearing, Mr. Pinn gained approval from the committee by stating he would be lucky to even have 10 dogs in his kennel. He also told several neighbors he will only have 10 dogs, including my parents, when he was trying to garner support. If the impacts of the proposal have to be downplayed in order to get support, doesn't that demonstrate that even he recognizes it wouldn't be favored by the community? Additionally, if he's received approval from the planning committee by claiming

[04:46:13] he will only have 10 dogs, why approve a kennel that allows dogs at four times that capacity? As a reminder, Chapter 14, Section 4 of the Noise Ordinance states, the maximum decibels for daytime hours in residential areas is 60, when measured not from our homes, but from his property line. The decibels of one dog's bark is measured to be between 60 and 110. But the proposal is not for one dog. It is for 40 dogs to remain outdoors during all daylight hours in an area with open fields where sound carries far. There has been no sufficient mitigation included in the proposal to demonstrate that 40 or even 10 dogs being kept

[04:46:52] outside will not exceed these requirements. The rejection of the cane kennel is not a matter of my opinion, but a matter of our elected officials enforcing the standards outlined in the Code of ordinances chapters 14 and 32 both which include several provisions that this sup does not abide by i ask that you vote in the best interest of the community and reject this proposal thank you thank you miss whitley all right now i'm officially closing the public hearing because i did not do that earlier all right thank you so very much we've heard from you know the applicant again

[04:47:27] i think did anyone have any other questions on the dais madam chair yes supervisor bodie yeah Thank you. Yeah, sorry, I just wanted to make sure we heard from the, yeah. I just had a couple questions, and it's based on things that the Whiteleys have brought up and some other folks as well. Let's talk a minute about the noise mitigation.

[04:47:45] You did show us the fencing and some of the other materials you'll be using. Are you planning to use all those at once, or are you planning to sort of step it up, depending on the noise? As it's built. The fencing and the buildings, so these buildings are from the dog collection, or dog kennel collection.

[04:48:03] up in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. I've already spoke with them and along with the Custa fence, and it's going to be built that the Custa block material will be built into the kennels and already sound absorbed inside before they put. So yeah, that will be there. The fencing, the Custa fencing will be put on the outside of all the outside perimeter fencing. If it need be, then we would go and look at those panels that they use in industrial type plants.

[04:48:31] But, you know, I don't know that we'll need to go that far. If we need to, that would be something else we would look at. There was also one I didn't pull in an example where it was canine trainers for, I forget what law enforcement, but they have inside the facility, it's actually a 60 or 80 dog facility where all 80 are in.

[04:48:54] And you've got to remember, the kennel I'm proposing, there will be 12, 12, and 16 at max capacity, separated by other buildings and also fencing. So, again, that sound mitigation does help. And it's as a horseshoe shape, so it's not directly towards their house, so there's also that mitigation.

[04:49:14] Not taking the tree line down, if we can do that, that helps the sight lines and the mitigation. So, yeah, and, again, there are kennels. I can't stress, there's five of them in the area already. I'm not setting a precedent. Precedence has already been set and done.

[04:49:32] And I'm going above and beyond any of those that already don't even have just to help with the neighbors and the peace of mind on there. You know, this is a business I'm trying to run myself and my livelihood and my family as well to provide for, you know.

[04:49:48] And, you know, it's a small business that I'm looking to provide for the community as well. So I just appreciate it because I wanted clarity on that because, like I said, you showed us a wide variety of things. It sounds like, like you said, the interior building mitigation should be built in the building. It sounds like you're going to at least do the fence alongside that.

[04:50:04] And you may add the paneling later and some other mitigations. So it's not a one and done. If you see that as this builds out and you start getting dogs into the kennel and there is a noise issue, which you would obviously work with your neighbors on, you would add additional mitigations as time went on.

[04:50:20] It wasn't a static thing is what I'm hearing. Correct. Appreciate that. My only other question is about, a lot of folks brought up the runoff. So, yeah, there's going to be animals there. There's going to be dogs you're going to have to clean up. So it's addressed in the plan and during the planning commission. So the feces will be double bagged, collected and double bagged.

[04:50:38] It's not going to be hosed off into the surrounding or flushed down the septic. No, because you can't do that. It'll be just like all the other kennels, you know, bagged, double bagged, placed out for weekly pickup and trash. Now, the urine and stuff will be, it will be, but the kennels are going to be on gravel pads.

[04:50:58] The kennels aren't going to be on the cement pads, so you have the percolation on there. We'll use rescue, which is environmentally safe disinfectant that almost every kennel uses. It's safe for the pets and the environment. It's called rescue. And the parking lot area, that's going to be dry.

[04:51:19] It's not going to be, again, paved. It's going to be gravel, so you have the percolation and stuff going through there. Again, my footprint is 4,700 square feet. I have neighbors, again, that have well over 20,000, 30,000 square feet of extra building space, not just their house, but their buildings as well.

[04:51:37] So, I mean, it isn't going above what's already there. It's consistent with already the others in the area and actually below most. But there, again, I can't stress enough that I'm not setting a new precedence. This is something that we do have already five in, and they're all A1, as I showed the locations.

[04:51:58] Dumfries Road is the only one that's kind of next to a residential area. We're agricultural, so. Thank you. Thank you. Anyone else? Madam Chair. Supervisor, yes, Supervisor Bailey. Thank you. Thank you very much. Sir, the gentleman mentioned about the wet part of the land around your house.

[04:52:20] In the back portion, is it correct? It does. Will that impact this project at all environmentally? No, because that's why I'm having it in the front. The back was what permeates the wetness and the bogginess. Up front, we're not in a 100-foot flood zone or anything like that.

[04:52:37] So I've not had an issue where I get bogged down mowing and stuff. I mean, it's been wet now. I've let it go because I was out of town. The grass is high. I'm not bogged down or anything or spinning tires or anything. In the back, I've had my neighbor Justin actually pull me and my truck and my mower out with his tractor because it got bogged down back there.

[04:53:00] So in the front, and that's why we, that place right there used to be used from my understanding was because it's irrigated for and was used originally as an adult league soccer field by the original builders or whatever. We're like the third owners of the property.

[04:53:15] But the original owners, we're told, used that as an adult league soccer where we have planned for the parking lot area. This is all much pretty well already just grown over gravel because they use this as their parking lot. You kind of almost see the shape of the soccer field.

[04:53:31] You can see the lines and stuff. It's still almost there. So that's why you look back here, this runoff here into the pond, this does say saturated. And even one of the things they liked is I didn't have to take down any trees here.

[04:53:47] I would have to take down a bunch of trees. This is actually our septic field up in here, the reserve septic field, so there's nothing I can put there. Here, these neighbors here, they like to shoot a lot, like they said. There is a lot, and I have neighbors throughout, but they especially. So if I even try to put it back here, how am I going to get vehicles back, you know, clients back?

[04:54:07] I would have to take out their mailbox. The Whitley's mailbox is right here on this side of the street to get back to a separate entrance because I can't go through here. This is my septic field. Mr. Gurley talked about doing the garden.

[04:54:24] It was this area and this area. It wasn't in the back or over here. These were the two areas. This is where I put a new septic system in, easy treat, instead of percolating. But anyhow, that's why, again, the septic field is back here, but septic system and runs back through there.

[04:54:43] That's why we, again, looking through and going through when we started this, this was one of the things that even environmental services ruled out. This stays dry. Like I said, it was used for a soccer field. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.

[04:55:00] Supervisor Angry. Thank you, Madam Chair. just real quick because i think if i heard everything correct and i've talked to a lot of the citizens i've got your presentation i know supervisor gordon's been working on this but i always try to find what's the real issue so one is i think some folks don't want it but the other one is simply the fact that it's in the front yard but you just talked about why it can't be behind that pond or stormwater or whatever yes behind it but is that as far back as you can push I just want to ask that question.

[04:55:32] Well, yeah, because I have to have a separate septic system for, you know, for the office, what they call an office building. Again, it's going to look like a barn, but we'll take in client, you know, we'll still have a washer and dryer to clean, you know, towels and stuff, sink and everything.

[04:55:50] So we'll have, and I have to have two bathrooms in there, according to, and for the commercial. so this will be a septic a new septic field which i have already had scs out there and they've already percolated it and said everything is well and good that's why i can't push it back further is they're going to have the drain field the second drain field thank you for that because i mean you know we we try to mitigate concerns and win win out of this and you know i guess what you're showing me is literally the only place you can put it and i just want to say because you know our planning office our planning a lot of hours with commissioners uh the fact i mean you know

[04:56:26] They're the experts, and they know what they're saying and doing, and there's literally no way we can not kind of go through this. But I just want to make sure that if that's as far as you can push that back, then, I mean, we're kind of at a stalemate here.

[04:56:42] So thanks. All right. I don't have anyone else. Oh, Supervisor Gordy. You snuck in there. Thank you, Madam Chair. I was just waiting on my colleagues to have an opportunity to speak. You know, as someone who lives in Noakesville and lives on a 10-acre lot, there's a couple of things that I know.

[04:57:03] And first of all, I want to thank all the community members who came out to share their perspectives. And any time that there's a change like this, I know it brings concerns. I live next to Noakesville Park. I hear soccer games going off with loudspeakers every Sunday. So I get the noise.

[04:57:20] And also, I have a neighbor who's got a barking dog who doesn't stop barking. So, but that dog disappeared somehow. I had nothing to do with it. Just to be clear.

[04:57:39] Yeah, the spotted lanternflies are another topic. But here's something that I know. I could go build a 50 by 50 barn on my property right now without any review by the county, except for the zoning review, as long as it's 15 feet off my property line.

[04:58:00] I could go cut down every single tree on my property if I wanted to. In A1, there is tremendous, tremendous freedom with your property. As you said, your neighbors shoot on their properties.

[04:58:15] My neighbors shoot on their properties. I shoot on my property. There are things that we do in Noakesville that you can't do anywhere else in the county. Well, if they are, it's causing a whole lot of other problems. And so, you know, having to keep in mind what I can do by right on a property as it relates to buildings, because you could literally go build a 50 by 50 building today without any approval by this board.

[04:58:44] And it could be 60 feet high. In fact, you drive all over in Oaksville and you'll see facilities that are that size. And so, you know, I hear the concerns of the community, but I also recognize what can be done already.

[04:59:04] In this situation, we're asking to approve a special use permit for an activity that is allowed in our ordinance by special use permit in the A1 zoning. Our ordinances give us our guidance.

[04:59:19] They give us our pathway forward on what does and does work in certain areas and what doesn't. And usually in a case like this, you know, when we identify the concerns, we identify the things that need to be mitigated.

[04:59:36] We leave it up to the applicant to try to go and seek those mitigations. Now, I will tell you, because of the data centers, I know more about noise than I ever thought I'd ever want to know. But I've also done a lot of work inside buildings for churches to deal with acoustical issues.

[04:59:53] And so I know a little bit more about noise than the average person. And the fact that your building is a U-shape away from the people, your neighbors across the street, is going to direct most of that noise in the opposite direction toward the high school. And then the mitigation that you have is even going to further stop that noise as it leaves your property.

[05:00:15] Now, I will tell you, and this is the warning for you, that noise ordinance says a dog that barks once a minute for 10 minutes is a violation of noise ordinance. It doesn't matter what the decibel level is, from 50 feet away. So that's a burden that you're going to have to deal with and literally could result in your business being shut down if you cannot keep from violating the noise ordinance.

[05:00:42] And you could be shut down. So there's a big investment here on your part that could be at risk if you do not mitigate this noise, and you could be shut down. So in terms of the ingress and egress, in the motion, it will be to move it to preserve the trees along the frontage, Make the commercial entrance where your residential entrance is and then come off of that.

[05:01:16] I will also like to put into the motion that your parking lot will be gravel so that that will be done as part of the motion. Because I also want to protect the permeability of this area.

[05:01:33] Our water table is four feet low right now. We've got to start, we've got to find ways to stop non-permeable development in some of these critical areas where people are living on wells. So I will stop there for now unless anybody has any other questions, Madam Chair.

[05:01:52] I'd like to go ahead and get a motion. Madam Chair, I'd like a motion to approve Item 8A with the following conditions. That the ingress be moved to the residential ingress, and that converted to a commercial entrance and a driveway coming from the residential driveway to the facility, as well as the parking lot be maintained as a gravel parking lot.

[05:02:26] Second. All right, thank you. Is there any discussion on this? I do. All right. My computer's back up. You can start pressing or go back. Your computer's working again? Yes, no. Did you see it come back?

[05:02:42] No, okay. All right, go. Thank you, Madam Chair. As people in town of Haymarket are well aware, this isn't my first kennel rodeo. I've got some grave concerns. I don't know that I'm going to hang it up, but I'm going to be watching.

[05:03:04] I have an issue with it being at the front of the property. I understand your constraints, but I don't think that's a precedent that we really want to set. That concerns me. I have heard the promises of acoustic materials dampening the noise so that you can't hear the animals inside of the facility.

[05:03:24] I know that doesn't work. First-hand experience with it. I sit on the front porch of a restaurant about 150 feet, 200 feet from one, and even over the noise of the restaurant, you can hear the dogs at night inside the building.

[05:03:42] I don't know that I have enough to support denial of it. I am happy that the... The trees are going to be maintained, and that will somewhat further limit the noise issue and the visual impact.

[05:03:59] But that's going to be incumbent on VDOT approving that modified commercial entrance at your driveway. If that doesn't happen, I'm not sure where we stand if VDOT insists on a separate commercial entrance that would require a 30-foot clearing at the street.

[05:04:25] And Madam Chair, I'm going to probably sit this one out, but I will be watching it closely. All right. Thank you. I just have a few things I want to add. First, we do have a process. When we have applications, they are reviewed by our staff.

[05:04:42] You know, this also went before the Planning Commission before it went to us. And I visited the site. I'm one of the people who went out because I want to understand. And sometimes I think it's best to see it yourself. So I have gone on seeing the site, but I've also driven by the area a couple times.

[05:04:59] just so I can understand what's going on here. For me, the saddest thing about this case, really, it seems like it's neighbor versus neighbor. And, you know, Mr. Kane, you had mentioned that, you know, you have a neighbor, I guess it's Mr. Gurley, that that relationship is over. And that for me is the saddest part of this case. I understand the fear. I understand that people are concerned about their homes and their property values. I 100% understand that. I also wonder if this is a little bit about aesthetics versus compatible use. This is a rural area. It

[05:05:37] is a rural area. It is commercial in that it is designed to make money, but it's not on par, for example, with the animal shelter. It's not that type of facility. And I do appreciate, sir, the effort that you've put into this, into thinking about this, but I do want to reiterate this as a process. You know, I hope that fences can be mended. I hope that neighbors, I hope that you are a good neighbor. I hope that neighbors come to see that this is not going to be worst case scenario, that there will be proper mitigation. And if there isn't, you know,

[05:06:17] there are options. I will vote in favor of this. But again, for me, the thing that bothers me is the neighbors, that that relationship has been destroyed. With that, Supervisor Rear.

[05:06:33] Thank you, Madam Chair. I actually have a question for the county attorney. I know in many jurisdictions, and in this jurisdiction, we have put renewal timeframes on SGPs. Is that still an option in this case? I'm not sure if we've done it.

[05:06:53] Recently? Recently. But we still have that provision within our authority to review on an annual basis? I defer to planning on that. Supervisor Weir, I don't recall a case recently that we've done where we've included that.

[05:07:12] That's not the question. The question is, do we still have the authority? So I'm really not sure about that. Well, here comes, I'll let Mr. McKittigan answer that. I know we have in the past.

[05:07:31] It's been a long time since we've put term limits on it. Well, renewal requirements or review requirements. They will come back and get renewed in so many years. So it has been done in the past. So I don't think there's anything changed in the law that would suddenly we can't do it.

[05:07:52] I don't believe so either. On that note, Supervisor Gordy, would you entertain a friendly amendment for a re-review at one year from beginning of operations?

[05:08:14] Otherwise, we'll be reviewing it before it even gets built. Well, yeah, and that's the concern that I have. But the county attorney had one question I want to make sure that we get answered first. With renewals and re-reviews, I don't know if planning has any kind of set fee schedule on that and when we've applied it to one applicant versus another.

[05:08:36] So I'd like an opportunity to review that and come back instead of just ad hoc doing it. I wish that this had come to us sooner and we could have looked into it to make sure that we're applying it consistently moving forward. I apologize. I'm not sure. I'm going to have to assume that staff or the county regs or something has some manner of process in place.

[05:09:01] Otherwise, we couldn't have done it in the past. I hear where you're going. This feels for me, again, because, you know, they don't always have the information, correct information at their fingertips. I'm a little hesitant about speculating and about talking about something that's been done without proper legal review.

[05:09:24] I understand, I appreciate what you're getting at, is how do we make sure that it is operating in the confines of the community? I respect that. I feel that if they are not doing that, that we have other options to address that.

[05:09:41] That's where I fall. Madam Chair, I don't want to be argumentative. I was going to say with the county attorney. If there's concerns, a complaint could always be made to property code enforcement if there's been a violation of the SUP. We work on a complaint basis.

[05:09:59] Inspectors will go out to see whether or not the SEP is in compliance. I don't mean to be argumentative. Well, maybe I do. You do. That's okay.

[05:10:15] It was kind of a rhetorical question on my part to begin with. I know we have the authority to do it. Now, whether we have guidelines in place or a fee schedule, that's not my problem. Our responsibility is to apply the ordinances as needed and additional requirements, and that is an option under an SUP.

[05:10:38] I am willing to go to the point that we don't require the re-review until a year after the operation begins, because I don't think that's fair to the applicant. But I would like to see it come in a year after operations to see where the noise stands, where the environmental stands, where the aesthetics stand, what is the impact of it being at the front of the property, is there a traffic issue.

[05:11:01] So again, I would make my request for a friendly amendment. I appreciate everything in that perspective, Supervisor Weir. This is the first time I've heard of this type of thing, and I'm sorry, this is just the first time I'm hearing of it.

[05:11:21] I don't have enough information to say that this is exactly the route that I want to take. What I do know is that, I mean, if we applied this, I mean, we could apply this to every single application that comes before this board that someone questions.

[05:11:37] um and and i think that i think we have to have a very special set of circumstances um we haven't done this to any other kennel we haven't done it to a daycare center uh you know home daycare we haven't done it to other home businesses and and i'm i i'm a little concerned that we're putting a massive burden on people who don't have the deep pockets, the types of companies that have the deep pockets,

[05:12:15] to be able to reapply and resubmit an application. What I do know is we have ordinances and laws in place to protect our community. We have a noise ordinance to protect the neighbors. We have the proffers, which must be adhered to by the applicant and are enforceable by zoning.

[05:12:36] So anything that is not done in accordance with the SUP, the county already has the wherewithal to stop operations based upon those requirements that the applicant has agreed to.

[05:12:52] So I'm not inclined to support that motion, just given the lack of knowledge and information on that topic. And maybe that's something that we need to learn more about as a board. Anything else, Supervisor?

[05:13:12] Madam Chair, like I said, the question was somewhat rhetorical on my part because I knew the answer. I've actually issued those before, even to a church school, mandating that they come in every year because there were such concerns about what the impacts would be on the neighboring properties i'm not going to fight this anymore however i would like staff to come up to come to us with a report on what our options are on annual biannual or whatever term re-review of sups because just because we haven't been doing it doesn't mean we've been doing it right and that we haven't done it perhaps speaks to

[05:13:51] how we haven't been doing it right and some sups have become problematic over the years uh and scp is that is just that and the statute to my understanding allows us to re-review it to deal with circumstances that appear after construction and after operation begins so i'll get off my soapbox and i am open to learning more about this and to see what our options are but with that i don't see anyone else in the queue so let's go ahead and take our vote motion passes

[05:14:27] unanimously supervisor weir abstaining from vote and supervisor vega absent from vote all right Thank you so very much. We are now going to move on to 13B. I'm sorry. 13B, so that is the rezoning from Manassas Mall mixed use.

[05:14:47] If the applicant can come up and speak. Good evening, Chair Jefferson and members of the board. Mike Vanderpool with Vanderpool-Prosk and Ashanian appearing for the applicant. I'm sorry, you're a little hard to hear.

[05:15:04] I know there's a way to adjust the podium. You can raise it. Is that any better? Yes. Okay, thank you for that. Just to repeat, Mike Vanderpool from Vanderpool-Prosk.

[05:15:21] a little more a little more yeah a little more and lean in lean in all right i will yes yes all right i will raise my voice and apologize in advance for doing so mike vanderpool from vanderpool prostitutes appearing on behalf of the applicant with me tonight are allison greenfield who is a principal with lionheart who is the parent company for this project colin carby who's the director of development james malore with arcadis which is one of the top 10 architectural

[05:15:55] firms in the world, and the architect for this project, Kayla Ord, who is the lead traffic engineer, and Peter Reinach from VICA, the civil engineer. I want to start by thanking the staff. This was a project that brought a lot of new things to them to review, and I think they did a very thorough job, and we worked closely with them, and we appreciate all of the work that they have done.

[05:16:21] And we're pleased to have a recommendation, a unanimous recommendation of approval from the Planning Commission, and also a recommendation of approval from the staff. At the outset, I think this is a very unique and exciting project. It's a case about positive change, and it's a case about the future of Prince William County. This large, truly, truly mixed-use project is going to bring new housing options. It is transit-oriented, and it's already a transfer station. It'll provide a focus on walkability. It's a move away from Euclidean zoning that is enabled by multiple

[05:16:59] individual vehicles and lots and lots of parking. And the two things most important I think about this project are, number one, it will help jumpstart the Sudley Road Redevelopment Corridor, bringing needed change to the area. And secondly, it will provide a sense of place. A sense of place not only for the residents that are going to live there, the businesses that are going to be occupying there, but I think a sense of place for Western Prince William County, to be able to have a place they can identify with. In the old days, that used to be just a standalone mall, but that's not the case anymore. And so we need to find that sense of place, that center of community, and this

[05:17:38] can, I think, provide it. So with that, I'd like to turn to the PowerPoint. Lionheart Capital, first of all, in order to do a project like this, you have to have what I call as a pioneer, someone who has the ability and the wherewithal in order to be able to go into a market and do what has not been done before. It involves enormous risk. It involves the need for a great deal of expertise and a great deal of experience, and Lionheart has that. They've traded and transacted in all of their major classes. I'm going to show you on the next slide, a couple of slides, some of the

[05:18:16] things they've done. This one on the left is particularly interesting. They acquired an old hospital that had floors that were built at different levels as the project as it was expanded and they took that and converted it into ritz carlton apartments very difficult project but well done you can see some other projects that they've done on there the next slide will show a couple projects that are more germane one the lakeside mall in sterling heights that's a redevelopment project just outside of detroit about i think 30 30 minutes or so and that is

[05:18:52] being done in conjunction with the local and state government to change that mall and then there's also one that they're working on in Indiana that is a former mall as well so they have experience with this particular type of situation which is again critically important the next slide gives you a little bit more detail on what's going on in Michigan there the mall is being removed But there's a focus on creating, again, this sense of place and creating new housing opportunities, which is exactly what's being proposed here.

[05:19:26] If we look at where we're at today, one of the things that strikes me about this every time I look at it is how large the parking fields are and how devoid they are of anything green. And it's basically a testament to the way development was done in the 1960s.

[05:19:46] And that's what we have today, a 1960s antiquated situation. Now, the environment has changed a lot since the mall was built. Several things. We're much more aware now of the fact that the old way of doing things, which is you work here, you live over there, and you shop somewhere else, isn't cutting it anymore with our environment and our sustainability.

[05:20:13] We've got to have an ability to be able to reduce the number of vehicle trips, And that's why we're moving away from Euclidean zoning to the mixed use, which is what this project is all about. Birth rates are declining, marriages are being postponed, and so the demand for rental units is skyrocketing.

[05:20:33] I also read a story, which I'll mention a little bit later on. It was actually a scientific study that talked about the fact that rental units now are becoming more and more attractive for retired individuals who want to sell their homes, and also for people who want to move from place to place.

[05:20:51] I personally know a couple that rent, and they move every three years to a different city, because for them experiencing the United States, that's a way to do it. And so we're seeing a shift with a lot of the younger folks, especially in terms of home ownership, partially due to the cost, but partially due to a lot of other factors.

[05:21:13] Very interesting statistic. Grace Hill, who's a consulting firm, their studies show that 52% of renters work from home. Again, a tremendous shift where we used to segregate work from home. Well, now home is work. It's the place where we work.

[05:21:29] So in order to gain some distance from work, what we're seeing in the marketplace is two-bedroom units are being occupied, but the second bedroom is not being used as a bedroom. It's being used as an office. People don't want to eat lunch, dinner at the office table, so to speak, which is also their kitchen table.

[05:21:48] And then we also have the big change from on-demand mobility. Uber, Lyft, and all of the delivery services have completely changed the way people live and work. And I think there's even more focus on this with young people. I say that when I want to go someplace, my first thought is I pick up my car keys.

[05:22:05] When my granddaughters want to go someplace, they pick up the phone and call Uber Because they don't want to worry about parking, they don't want to worry about insurance, they don't want to worry about paying for gas. And so it's just a big shift in the mindset of how people are moving around the country and the community.

[05:22:23] These are part of the changing attitudes. You can see the title of this, Not Quite the American Dream, Renting is Becoming a Better Deal, Even if You're Wealthy or a Retiree. Again, it's part of that shift. And the second study that was done by Deloitte indicates that there's a reason for this is that people are saying, I don't want all the expense and I don't want all the responsibility of maintaining a house.

[05:22:48] I want to spend my time doing things other than mowing the lawn and fixing the plumbing. And so as a result of that, the comment from Mr. Ruby is the phenomenon is a major shift in the economy and how we live, work, and play. So all of these factors are present in our community as well.

[05:23:11] So all of these changes are resulting in the demand for rental housing at every level. We have a shortage. We know we have a shortage at the entry level and at the ultra-low levels. And we know we're doing okay at the mid-levels.

[05:23:29] But what surprised me with this study that was done for you to evaluate the housing in this county was that the person that's making the average wage here is looking at a shortage of about 50% of housing available for them, because there's approximately 1,500 units and over 3,200 households that would live in those units if they were available. And then when you get above 120, it's dramatic, fewer than 1,000 units and a demand of almost 7,000 units. So what does that do?

[05:24:07] It distorts the marketplace because the people that could afford these units can't find them. So if they're going to live in the community, they're pushing down and going into what I'll call the mid-level, creating artificial demand and artificially increasing rents.

[05:24:22] And then that continues all the way down through the whole spectrum of housing. It's what I refer to as rent compression. And so when we look at getting a balanced housing stock in the community, we need to be looking at where our shortages occur.

[05:24:39] And this slide demonstrates very clearly, I think, that there is an extreme shortage at the upper end of the rental market. So the comprehensive plan says that we can utilize certain properties for T6, urban mixed use.

[05:24:56] And I think that's a direct response to the items that I was just speaking about, the factors and the changes in attitude. So what does a T6 look like? Walkable, mixed use, transit oriented, intense, urban, and mixed use. That's what the comprehensive plan says an urban T6 should look like.

[05:25:15] The comprehensive plan also does something very unusual in that it points out specifically this piece of property. Usually we're looking at areas, but the comprehensive plan here has language that speaks to this particular property.

[05:25:33] And it says it needs to be high density. And the second one is really important. Prioritize the redevelopment of the Monaster small site as a calves for further redevelopment. This goes back to what I was talking about. We need a pioneer. We know what's happening in that corridor.

[05:25:50] It's been designated as a redevelopment corridor because we've seen what's happened. We've seen large vacancies in the strip centers that are a product of the 60s and 70s, and we're seeing the type of retail shift to discount as opposed to what I would call more market.

[05:26:06] Lots of reasons for that, including what I call the Amazon effect. But we need to start to turn the ship around in this particular corridor. So how does our case do that?

[05:26:21] Well, we're doing that high-density, doing multi-story, and for that sense of place, we're trying to create an urban village environment. And I'll talk about that a little bit more, and James Miller will join me here. We're providing additional commercial space for startup businesses and people that may want to not have the wherewithal to start at the mall, but want to come in and provide a service for the people that are living there and that can afford to do so.

[05:26:50] We're providing landscape promenades. We're taking asphalt out. We're taking parking spaces out and replacing it with landscaping, with promenades that are oriented for pedestrian use. Parking underneath, structured parking.

[05:27:06] Now, I want to be careful here with this parking underneath. We're not going below ground because, as we all know, there's a quarry across the street. And so you can't go down. So we have to build the parking and the ground level and Astoria above that. And this last point makes this property probably one of the most unique in the entire county from a mixed-use perspective.

[05:27:28] Typically, when you have mixed-use development, you start with retail. I mean, you start with residential in order to create the demand, and then you say, well, retail will follow it, we hope, sometime, maybe one day, but not today.

[05:27:45] This is just the opposite. We have 80 stores here, including a grocery store, a pharmacy, and the Walmart. You can do everything from getting your computer fixed to go play pickleball. And so there's a very, very wide range here. You can literally live, work, and play here without having to get in your car and do many of the chores that we all do on Saturdays and in the evenings.

[05:28:09] So it is ideally situated for adding a residential component and creating a mixed-use development. So we are developing three vacant parcels. We're not displacing any existing housing or any existing commercial. We're adding to the housing stock and to the commercial up to 1,041 and up to 10 stories.

[05:28:31] The Verdant Village, I mentioned, new public amenities, including a park. The mall will remain, but we're going to be, again, converting some of the parking into pedestrian promenades. And that while we'll be actually zoning those parking lots to T6, excuse me, Urban T6, we'll have a proffer that says we're not going to build anything on there until we come back.

[05:28:53] Because frankly, we don't know what that's going to be. It could be condominiums, it could be a medical office building, it could be a hotel. And so what we have committed to is that we have to come back and tell you what we're going to do in the future phases and get your permission to do so so that we can all evaluate the impacts and make sure that they're appropriately mitigated, as we have in this first phase of what will probably be a 10 to 15 year build out when we get through the complete redevelopment of the mall property.

[05:29:24] So here you see it in 3D. Parcel 1 in the upper left-hand corner is going to be the first one that's built, and it will be home to the Vernon Village. You see some small blocks below that, and James Moore will be talking about that more. Parcel 2 backs up to Ashton Avenue, although there's a stormwater manager pond between it and the road.

[05:29:46] We do not own, my client does not own the corner area. And then parcel three backs up to Rixlew. In addition, the Walmart property, the Macy's property, and floor and decor are not part of the zoning.

[05:30:03] However, they are supportive of this rezoning, and they've indicated to us that they would like to move to T6 as well, because they're looking also at the future and what's going to happen. And the T6 gives them some flexibility. Again, they're going to have to come back to give you specifics.

[05:30:21] But for a variety of reasons, they know then that, yes, they're going to be part of this bigger redevelopment, T6. While we're here, the wider green strips, and particularly if you look at the one that runs from Parcel 3 up to the Walmart, that is one of the pedestrian promenades.

[05:30:39] It serves several functions. One, it breaks up the parking lot mass into two smaller quadrants. Secondly, it provides more green area. Third, it provides safe access because now you can go to Walmart and get your groceries and come back to your rental unit on parcel three safely without having to navigate through a parking lot where you have to have your head on a swivel of where cars are coming from.

[05:31:06] And more importantly, I think, or as importantly, it stitches the residential to the mall to help create this sense of an integrated development and not just plopping down some residences along the edges. So this project is future-oriented.

[05:31:27] We're going to create a sense of place. We're going to create a safe pedestrian infrastructure with the promenades and the Rixle Ribbon. We're going to stimulate mass transit because we're putting in an additional bus stop. We're providing additional customers. and we're going to strictly, strictly control parking on this site.

[05:31:46] We're going to respond to a desire for a somewhat different lifestyle than is otherwise available where we can live, work, and play. We're going to create opportunities for new and existing businesses in the Verdant Village. We're going to focus on future transportation in the corridor. We are hoping to kick off a transportation management plan by making a donation and hope that others that come in for rezoning will add to that so that we can begin the process of looking holistically at transportation in this corridor as part of the whole redevelopment and old life.

[05:32:16] And finally, we're setting the stage for future phases where there are potential new housing opportunities such as condominiums as the project moves forward. I'm going to turn it now to James Miller, who is the architect, to explain a little bit more about the project. Thanks, Mike. Good evening.

[05:32:33] So when we started the design for this project, we recognized that we have a really important responsibility to reconnect to people, to create a unique environment that people love to be in. And ultimately, like Mike was saying, And this is going to be a catalyst for change.

[05:32:51] So I'll just help you navigate a little bit. So this is a plan of parcel one, the Verdant Village. The orange and the red boxes are a collection of retail and food and beverage spaces. And then the gray area is the parking behind.

[05:33:07] So you can park conveniently in structured parking and then walk directly out into the heart of the village. We have Ashton Avenue off to the left and then the mall to the south. we're reimagining the entrance and the gateway to Ashton Alley so it becomes a beautiful place to call home and also starts to stimulate that you're entering into a very different environment from the mall today. So in terms of how we reconnect to people and create a really cool unique shopping experience, we've created this collection of courtyards and patios and open

[05:33:45] space and really set the tenants up for success. As we work with tenants across the country, We're familiar with what their needs are. And here we're really focusing on creating an environment that people want to socialize in, to gather, to linger in, and really start to rebuild community.

[05:34:07] So there is a collection of spaces here, and the tenants that we would be hoping to attract are service retail, so that can service the new residences, new-to-market shops. Maybe tenants that are currently in the mall or currently in the area and they're looking for a space that reflects what their brand represents today.

[05:34:32] So here we are. This is a collection. This is a view of an eye level of the new neighborhood. So you can see it's fairly eclectic by design. We've looked to the past to inform the future by introducing pitch-through profiles and porches.

[05:34:49] And we've really worked hard on creating regionally distinctive materials and blending and juxtaposing that with more contemporary finishes and detailing. Here's another view just to help you get a sense of the scale of space.

[05:35:06] You can see it starts to feel very village-like. It's got that human scale aspect to it, an eclecticness to it. And then as your eye gets drawn up, you can see the townhomes, which are two stories built on top of the parking structure. And then an overview of parcel one. So we were just looking at the baseline there in the village, and then the next tier up above are the two-story townhomes, and then the multifamily beyond.

[05:35:32] And we've really been quite thoughtful about how we work with the massing to push and pull, to break up the mass, to layer it back. So you'll really focus on being in a very human-scale environment, but of course the density is behind it. And then we've been thoughtful about modulation and articulation of the facades and the roof lines because we know these are the things that really start to look great over time and create visual interest.

[05:35:58] The materials, like I said, we've worked closely by looking at a lot of precedents to make them regionally distinctive. So you'll find traditional detailing, rustic bricks, and then they're offset with more contemporary whiter finishes. Yeah, that's the overall composition.

[05:36:16] This is a typical example of what you can find on an amenity deck to service the multifamily residential. So this is showing outdoor lawns and barbecue spaces, outdoor pools, spa and fitness patios, and then games rooms as well.

[05:36:34] So each of the land bays or the buildings will have these offerings. The Rixler Ribbon, as Mike was suggesting, saying this is really a strong framework, one that has got a long-term vision to connect the overall evolution of the mall, but in the short term, its role is to really help connect the new development with the mall.

[05:37:02] And so, to do that successfully, we've been thoughtful about making these pathways experiential. So if you're in the mall and you want to connect to the new retail, you can do that through a very lush, soft, experiential environment.

[05:37:18] And we would be designing these spaces to be purposeful for their intent. So there will be areas which are just passive and quiet, and then there will be areas which are appropriately sized for different types of programming throughout the calendar year. But ultimately, we want there to start to be that connection of being more outdoors and then connecting to the new development.

[05:37:42] I'm sorry, we're running. We do have time limits. I'm letting you go a little bit longer, but I want to wrap up soon. We will move through it very quickly now. In terms of transportation, the TIA has indicated there's not going to be an issue here, that there's adequate capacity for this.

[05:38:03] As I said earlier, we hope to jumpstart a transportation management study for this entire quarter, so we're making an initial contribution and hope others will join in and that the county will begin to look at this, again, holistically for the entire quarter to get ahead of the curve with regard to transportation issues.

[05:38:21] Enhancing public transportation, the Comprehensive Plan says the way you do that is development of densities high enough to bring it, otherwise it's not going to come. The study I was referring to earlier from Science Direct says that the successful transit agencies have mixed use, that are compact, and have restrictive parking.

[05:38:41] Those are the elements you have to have in order to have a successful transit agency, particularly in smaller urban areas. I had a conversation with Mr. Paul Stront, who basically said, this is perfect because we already have bus lines there. We already have bus stops there.

[05:38:57] People are used to using it there. There's ability to come into park and use the buses. And so he was quite excited about the fact that this project is moving forward. As I said, we're adding a bus stop. We have bus service to VRE in the hospital, connections to Tyson's in D.C.

[05:39:15] Up and down the corridor, you can get to everything from Northern Virginia Community College down to the VRE. OmniRide is looking at microtransit, and George Mason has a shuttle as well to connect this. School capacity is available at the high school and middle school.

[05:39:32] Innovation was built to provide specifically, that's what the schools represented, and I had a conversation with them, and they confirmed that to provide for overflow at Ellis. And, of course, you know the comprehensive plan says proffers should be based on an adopted CIP project in the area of the rezoning.

[05:39:52] There are no projects in the CIP for this area, and there's a reason for that, which is shown on the next slide. A collapse in enrollment. You can tell the most telling point on this whole slide is today there's a currently in the planning area for this area 378 totally available seats.

[05:40:11] By 2030, that expands to 706 available seats, all due to the decline in enrollment. So what we're seeing here is adequate capacity and no need to add capacity whatsoever in this particular area.

[05:40:30] Affordable dwelling units, the key here is the unique nature of this. It's very expensive to build. The spread between the market rates and the ADU rents make it very difficult to get financing if you have ADU units in it. There is quite a bit of affordability in the area.

[05:40:45] And we're making a contribution to the Housing Trust Fund, even though we're not providing any units. So with that, hopefully I'm back on track time-wise. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have. All right. If there's any questions, y'all, please push play now.

[05:41:06] I guess I don't see anyone coming up. Okay, Supervisor Franklin. Yeah, I just had a couple of questions, and you've approached all of these, but if you can just kind of get a little bit more granular. And I guess we can just start with the last with regards to the types of housing.

[05:41:24] And then we'd love for you to just talk a little bit more about the idea of not providing any affordable units. But if you can just start with the types of housing that you all are looking to provide, I think that's a good starting point. Yes, I think it goes back to the fact that several things.

[05:41:43] One is that there is an extreme shortage at the level that we're talking about, and that is distorting the marketplace and making it even more difficult for individuals to rent at the mid-levels. So this project will help tremendously with regards to that.

[05:42:00] The rents here, what happens is the AMI rents are fixed at this level. It doesn't matter what you're charging. So if you're charging at the mid-level, your AMI is here and your rent is here. If you're charging at this level, you can see the gap is much, much larger, making it very difficult from a lender's perspective to say, if we ever have to foreclose, we're going to have an issue here with cash flow.

[05:42:24] So we're trying to recognize that and at the same time be good citizens and be good parts of the community, and that's why we want to make a contribution to the Housing Trust Fund. Okay, yeah, I mean, obviously we're looking at this today, but, you know, it would be great, I guess, for future projects for you all to really take that into consideration because you're right, There is a shortage of, quite frankly, all housing types.

[05:42:48] But particularly, as we talked about earlier today, it's exasperated when it comes to the affordable type. So just keep that in mind. Yes, ma'am, we will. Yep. And then also, you can just talk a little bit more about the commercial. Obviously, this area is surrounded by commercial, and so this project calls for additional commercial, which I think is great.

[05:43:08] Can you talk about what that could look like? Are we talking retail? Are we talking your doctor's office or what type of commercial? It's really all of the above. I think the key here is twofold. One is it's to provide even more services on site.

[05:43:26] So, for example, if there is, I think, a beauty salon now in the mall, but if that weren't there, someone may say, I want to create a beauty salon and put it in one of these smaller spaces, not in the mall, but I want to serve and be focused very closely on the new residents that are there.

[05:43:43] Someone may say, you know, I want to rent, but even though I have a two-bedroom with a potential office, I've got to get out of here, so I want to rent some space downstairs so that I can have an office downstairs. So it really is going to be the equivalent of B1, which means that anyone that wants to come can come.

[05:44:04] Obviously, we'll be monitoring carefully to make sure that there's appropriate mixes. Yep, that's great. And then on the transportation piece, you mentioned about including an additional bus stop, and I'm assuming you've spoken to OmniRide about that. Yes, and we've worked on the location with them, and they have indicated we're putting it at the location that they've identified where they would like it to be.

[05:44:24] Okay, and I'm assuming it's part of an existing route? Yes, there is a local route, and then there are two routes that are more commuter routes to take you further out um and so that's why it's called a transfer station because you can transfer back and forth among all three of those and the additional bus stop is in anticipation of the fact that a significant number of people from this development will be utilizing mass transit sure we're going to be encouraging that we hope that occurs so we've got to provide them with capacity and very frankly we've got to provide them with frequency and the way you provide with

[05:45:02] frequency is to make sure that you're controlling parking very carefully so that it's not as easy It is to jump in one of three or four cars and drive away. Yeah, and part of that question was really to assess kind of what the cost would be for adding an additional stop.

[05:45:19] But I'm assuming PRTC and your guys are in talks about that. Yes, we've been in conversation with them about that additional stop. Okay, and then lastly, with regards to the Manassas Mall itself, obviously this is a revitalization project.

[05:45:35] and I actually think it's a great redevelopment corridor. And so I'm assuming we're hoping that this will really spur the revitalization of the mall as opposed to the mall really having an impact on this.

[05:45:51] Yes, it will, I think, result in a refreshing of the mall because there will be a lot more customers. I think it will change the brand and the reputation of what the mall is and what it can be. And so I think we're fortunate that we have a mall that is viable and that this will make it even better and also protect it from any future deterioration.

[05:46:18] Supervisor Bailey. Thank you, Madam Chair. I think this is a really extraordinary project, And it speaks to the direction that we need to go in for revitalization because it breathes live, work, and play.

[05:46:37] And so that's very important to this region, but specifically to this corridor. But the interesting thing that I like that you presented was, and if you can expound on this for me a little bit, is the transportation management study that you're going to take forward.

[05:46:56] and i'm interested in that because the same thing happened in fairfax county when i lived there um with the silver line and so what does that look like what are do you have a vision for that i know it's early but i'm just asking because we do have we need multimodal and so that's why i'm asking right i think that what we're saying here is it's likely that this area is going to become much more dense not just this project but the area generally because there's t5 right next to etc. So there's going to be more dents. We know it's going to probably come. We think it's going to be coming in part because of the success of this project. So we need to start planning for

[05:47:35] that. You know, we need to be looking at our road network. Of course, the ULI study, for example, said we know Sudley Road is always going to be car-centered. It's a major arterial. It's not going away. But we have Ashton Avenue, which may be what I call a sister street that becomes more of a pedestrian-oriented type of street as opposed to the other.

[05:47:58] So working with ULI, working with experts, working with your great staff to envision what's going to happen so that this happens in the proper sequence, that we know how we're going to deal with transportation. Obviously, it can't be the private sector that's doing all of this, but what we want to do is jumpstart it.

[05:48:18] I'll give you an example of how this worked many, many years ago. At that time, there was something called a 234 bypass around Manassas. Well, it was called that, but it had been on the books for 20 years and was never built.

[05:48:35] And working with Senator Colgan and Delegate Harry Parrish, we formed a group of the property owners, and we went to VDOT and said, we will donate the right-of-way, but you have to start construction by a certain date.

[05:48:53] If you don't, sorry, you've lost that. So the private sector provided the spark, and then once that spark was lit, lit the flame, then the state and county took over and developed what we now have in terms of the Prince William Parkway.

[05:49:08] So our hope is to set that spark in the same way in this location. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. All right. Supervisor Cordy. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mike, thanks for the presentation tonight, and thanks for all the work you've been doing.

[05:49:27] We've been at this now about four years that we've been in conversation on this application. And I know it's presented our staff with a lot of new concepts that probably have not been dealt with quite a bit in Prince William County.

[05:49:44] And clearly we have an ordinance that, you know, we still need to update the ordinances to come in compliance with the comp plan. And so this one has really been sort of building the car as we're driving it. along this process so thank you uh for your patience as we've worked through this to try to get the all these things uh ironed out um but the project you've brought it and again it gets to the the catalyst for um what is to come um this is an area that clearly needs revitalization

[05:50:19] um and so we can wait until it's either you know blighted out or we can get ahead of it now And so I'm very grateful for this opportunity for us to have a plan that gets ahead of it today and to begin to turn things around.

[05:50:37] As it relates to, we've talked about the transit and the new bus stop. Can you point out where that is going to be on the? Yes, if you see where it says Playground Park, it'll be right in that vicinity.

[05:50:52] I think it's just to the right of that, right in that area. Okay. Yeah, and, you know, the other piece to this is, you know, as we start to look at not just what's happening in the Sudley Corridor, but then we also have the Innovation District, which is also kind of overlapping with this area, but then also goes over to George Mason and even as far down to the airport, and creating those connectivities and those both economically from work, but also just from enjoying the amenities, such as what's happening in innovation with two silos,

[05:51:27] in the expansion there. So, um, creating those connectivities through transit, um, uh, you know, we're looking at the micro transit options, uh, that, that, uh, PRT is already looking at. I know one of the things that we've talked to, and we're going to have to work on this as well, and that's the weekend service, um, you know, the Saturday and Sunday services. Um, and so those are some things that, uh, Mr. Uh, angry, we're going to have to, to work on, um, uh, as, as we move towards this but um the i'm excited because it it does really bring about a new type of

[05:52:03] development um this is an area where you know um we can do vertical development meeting our housing needs without having to spread out all over um to meet a thousand units somewhere else is the the infrastructure costs and the amount of roads and schools and things that would have to be built is just enormous. But we're doing this in a very compact area. And so the other piece that I like is that when we look at a lot of areas that are redevelopment, you literally look at areas that

[05:52:38] get bulldozed, housing gets torn down to replace it, you know, what's basically affordable housing gets torn down for, you know, different housing. This is green space development. Nothing's being lost here nothing's being taken down so um so i appreciate the work that you guys have done on this um and and really trying to transform this area um and look forward to further uh conversations uh through the rest of the evening thank you thank you all right thank you so very much if

[05:53:09] the county can come forward good evening chair jefferson supervisors my name is alex venegas from the planning office and i'm the case planner for the manassas mall mixed use rezoning so uh

[05:53:41] This is a request to rezone 60.56 acres from B1 to our mixed-use zoning district. This is our first case where we're using the mixed-use urban T6. So this is a good learning experience and opportunity to evaluate it so that, therefore, as we move forward and do the zoning, the comprehensive zoning ordinance update, we can see what works and what doesn't and what needs to be refined.

[05:54:11] So the development is for approximately 1,041 multifamily residential units, which is going to be a combination of multifamily townhome development, and approximately 47,000 square feet of commercial buildings, along with waivers and modifications.

[05:54:32] The commercial development that Mr. Vanderpool had mentioned primarily is for service-oriented, like you described, you know, like a dry cleaner so that people can, you know, walk down from their apartment to go do some sort of service-oriented commercial development.

[05:54:52] So the property, as most of you are aware, is along Ashton Avenue, situated between Sudley Road, Ashton Avenue, and Rickslew Lane. If you remember, we did a Sudley, we did a redevelopment corridor as part of our Comprehensive Plan update in 2022, which looked at the Sudley Road corridor and developed certain policies and strategies to enhance the Sudley Road corridor.

[05:55:25] Recently, many of you participated in the ULI TAP meeting where ideas were generated, which eventually leads to the Sudley Road, Sudley small area plan that staff is working towards. Staff is recommending approval for this application.

[05:55:48] So this is the long-range land use map. The property as Mr. Vanderpool mentioned is MU6, which is our highest transect. Next door is MU5. We do have a current application in, but it's We haven't seen much progress on this one.

[05:56:11] And then we have another project across the street along Ashton Avenue, another application in. So, again, the zoning for this area is B1, and they're recommending changing it to mixed-use urban.

[05:56:34] So the mixed-use zoning district was approved back in 2021. This was the ordinance that brought it out. This was envisioned to implement portions of the comprehensive plan that had higher density or were near transit.

[05:56:52] So this was a tool that staff envisioned that would help us implement some of the small area plans. So again, it's in the Sudley Road Redevelopment Corridor. there are specific land use policies associated with it that specifically mention the Manassas Mall site as a catalyst, also to provide a range of housing options to occur along Sudley Road, both including affordable and market rate options. This is the transect. So this is a transect 6,

[05:57:30] falls within the 50 to 100 dwelling units per acre, FAR 2.3. Target building height is 80 to 20 stories. We're not going to see that specifically with this application. We will probably be on the lower end.

[05:57:46] But as time, you know, and we have more transit-oriented development occurring in the county, we can hopefully one day see, you know, higher density around transit to, you know, augment. And this application falls within these parameters.

[05:58:06] Each land, this is overall project summary, land bay one. They're recommending approximately 14,868 square feet of retail, food and beverage, another 14,800.

[05:58:23] So this is a breakdown of each land bay that's associated with the project. and then down here this is the commercial uses that will occur on the property and then the maximum densities associated with the residential component of the application. One of the questions that came up at the planning commission was you know the how it relates to the transit and how people can get to and from. So there are several commuter lots that are approximately 0.56 miles

[05:58:57] up to 3.5 miles away the balls Ford Park and ride we have two VRE stations that are within 2.5 miles and 3.6 miles to the broad run so there's two options and we do have bus routes that go to each one of those in addition we have at the mall currently we have the Metro Express 60 which goes from Manassas Mall to the Tyson's Corner Metro to get people to points north of the subject property.

[05:59:30] We also have the innovation microtransit zone enhancements. That's something that OmniRide's looking at. So these are important things. Right now, the challenge that we have isn't so much the availability to these different locations, it's more of the frequency.

[05:59:51] So that's one of the things that, you know, we hope we can provide more frequency and then on the weekend as well to get people to various destinations, you know, based on if they're going to somewhere else for their work.

[06:00:10] This is the overall site plan. These are the three parcels associated with residential and commercial development. And then parcel four is the existing mall minus Walmart, floor and decor, and Macy's, as well as a few properties up here.

[06:00:31] This was a gas station, and I think there was like a Burger King and a few other in-line retail. So, this is the Manassas mix that Mike Vanderpool had mentioned.

[06:00:52] There's three properties, the Verdant Village, pavilions in the park, and then the Greenway Gateway, which is the Land Bay 3. This is an overview of the phasing of the plan.

[06:01:08] So as Mike had mentioned, Land Bay 1 is going to be the first area of focus, followed by Land Bay 2, Land Bay 3, and then the promenades that he had mentioned. And then Phase 4 will involve these properties, and then 5 and 6 will be other future developments that may occur.

[06:01:37] This is the open space, as you can see. This is creating more opportunities for open space utilizing the parking area with the promenades and the areas around the three land bays. And we broke it down.

[06:01:54] It's required to have 10% open space in the MU6. They're providing 25, 21, and 35 in the different three land bays. This shows the landscaping plan.

[06:02:13] I'm not going to get into the details of that. And these are the various planings that will occur, as well as the promenade areas that were mentioned earlier. And this shows the key for this plan. Mike went through this.

[06:02:33] This is the land bay, the ground floor, what it will look like. And then the podium level that will occur with the residential in this area above the parking and the commercial development. The applicant did provide specifics for the different illustratives and types of items that will occur, the different amenities, as well as the commercial development that will occur in each land bay.

[06:03:01] They did provide architectural sections that show each section where the parking will occur, the different types of units that will occur in each land bay. This is the illustrative of what this would look like along Ashton Alley looking north and then looking from the west and another one along Ashton Alley looking west.

[06:03:30] And staff is recommending approval for this application with proffers dated May 6 for the following reasons that it is consistent with the MU6 urban with the transect 6 designation in the comp plan.

[06:03:48] It's located along and within the Sudley Road redevelopment corridor. It's consistent with the vision of the special planning area. The proposed development will provide a true mixed-use community integrated diverse range of residential units with complementary commercial use.

[06:04:06] This cohesive approach will enhance the existing mall and may serve as a catalyst for further investment along the Sudley Road corridor. And with that, I'll gladly answer any questions. Supervisor Gordy, did you have anything?

[06:04:22] Because you're still in my queue. All right, does anyone have anything? Going once, going twice. All right, we are going to the public hearing. All right, I am going to open the public hearing for item 13B.

[06:04:47] We have two people who are signed up to speak, Kevin Parker and Rachel Ellis, if you can go to the back. And just for the record, please state your name and where you generally reside. You have three minutes to speak. And then we will go on to remote.

[06:05:05] Hello, Kevin Parker, Neabsco District. This looks good. I do believe the lack of affordable units takes away from the purpose to create a vibrant, real, mixed place. Having a wide range of incomes, a diverse community is well known to cultivate the kind of space that is desirable and alive.

[06:05:27] The kind of place that I think the applicant desires to make. Maybe they should add a few super luxury units to balance out. Or an alternative, perhaps obvious compromise would be for the applicant to add affordable housing in exchange for reduced parking with the caveat that those units would be offered without a parking space.

[06:05:48] That should make sense. Someone could come in knowing what they're getting into. They could decide whether they could live without parking. I could see someone who works at the nearby hospital decide this is an arrangement they could live with. Biking, walking to work, having everything for daily needs, and easy biking or walking distance.

[06:06:06] They could end up really preferring it. I agree with the applicant that restricted parking is more likely to succeed. Parking for all units should be unbundled, I think, from the rent. The applicant should also consider bikes more for this.

[06:06:25] In the presentation, they talked about walking and transit and Uber as alternatives to driving without mentioning bikes. Bikes should be considered in the design and planning. The applicant should stay involved in the community advocating for biking infrastructure surrounding the development for their success.

[06:06:46] There should be excellent, pleasant bike connectivity to Old Town Manassas, to the new Innovation Center, and to the shopping centers across from Sudley Boulevard. There should be bike-specific parking, large enough for cargo bikes, maybe electric bike charging as well.

[06:07:09] Other things, I would like to see the roofs well utilized with solar power or green roofs for heat island benefits. They should use also native plants and not the ivy that was mentioned in the planning commissioner's meeting and that was in the pictures.

[06:07:28] Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Parker. Ms. Ellis. Good evening. Rachel Ellis, Gainesville District. I drove 50 minutes to speak here tonight because I'm actually excited about this.

[06:07:46] Like, I love this idea, and I feel like I'm always here saying no, no, no, no. And I'm here to say I support this. I'm asking you to support the rezoning for the Manassas Mall project. I've been a resident of Prince William County since 1979, specifically the Gainesville District.

[06:08:04] My husband and I are both 1993 graduates from Stonewall, which is now Unity Reed. and Manassas Mall was a vibrant, active social spot in my younger years, and the area has slowly been in decline. This area is in need of redevelopment, reinvestment, and mostly to be reimagined, and this project does exactly this. My husband and I both attended the open house at the mall, and he loves it as well. Like, we love it. I've also looked at Lionheart Capital's

[06:08:39] portfolio. They've done some really neat projects, and they're not our usual Prince William County developer. Please give this area a chance at turning the corner in a positive direction. Side story, my husband and I sometimes have different visions of what our dreams of forever housing looks like. I like a yard, trees, grass, and never seeing a neighbor. He loves the idea of being able to walk out the front door and never use a car, walk to grocery stores, eat out, that type of landscape is what sometimes we discuss. Last week, we were able to live in Seattle,

[06:09:19] Washington for a couple days. Everything was walkable. We walked everywhere for shopping, grocery, restaurants, and the housing looked like this project. It was a vertical to get density. And being in Seattle just cemented in my heart and in my soul that this project is needed in manasses. Let's do something different. Let's think outside the box for an area that is desperate to be redeveloped, reinvested in, and reimagined. Please support this rezoning. And also, happy

[06:09:52] birthday, Supervisor Ingrid. How did you ever know? All right. Do we have anyone, Supervisor Bailey? I think so, ma'am. Sure. I think we have two people, if I'm not mistaken. Yes. Shall we begin, please? Yes, we have two speakers. Your first speaker is Jessica Grove. Okay. Hi. Good evening supervisors. I'm Jessica Grove. I live in the Gainesville District, and I would like to also voice my support for this project. I also am a resident of Prince Wayne County and

[06:10:30] went to Stonewall, now Unity Reed, and it was the heyday back then in the 90s, but it has now to be redeveloped and re-plan. I love the idea of being walkable for people who want that type of projects or want that type of living situation um and i also i would ask that we again use native plants as much as possible and i think the first speaker had a wonderful

[06:11:05] idea of making sure that the roofs were used um in a valuable way um i don't know if there is the opportunity to do any sort of gardening up top or um the use of solar is also a good idea so i would just like to voice my support and i hope you approve this project thank you thank you miss grove miss ellis i think you've spoken already i have you on here your next speaker is elena schlossberg oh okay okay thank you so much miss schlossberg please start start miss schlossberg

[06:11:44] okay so now can you hear me sorry i can i can hear you okay so i don't know where jessica was but clearly she was out getting some exercise so good for her um my name is elena schlossberg i I would like five minutes, please. I'm with the Coalition to Protect Prince William County.

[06:12:01] And I, too, am super excited. We have been begging for really great smart growth opportunities. And you are hearing a lot about the three R's, reimagining, reinvesting, and redeveloping.

[06:12:20] And this project hits all three. I had an opportunity many years ago, Kim Hosen suggested I go to a meeting at the Development Services Building because there were going to be developers there.

[06:12:36] And I don't know if anybody here on the board remembers, but we've been through many different iterations of CEC, Community Employment Centers, Centers of Community, MUSB, we've got villages and hamlets and this particular meeting was about musby and i met um a um developer from fairfax and we started talking and i said hey um why don't you guys come to prince william and do something really cool like the mosaic and the mosaic was just under redevelopment and he said because

[06:13:12] prince william county makes it too hard you don't incentivize this kind of redevelopment And yet here we are looking at this project that I hope will come to fruition. All the pictures look really great, but I just want to share that from the community's perspective, we have experienced really pretty pictures that don't come to fruition.

[06:13:35] So I'm happy to hear Rachel did some intel, and apparently this developer does do quality projects. This is an opportunity, an opportunity to see positive change.

[06:13:50] I loved hearing the language. Also, it doesn't hurt that there was a British accent that was super awesome. So I don't know if that just made it more believable. But I can't express enough how happy I am as well to be in agreement with, it sounds like, Supervisor Bailey and Supervisor Franklin.

[06:14:14] And I hope it doesn't scare you away that we all are on the same page. But it's really important to be able to identify projects that have a positive impact on the community that will use the infrastructure that already exists.

[06:14:33] And that's all I have to say. I'm just I'm really excited. I hope that you all vote yes for this project. The Sudley Corridor needs a facelift and to incentivize. You know, my kid, he doesn't want to live on 10 acres. My kid wants to go live in a really cool apartment building with lots of cool stuff to do.

[06:14:51] He doesn't want to have to drive a car. We have to attract a new kind of resident that's interested in living like this, and I'm excited. So thank you all very much, and happy birthday, Supervisor Angry. I'm delighted, Ms. Sloshberg.

[06:15:08] Thank you. It sounds like you're trying to kick your kid out. You have no idea. She's done. I can't hear you anymore. Oh, you know, you're gone. Okay. Five minutes up. Thanks, Madam Chair. We're done. All right. I'm going to go ahead and close the public session.

[06:15:23] See, I can do things right sometimes. All right. I just want to see if the applicant or staff wanted to, you know, respond to anything you've heard. I mean, you don't have to, but you can. I'm just saying you don't have to.

[06:15:42] You can't, but you don't have to. All right. So, no, just two things. We didn't get to the details. We are planning sharrows for the bikes on the road, number one. We're providing bicycle parking in the garages and elsewhere on the project, so we are doing that.

[06:16:00] We have a commitment in the proffers for native landscaping as well. And I don't think I can add anything to what Ms. Schlossberg said, so I'll stop there. All right, Supervisor Gordy, then angry. Oh, Tanya, oh, come on, what you got? What you got? It's getting late.

[06:16:18] Yes, Tanya Washington, planning director. I often don't necessarily step up to speak, but I just wanted to add, in addition to all the comments from Mr. Venegas going over this application, how important a project like this is for Prince William County.

[06:16:34] As he noted, it checks a lot of boxes with regards to what the comprehensive plan is calling for the Sudley Road Corridor. In addition, this also provides more options for housing in terms of housing diversification, not just mixed-use housing, but mixed-use housing at a high quality within a mixed-use multifamily housing within a mixed-use context in an area where our comprehensive plan is calling for exactly this type of development.

[06:17:06] The other benefit to this, particularly with the strong focus on high-quality design, which is something that's very important to me and to our staff, is that this helps to create precedence for future projects for Prince William County, for the types of higher-density development that we're looking for, but frankly, even for other projects that are not necessarily higher-density.

[06:17:29] So, you know, I just wanted to add in my two cents as well to say why we think this is a very important project. Our staff, along with other county staff, Supervisor Gordy and others have worked very closely with the applicant, you know, pushed them in a lot of ways, asked a lot of questions, and demanded or strongly encouraged, strongly encouraged, you know, the consideration of some important factors, not just the design of this project but how it relates to the existing mall and what are some ways to improve the connections between this development and the mall so it's not just you

[06:18:07] know this pretty mixed-use development and you know next door is just to see a parking in the mall itself and so a number of the features that they've included you know are intended to improve the pedestrian experience between this development in the mall these are these are issues that I remember we raised at the very beginning so that we don't have sort of an island with this development next to the mall that will be, you know, essentially the same. So again, just wanted to add those additional perspectives. All right. Thank you so much. Supervisor Gordy. Thank you, Madam Chair. As I said earlier, we've been at this for four years now, working through a lot

[06:18:46] of things, even before the application was submitted. I think it took us almost two years to get the application submitted so very excited about this application and and and as you can tell the applicant has done a lot of work they've checked you know they you know they've really taken a lot of time to make sure that they've created the right type of environment here the I'm while this is in the Brentsville district the Coles district and the Gainesville district are basically across the street.

[06:19:20] So this isn't just about the Brentsville District. This is about, you know, an area that is represented by three board members, and many of our constituents in the surrounding area will be affected here, and I hope in very positive ways.

[06:19:38] I will note, and to the point you had about affordable units, There is an 80-acre farm next door, which is owned by a data center company who will remain nameless. But I have been in conversation with them about what the future of that site looks like to include some affordable units.

[06:19:59] So we're not looking at this in isolation. We're looking at this whole area broadly and working each of the different pieces in this entire corridor. So this is not a once and done. This is part of a bigger strategic plan, but this is step one that will generate and create the type of investment in energy to start drawing the things that we need to accomplish to reinvigorate the Sudley Corridor.

[06:20:30] With that said, Madam Chair, I'm going to move that we approve item 8B. I'm sorry, 13B. Thank you, 13B. Thank you, Madam County Attorney. All right, so Supervisor Frekel and second it.

[06:20:48] All right, so for discussion, let's start. We've got Supervisor Bode Bailey-Angry. Thank you, Madam Chair. I kept everything I was going to say to comments because I didn't really have any questions. I'm going to reiterate some of the things we discussed on our last call, but also start from a different perspective, since I think that I appreciate Suresa Franklin and Gordy talking about the affordable piece.

[06:21:12] Whenever we see projects like this in sort of a center of commerce, where it's the mall, we have all these other retail areas all around this entire corridor, I always like to ask applicants the question, what the price point is. And I know my chief of staff, Emily Guerrero, asked that.

[06:21:28] And there's a big reason why. And we touched upon it when we talked. Because to me, if we're doing mixed use, especially in this area, right, we're not only talking about the people who are going to be moving in to live in a luxury apartment. We're also talking about the people that work at Walmart, that work at the nail salon, that work at the Burger King, and all those other places over there, too.

[06:21:46] Because I get it, first step, but I really want to emphasize that as we continue to look at other developments in this corridor and even other phases of this development, we think about and keep in mind the people that work there too. Because when we're doing the right job, as Mr. Vanderpool said at the outset, we're talking about bringing people in and not pushing people out.

[06:22:08] So as we continue to have luxury apartments, which is great, we need that AMI level. We're also going to need to have folks at some point living in this area that can walk to where they work in the mall. So I wanted to highlight that, number one. Number two, really like the thoughts on transit here. I mentioned on my call with the applicant, you know, NVTA is currently doing a BRT study in the entire region, and part of that goes right into this corridor. So we talked about how Sudley itself may not be the best place for BRT, but Ashton sure could be. So let's start

[06:22:45] talking about that too. The other thing is through NVTA, we had a transit hub study approved and funded for my district. I think we should look at using some of the money from that they're going to be putting forward and other folks to the same exact thing here to get ahead of that transit conversation. Because what we want to do, as was said earlier, is really start to look at what transit and transportation looks like in this area holistically as this builds out because I have no doubt that once this board approves this tonight which I believe will happen it'll send a message we've talked about that right it'll send a message not only to folks

[06:23:23] that might be looking in this area but also be sending messages to developers to the point that have never done business or never even thought about doing business in Prince William County so we need to get that transportation piece locked in as well the schools piece I know we talked about transit buses, but we also need to talk about school buses. Depending on where this gets actually boundaried to, we're going to have to have conversations with the school division about where that bus is going to go to keep kids safer to be waiting for a school bus potentially in this area. So that's another piece. We also talked about EV charging. Now, I know that we

[06:23:58] can't have the entire parking garage and all the parking deck, all EV installed immediately, but we have it EV ready, right? We've seen that happen other places. You're gonna have to go in there and do a bunch of digging to do a bunch of the landscaping and a bunch of the repaving and a bunch of the parking structure building anyway. Might as well have it EV ready knowing that there's going to be, especially in this kind of complex, clientele who are going to want that as an offering. The last thing I'll say is, and I appreciate the talk about it earlier, is what kind of businesses and what is the culture of the business is going to be driving to this area,

[06:24:35] right it's great and we should have a balance where we're bringing in new offerings new folks new destination place making businesses that this area has not seen before but we also have to respect and bring in the folks that may not have been able to move into this part of the county or at least this part of the mall because there's not real estate there i urge the applicant when i talked to him talk to the chambers and not just the prince william chamber of commerce but the Hispanic Chamber, the Black Chamber, the Asian Chamber, and all the other communities that already have existing businesses around there, because I would love for this to uplift them as

[06:25:10] well, and for them to have key real estate and to showcase just the vibrant diversity of businesses and restaurants and retail that we already have there, and so that to be another sort of synergy and catalyst for their development as well. So all in all, great project. I think we We still need to sharpen our pencils a lot more on the affordability piece.

[06:25:32] Again, knowing that we need to have housing for the people who are going to be working there as well. And let's keep talking about the transit piece. Thank you, Madam Chair. Supervisor Bailey. Thank you, Madam Chair. I've got five points, but I'm going to go real quick. One is terminology of sense of place.

[06:25:49] We talk about that when we're campaigning, but you literally showed us that. And that's very important for our citizens to understand and see it with their eyes. The other thing is I'm going back to live, work, and play. We also talk about that when we're campaigning, but you actually showed that here in your demonstration, in your presentation.

[06:26:11] And that's very key for our residents to see that you have them in mind when we talk about that and bringing it in a sense of place. The third thing is I'm so excited about the transit piece because oftentimes when we talk about building and where we're going to put where in green space or wherever it's going to be, We don't talk about the things around it or what's needed.

[06:26:35] Now we're talking about biking. That was in the public speaking. Someone talked about that. We're talking about transportation and how you, the developer, is going to talk with us to invest in that. That's very important for our residents to understand as well.

[06:26:50] And I like that we got instant gratification from Ms. Slosberg. She's right. That really made me happy when she responded in that way because I understand how she feels about land use and all of that. But she referred that back to something we talked about earlier when we were talking about the housing piece, and that's our young folk.

[06:27:09] She referred to her son. And so for you to have a vision for the next generation is very key with this project. And then lastly, revitalization and redevelopment. That's something that we can learn together as we go forward with this.

[06:27:26] You have the space to do that now and where the Manassas Mall is. But I want to say there's opportunity in the county as we go, as we build this county, the vision of this county, to serve this county in a higher level.

[06:27:43] And I keep saying that because that's what you demonstrated tonight. And so I'm going to support this because it really brought it home of what we're trying to do with the comprehensive plan. It brought it home what we're trying to do with transportation. It brought it home when we focus on the next generation, and that's imperative.

[06:28:02] Thank you, Madam Chair. Supervisor Angry. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wanted to save my comments to the end. You know, we've gone through this project, and you know I absolutely love it. And thank you, Supervisor Gordy, for talking about that extra 90 acres. One of the things, as we discussed in this project, is that I understand that corridor is very similar to much of the Neapsel district.

[06:28:26] We have homes that are affordable. What we needed was a facelift of real good quality, and that was the courts district. What you're doing here, I love to see that quality build that you're doing, because we can take care of that next piece of newer affordable units still in the same area of the project, which makes a whole lot of sense because there's a lot of revitalization that can happen in that corridor, and it's very clear when you hear from residents who've lived here their whole life and know what it looks like and what it's going to be reimagined to look like.

[06:29:03] So I love everything about it. I know the gentleman speaking about the bikes and the walkability. Those are some things. I think we need to get ready in Prince William County to really understand those electric scooters and all that stuff. I'm scared of it because I feel like they go too fast and a car can easily whip out in front of them.

[06:29:21] But there's something we're going to have to get used to because that really is modern day. And we're not doing a lot of that here in Prince William County. So we have to catch up and grow up. And I think this is a really good project in mid-county to create all of that to spur out. And I just want to say, because you've got a North Woodbridge project that I'm really excited to see get to this phase.

[06:29:44] We've got the courts. We now have what we're doing with the mall. We've got Potomac Shores. You know, we're not even going to talk about games. You've got Robert Trent Jones, and that's all you need out there. Oh, that's still? That's still? Oh, wow. Brentsville just, it's really big.

[06:30:02] You know, but you still got very nice developments happening there on that Gainesville side. So my, yeah, well, it's true, but that's the money. But my point is that the county is literally growing in the areas where we can spark all of this birth that really helps in some of this revitalization.

[06:30:18] I think what we're doing right now is brilliant, and I really appreciate all these efforts. So thank you very much. Supervisor Franklin. Sure, yeah. Well, Supervisor Weir has Haymarket, which is actually a beautiful corridor and has some nice pop shops.

[06:30:34] No, it's very nice. I enjoy going to the Hilton restaurant down there. But I will say that this is a very good project. Agree on the affordability piece. But I think we've kind of made our point there, and I'm glad you pointed out about the parcels next to it that actually does have some affordability there.

[06:30:53] So I think that's important. Supervisor Angry kind of took what I was going to say in terms of this is important because it helps the overall county as well. Similarly to what we're doing in Northwood Bridge, no matter where residents go or even visitors go in this county, they ought to feel a sense of place.

[06:31:13] And this kind of just adds to those projects that Supervisor Angry mentioned, and that's why it's incredibly important. We talk about development and how a lot of the development these days is actually happening in the West simply because that's where a lot of the land is.

[06:31:31] But this is a corridor that's actually been around for a long time that needs a makeover and a facelift. And I think that this is a very good project to do so. I hope that we're bringing in a number of diverse businesses to complement what's already in the commercial corridor.

[06:31:48] And it sounds like we are going to do diversity of housing in that area. So I think that's important, too. But I just wanted to really make the point that no matter where you go in this county, you ought to feel a sense of place. And I think we've slowly been building those communities over the past several years.

[06:32:06] Thank you. All right. I'm going to quickly close out. I mean, because. Excuse me. I'm sorry. Chair Jefferson. We need to make sure that in the motion that we include the approval of waiver 2025-00153, which is in the back of the document, which is approval for waiver of 20% reduction in parking.

[06:32:29] The applicant, you know, has experienced in their developments that that much parking isn't required in their experience. but staff wanted to, staff believed 15% was the top we should go to, but the applicant requested 20%, and the board can approve the waiver.

[06:32:51] So I want to make sure that when we make that motion, we include the approval of waiver 2025-00153. So I move that as described. Thank you. I like that. I like that.

[06:33:10] All right, so what I was saying, this is indeed a project for the future. And we need more forward-looking development in this county. I mean, obviously, again, people have mentioned other projects we have, North Woodbridge, the Courts District. And I'm excited to add this onto the list. What I really like, it's a redevelopment, which is what we need. You know, we need redevelopment in this county. We need to reimagine older projects. I like that it's transit-oriented. And I do think this will not

[06:33:45] just attract younger workers, but there's also, I've been reading a lot of articles about older people who may want to downsize, who don't want that house anymore, or who may want to be in a walkable community or want something that's a little bit more urbane. And I think this is going to be a very vibrant community for us. So I'm very excited to do this. I'm very excited to vote in favor of this because again this is a vote not for who we are today and i said this earlier you know we have to stop thinking about who we are today or who we were yesterday but who are we going to be tomorrow and this is exactly what we need this is the right project at the right time

[06:34:25] and indeed yes it is a catalyst for change um so with that i would like to um call for the vote vote unanimous supervisor vega absent from vote all right thank you so very much Madam Chair.

[06:34:42] Supervisor Gardner? I would just like to make note that Mike Vanderpool has been working land use cases in Prince William County for quite some time. And this is his last one. He is officially retiring as of right now.

[06:35:01] Happy retirement. Wait, wait, wait. Can I get that in writing? You can throw him on the retirement party. There you go, Bob. I'm volunteering you, voluntolding. His wife's here, so she's here to make sure that that actually happens.

[06:35:17] So, no, thank you, Mike, for your partnership in this case particularly, and thank you for your service to our community. Thank you. Thank you so very much. All right. Move to adjourn. No, we got public comment time. I don't know what to say.

[06:35:37] All right, we are moving on to public comment time. I know I've got to let a few folks out of here.

[06:36:38] All right, we are moving on to public comment time. Thank you for everyone who has stayed with us or who, I guess, came in a little bit later. But thank you, everyone, who is still here. So we have one person right now signed up for public comment time, and that's Mr. Bill Bilead.

[06:36:55] Billard? Billard. All right. All right, sir, state your name, where you generally reside, and you have three minutes. Madam Chair, members of the board, I'm Bill Billard, Manassas Coles, Supervisor Angry.

[06:37:11] Happy birthday to you. I was about to call you sir, but Sergeant Major, I think, is more appropriate for you, so glad I caught myself with that. Well, I heard the board passed a proclamation earlier in today's meeting proclaiming June as Pride Month. Now, let me say that I support gay rights, and what two consenting adults do in the bedroom is none of the government's business.

[06:37:35] And I have a history of being a vocal opponent of the Westboro Baptist Church, and I wouldn't even call them a church. They are nothing but a hate cult. I don't know if y'all remember them, but they were just horrible people. But, and I would also add that the biggest saints in my life, and I'm sure in society and many of our personal lives, just happen to be gay.

[06:37:58] However, their sexuality is not their identity. And one's sexuality should never be that person's identity. We should look at their heart. And I would also add, there is a dark history behind the pride flag.

[06:38:13] the godfather of the movement. His name was Harvey Milk. He was the first openly gay man to serve or to be elected in a public service position. And he also served in the Navy, which is great. Nobody should be, you know, barred from serving as an elected official because of their sexual orientation. However, I'm going to remind you all of the dark history of this man. He was a sexual predator who preyed upon underage boys, teenage boys, one as young as 14, and I think one of them

[06:38:47] committed suicide. Therefore, I don't believe the pride flag should be flown on government buildings and we should be aware of the history of the sexual abuse and deviancy behind it. And we've seen some echoes today within public schools. There's been reports of children being exposed to the sexually explicit material. And also in some of these pride parades, there's been

[06:39:20] a lot of sexual acts going on that it's being exposed to children. That should be condemned. It is sick, it's disgusting, and it's abusive. Now, with that being said, June has a lot more holidays that are a lot more important that we should recognize. June 6th is D-Day. June 14th is flag day june 14th is also the united states army's birthday 250th anniversary this year and that is something to celebrate and there's also father's day where we commemorate all fathers

[06:40:00] across america that includes godfathers pastors priests mentors i'm sorry sugar daddies don't count and above all god the father in heaven now i've always been hearing people and these activists they say love is love well that reminds me the words of christ when he says greater love hath no man than him for him to lay down his life for his friend so for all you believers there

[06:40:32] who believe i'd like to for you to take this month to commemorate the sacred heart of jesus because through his through him and through his sacrifice and what he did for us that's where you can find true love and as for the county is concerned please recognize these holidays that i've mentioned before also there's also the galveston holiday galveston texas holiday which commemorates the end of slavery so there's there's multiple heck it's more than one two three four yeah that's that's five so let's commemorate america and be patriotic during this month thank

[06:41:11] you thank you do we have anyone online move to adjourn second do we really need to take a vote let's see let me wait for a minute i think about oh wait yes call it call the question we will go ahead and vote.

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